Question on Lan

[Samitsu]

actually Perrin has surrendered all pretense at raising manetheren.

 

And you believed him?HA?

[Jellybelly]

Yeah, we all know Perrin is known to break promises.

[Blademaster]

hey, back to Lan and Shaidar Haran, how would that be an even fight? Isn't SH the physical embodiment of the little bit of the DO that's free? If that's the case, then I don't think Lan can kill him. that could mean killing the DO and perhaps only Rand can do that (although personally I don't think anyone can. methinks the DO can only be sealed away)

[Inara]

it might not be even, but it would be awesome...

[Luckers]

I think it unlikely that either Manetheren or Malkier will be remade. It's too romantic for RJ's style.

[Inara]

sad but true

[hapazard]

+ they would have to crush Andor to make Manetheran come again...

[Blade]

hey, I'm all for Perrin kicking Elayne's trash. She deserves to get knocked down a rung or five. I simply hate how she's automatically assuming that the two rivers is part of her kingdom and I would love to see them assert their independence.

[ono-neko]

As Morgase and Elayne have said in the past that Two Rivers hasn't seen any officials/taxmen from Andor for several generations. That in itself for me is the pronouncement of the fact that Andor has neglected/disowned Two Rivers. You've left them, you can't just go back in and say "Hey, you are still part of ours". But then, I guess it's all politics, and I hate politics :)

 

I say Two Rivers has the right to seperate from Andor and be independent. Let Manetheran rises to its former glory again!

[rd2000]

Manatheren's former glory includes being larger in size than Andor.

[Inara]

there is a quote in one of the books, 'rulers tend to believe lines on a map'

there is no way that the two rivers is not part of andor, just because they have not paid any tax lately. if there had been a mass attack on the two rivers by another nation (hypothetically)

the queen would not hesitate in sending a legion of men to garrison the area.

it is ALL politics

 

i think that it should now be a 'duchy' or randland equivalent under the queen and be called menetheren, or something to do with it. it is fast becoming a town in its own right and should be treated as such by the capital...garrisons, taxes and all.

[Kaznen]

You know, the Two Rivers is on Gheldean's(?) northern border. And the Queen is Perrin's Liege Lady. And the battle of Malden(I think that was the town's name) made hundreds of Thousand of refuges. So I think it is a possbility that they will settle the Forest of Shadows and the queen will want easy access to her Liege Lord so they build a highway from Jhehnna(?) to Devon Ride and through the Two Rivers to Terrin Ferry.

 

I'm sure Perrin would find an engineer who could design a bridge across the white river, Perrin could probaly do it himself.

 

Then Perrin could send a letter to Elayne stating how Andor has failed Two Rivers in its time of need and succeed from Andor and become a part of Gheledan(?).

 

I could also see Perrin implementing the new technologies from Carahein's school and the Terren River would be a strong barrier against the Queen's Guard.

 

And if Elyane still insists on fighting, there is alway Two Rivers' OTHER famous son, Mat Cauthorn.

 

I could also see Altara and Illian joining with Gheledan(?) in this war.

[bcxanth]

If anything I believe Perrin will submit to Elayne, giving her back not only the Two Rivers, but adding in Gheldan as well. I don't see Perrin as someone who would be willing to lead a nation, but I think Faile could eventually get him to accept being a Lord.

[Kaznen]

Selling out Gheleden(?) would be bad form. Moreover, that would violate the oath he swore to the queen (whose name I can't remember). He swore specifically(?) to protect her from being overthrown or taken over by a foreign country. Remember when he told the Banner General that the Seanchan couldn't have Gheledan(?) and how she was relived he said that. He was keeping his end of the oath.

[bcxanth]

He wouldn't be selling them out. He is the Lord of the Two Rivers, which is a province of Andor. Alliandre(sp?) submitted to Perrin and swore fealty to him. Therefore she basically made herself subject to Andor. That's the way feudal politics works.

 

Imagine it this way. Imagine for some reason the King of Monoco swore fealty to the Prince of Wales. The Prince of Wales is subject to the Queen of England. Therefore, indirectly, France would pretty much become a part of England.

[Kaznen]

But she didn't swear to Perrin because he was a lord of Andor. She swore to him because in the hierarchy of Dragonsworn (I do believe there is one, and Aiel are also included) he is at the top, save for Rand, and the position is shared only by Mat.

 

She was swearing to Perrin because Perrin was sworn to Rand. And for Perrin and Mat their loyalties first and foremost belong to Rand.

 

Remember Perrin doesn't see Two Rivers as part of Andor despite what the maps say. He sees Two Rivers as independent of any national power.

[bcxanth]

It doesn't matter what she saw really. She still swore to Perrin. And though he may not see the Two Rivers as part of Andor right now, I think that will change.

[Guest Majsju]

We will most likely see a few changes in how the world is divided into nations. But, I'm quite convinced those changes will result in new nations springing up, not old, dead ones being brought back.

[rd2000]

RJ has shown that while Perrin has no wish to resurrect Manatheren, many of his followers do. I think that if Perrin gains any lands and titles of nobility, it will be through his marriage to Faile.

Perrin has no ambition for personal glory, but his wife is a different story I believe.

[Aviendha]

Alliandre definitely only gave oath to Perin because Rand himself wasn't there. Her oath is to Rand via Perin. But yes it's compilcated. Don't forget the Broken Crown! Perhaps Perin becomes a lord in saldaea? or perhaps the world is so broken again that nothing is as it was.

[Kaznen]

Also as far as the nobitly of Andor are concerned Perrin isn't a real lord. So his "household" holds no loyalty to the Lion Throne, whoever sits on it. I have wondered why Elyane didn't visit Two Rivers, or send one of the Kin as merchants or peddlars, to investigate.

 

And once she learned it was not rebellion why she didn't visit herself to get soldiers. Tam knew about Andor and 2000 Two Rivers longbowmen could have reaaly made a difference in the siege. They shoot farther then regaular bows and have a rate of fire much faster then crossbows even if they have the "new crank" (a bow can loose about 12 shots a minute).

[Inara]

thats right

 

but

the prince of wales is sworn to the queen, he speaks that oath

perrin (as far as i can remember) has never sworn fealt to anyone...

so alliandre is his, not rand's...

thus, alliandre is secure on her throne as long as she is perrin's, so there will be no annexing

 

i dont know why elayne didnt send for the two rivers men during the siege, except that she probably thought they were all farmers. there is no garrision there.

[Kaznen]

Even though Mat and Perrin haven't spoken oaths to Rand, being part of the ta'veren triangle, it's implied.

 

Remember how Perrin mustered the forces to rescue Rand. He led that army, even though Rhurac or Dobraine have much more experience in marshalling an army. They followed him because they new in Rand's hierarchy of command Perrin is on the second tier, first tier being Rand, And they, and Berlain, were only on the third tier.

[Inara]

he led because he was the only one who ALL of the others would follow

ie...he was impartial, and capable

thus the best leader

[Aviendha]

I think that Alliandre actually makes a comment to the effect "seeing that the Dragon Reborn isn't here, you'll do in his stead" and then speaks her oath. And Perin knows this is the case - and he's honest down to his boot nails.

 

How far out did Elayne go to gather her troops? She probably only visited those places she knew would support her - and as the 2Rivers wasn't previously in focus for either Ellayne or her mother it wouldn't have been a place that come to mind when she went out to ask for help. She went to people she thought would support her claim.