Why not follow the books more closely?

[henrywho]

17 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It’s very hard to judge things in a vacuum. For instance, I could see a reworking of the plot where Callandor is exchanged for the Bowl of the Winds and is found by Nyn and Elayne. This would be a huge change from the books and I could very easily find that it doesn’t work at all. On the other hand, it could be written very well and work flawlessly. My perception of whether it was still the “Wheel of Time” would depend entirely on the execution. 

Nifty indeed considering that Rand is the ONLY person who can pull it from the stone. So now anyone could have walked up and taken it... so why haven't one of the dark ones done so. Every change has repercussions. 

[Samt]

21 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

It’s very hard to judge things in a vacuum. For instance, I could see a reworking of the plot where Callandor is exchanged for the Bowl of the Winds and is found by Nyn and Elayne. This would be a huge change from the books and I could very easily find that it doesn’t work at all. On the other hand, it could be written very well and work flawlessly. My perception of whether it was still the “Wheel of Time” would depend entirely on the execution. 

So they use the Bowl of the Winds to trap Moridin and re-bind the dark one?  How does that work?

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, henrywho said:

So now anyone could have walked up and taken it... so why haven't one of the dark ones done so.

Obviously I can’t tell you that since it’s a hypothetical. Which is my entire point. I can’t judge something that I haven’t seen. 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Samt said:

So they use the Bowl of the Winds to trap Moridin and re-bind the dark one?  How does that work?

I’m hypothesizing a change that could potentially break the series for me. I’ll not know “how it works” until I see it. 
 

I can say it’s hard for me to fathom that being a workable change. But I wouldn’t know if it worked until I saw it. That’s how hypotheticals work. 

[henrywho]

17 hours ago, Kaleb said:

  

I see that...

I just mean that, like Harry Potter, like LOTR, like the four Gospels, there are multiple official ("canon") versions of the same story,

 

What are these "official cannon" versions of TWoT you refer to.

[henrywho]

17 hours ago, Kaleb said:

 which adds to the richness of the dialogue around all of them. I'm grateful for the depth and alternate perspectives on the same story.

 

I am not. It detracts from the original until it varies so much from the source to insult it.

[henrywho]

17 hours ago, Kaleb said:

The columns of Rhuidean is a vivid illustration of that point, where many potential Aiel leaders are so invested in their self-conception as a proud warrior culture that they literally claw their eyes out when faced with a version of the truth that undermines the story they've been telling themselves. I see book purists who fall back to claiming that "the Prime adaptation shouldn't even be called The Wheel Of Time" in much the same way.

No again. The Aiel point you make here is incorrect. The Aiel story, in the books at least, was deliberately changed by, we can assume, the wise ones so as to try and hold the Aiel together. Common knowledge of the truth about their split and self exile to the 3 fold land would have destroyed their community completely, or so it was felt. They, or at least some in authority, chose to alter the truth. This is fundamentally different to your point. A point of course I do not agree with.

[Elder_Haman]

12 minutes ago, henrywho said:

I am not. It detracts from the original until it varies so much from the source to insult it.

Again. Please refrain from this type of language. You are not in the position to arbitrate what constitutes an “insult”

to the source material. 

[Elder_Haman]

3 minutes ago, henrywho said:

No again. The Aiel point you make here is incorrect. The Aiel story, in the books at least, was deliberately changed by, we can assume, the wise ones so as to try and hold the Aiel together. Common knowledge of the truth about their split and self exile to the 3 fold land would have destroyed their community completely, or so it was felt. They, or at least some in authority, chose to alter the truth. This is fundamentally different to your point. A point of course I do not agree with.

You didn’t say anything here that contradicts @Kaleb’s point. 

[henrywho]

15 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Again. Please refrain from this type of language. You are not in the position to arbitrate what constitutes an “insult”

to the source material. 

 

15 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

 

I have a brain and free will. All I am doing here is stating a opposite opinion to the statement "adds to the richness of the dialogue". A statement I fervently disagree with. There is no arbitration only an emphatic declaration of opinion.

Edited April 10 by henrywho
typo

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, henrywho said:

 

I have a brain and free will. All I am doing here is stating an opposite opinion to the statement "adds to the richness of the dialogue". A statement I fervently disagree with. There is no arbitration only and emphatic declaration of opinion.

Saying something is an insult to the source material is not the opposite of saying that the changes “add to the richness of the dialogue.”

 

The opposite would be to say that the dialogue is poor, or wooden, or derivative or that it detracts from the character or doesn’t match the tone, etc. 

 

The opposite of “insulting the source material” would be a claim that the show is superior to the books in all respects and is a clear improvement over the original. 

[henrywho]

11 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You didn’t say anything here that contradicts @Kaleb’s point. 

Everything I wrote contradicts it. His point was to suggest that the lie the majority of the Aiel live under, regards their own history, affirms his statement about all stories being misunderstandings etc etc. I stated that it is not as the Aiel story is a deliberate alteration by them a flat out lie.

Edited April 10 by henrywho
typo

[henrywho]

8 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Saying something is an insult to the source material is not the opposite of saying that the changes “add to the richness of the dialogue.”

 

The opposite would be to say that the dialogue is poor, or wooden, or derivative or that it detracts from the character or doesn’t match the tone, etc. 

 

The opposite of “insulting the source material” would be a claim that the show is superior to the books in all respects and is a clear improvement over the original. 

I find it insulting that anyone, especially the writers of this series, could have the gall to believe they could do a better job of TWoT than the author. It's clear that's how they think or they would have stayed the course and adhered more closely to the books. I know a word for word scene for scene reproduction is impractical for the most part. But these ... "writers" have made fundamental changes from the 1st episode and they naturally cascade through the rest of their story now. IF they had managed the miracle of making a better story I'd be among the first to congratulate them. But they have not. Not only have they not but they have detracted from it significantly.

It should go without stating, but I feel a need to, that these are my opinions, shared by others as are most opinions are, even if they do not contribute here.

 

[Samt]

4 minutes ago, henrywho said:

I find it insulting that anyone, especially the writers of this series, could have the gall to believe they could do a better job of TWoT than the author. It's clear that's how they think or they would have stayed the course and adhered more closely to the books. I know a word for word scene for scene reproduction is impractical for the most part. But these ... "writers" have made fundamental changes from the 1st episode and they naturally cascade through the rest of their story now. IF they had managed the miracle of making a better story I'd be among the first to congratulate them. But they have not. Not only have they not but they have detracted from it significantly.

It should go without stating, but I feel a need to, that these are my opinions, shared by others as are most opinions are, even if they do not contribute here.

 

Agreed.  It's a weird combination of sloth and hubris, where they assume they can do it better without bothering to understand it in the first place.

[henrywho]

5 minutes ago, henrywho said:

 But these ... "writers" have made fundamental changes from the 1st episode and they naturally cascade through the rest of their story now.

 

To quote myself here. It IS THEIR story now. It would be far more accurate, and they may have kept more of the books fan base, if they had called the series something else and had simply put

"Inspired by The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan" in the opening credits.

[Elder_Haman]

46 minutes ago, henrywho said:

Everything I wrote contradicts it. His point was to suggest that the lie the majority of the Aiel live under, regards their own history, affirms his statement about all stories being misunderstandings etc etc. I stated that it is not as the Aiel story is a deliberate alteration by them a flat out lie.

One of the themes running through the Wheel of Time novels is how imperfect information and poor communication leads to problems, even at a societal level. To illustrate this, @Kaleb wrote, "many potential Aiel leaders are so invested in their self-conception as a proud warrior culture that they literally claw their eyes out when faced with a version of the truth that undermines the story they've been telling themselves." This is entirely true. It doesn't matter whether the story of the Aiel was deliberately subverted or subverted unintentionally, @Kaleb's statement is correct in every respect.

 

 

[henrywho]

16 hours ago, Kaleb said:

Perhaps we'll find out! But through season 2, it's clearly an adaptation of The Wheel Of Time.

 

Again I disagree. With every episode the series becomes less and less TWoT.

Interestingly the more of this forum I read the more I agree with my statement above.  Mostly inspired by comments made by those on the other side of my point of view.

 

Just to reiterate a previous statement. I do get some entertainment from the series. It's far from GoT or Shadow and Bone or Warrior Nun or The Witcher or many others, but so long as I forget that I've read the books it's passable as a show. By passable I mean, assuming I had never read the books, I would rate it 5 out of 10 maybe a 6 on IMDB.

[Elder_Haman]

25 minutes ago, henrywho said:

I find it insulting that anyone, especially the writers of this series, could have the gall to believe they could do a better job of TWoT than the author. It's clear that's how they think or they would have stayed the course and adhered more closely to the books. I know a word for word scene for scene reproduction is impractical for the most part. But these ... "writers" have made fundamental changes from the 1st episode and they naturally cascade through the rest of their story now. IF they had managed the miracle of making a better story I'd be among the first to congratulate them. But they have not. Not only have they not but they have detracted from it significantly.

It should go without stating, but I feel a need to, that these are my opinions, shared by others as are most opinions are, even if they do not contribute here.

And you have communicated that. But again, this is a forum designed for elevated, reasoned discussion. It is not a Reddit thread for spleen venting about how much you hate the show. Your hyperbolic tone is the opposite of what we are after here. It is possible, easy even, to have articulate, polite and reasoned discussion about the things you don't like about the show without resorting to these type of gatekeeping statements.

 

The overwrought language is exhausting and detracts from the enjoyment people find here.

[Samt]

Just now, henrywho said:

Just to reiterate a previous statement. I do get some entertainment from the series. It's far from GoT or Shadow and Bone or Warrior Nun or The Witcher or many others, but so long as I forget that I've read the books it's passable as a show. By passable I mean, assuming I had never read the books, I would rate it 5 out of 10 maybe a 6 on IMDB.

I've said before, I feel like it's a fine show if you don't think about it too much.  It's kind of like "Xena" or "The Expendables."  It exists in the moment of action and emotion and shouldn't be taken seriously or literally.  And to be clear, I like "Xena" and "The Expendables."  They just aren't anything like the WoT books. 

[henrywho]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

One of the themes running through the Wheel of Time novels is how imperfect information and poor communication leads to problems, even at a societal level. To illustrate this, @Kaleb wrote, "many potential Aiel leaders are so invested in their self-conception as a proud warrior culture that they literally claw their eyes out when faced with a version of the truth that undermines the story they've been telling themselves." This is entirely true. It doesn't matter whether the story of the Aiel was deliberately subverted or subverted unintentionally, @Kaleb's statement is correct in every respect.

 

 

You've taken him out of the context of his and my discussion and what you have said here I inferred in my reply to him. Except the point, in the context of his and my discussion, that the deliberate subversion of the Aiel truth does contradict his statement.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, henrywho said:

You've taken him out of the context of his and my discussion and what you have said here I inferred in my reply to him. Except the point, in the context of his and my discussion, that the deliberate subversion of the Aiel truth does contradict his statement.

No. It doesn't at all. 

“The Wheel of Time turns, and Ages come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Age that gave it birth comes again."

What does "memories become legend" mean? Well, a legend is defined as:

Quote

An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical.

Thus, the phrase means that the real memories of the people who experienced the events are retold and altered, causing those events to be sensationalized and diverting from the actual facts of what happened.

 

How about "Legend fades to myth"? Well a myth is: 

Quote

A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society.

So, the phrase means that the legendary stories that have been created from real events are further sensationalized, becoming supernatural and entirely removed from the actual facts of what happened.

 

@Kaleb's original proposition was entirely correct. And you've entirely missed one of the key themes of the novels. (Not to mention that your notion that the theme of the Wheel of Time is that 'good will prevail if we make good choices' is not even close to a core theme.)

[henrywho]

I feel some people may have forgotten what this forum thread is actually called. Let me state it here.

 

• Wheel of Time TV Show
• Why not follow the books more closely?

I believe this clarifies my feelings on the series completely.

It would appear that some of us, myself included, have strayed.

 

To answer the question asked in the topic directly. Arrogance and stupidity. The first by simply believing, with no foundation, that they could write a better story.

The second by increasing the cost and complexity of production. By not simply editing and scripting the books the writers have infinitely more work to do, possibly their motivation for the drastic changes, more work more money for them.

[henrywho]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

(Not to mention that your notion that the theme of the Wheel of Time is that 'good will prevail if we make good choices' is not even close to a core theme.)

How in blazes do you go from

"Be true to who you really are and good always defeats evil eventually. "

to

'good will prevail if we make good choices'

 

Written as is I can't see it. Maybe I could have written it thus.

Be true to who you really are. Good always defeats evil eventually.

?? I don't see the difference.

I see no correlation between what I actually wrote and what you incorrectly paraphrased.

[Elder_Haman]

10 minutes ago, henrywho said:

To answer the question asked in the topic directly. Arrogance and stupidity. The first by simply believing, with no foundation, that they could write a better story.

Again, there is no need for the provocative language and insults. 
 

My answer: because they are trying to make a successful television show and feel that the changes serve that end. 

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, henrywho said:

How in blazes do you go from

"Be true to who you really are and good always defeats evil eventually. "

to

'good will prevail if we make good choices'

 

Written as is I can't see it. Maybe I could have written it thus.

Be true to who you really are. Good always defeats evil eventually.

?? I don't see the difference.

I see no correlation between what I actually wrote and what you incorrectly paraphrased.

Well it makes no difference. Your original formulation is also incorrect.