Question about logain

[DigificWriter]

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Perhaps.  Time will tell.

 

You don't have to agree with the decisions that Rafe and Co. have made, but there's a difference between disagreeing with their decisions and openly doubting or downplaying their actual conpetence/abilities as storytellers by questioning the level of thought behind the decisions that have been made and the ramifications/ripple effects of said decisions.

Edited August 10, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Scarloc99]

On 8/9/2023 at 1:44 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

Rafe and others involved with the show have flat-out stated that the underlying lore of the WoT world has been changed vis-a-vis reincarnation.

 

The concept of female Dragons is not an "unreliable narrator" scenario; it's the manifestation of an actual literal lore change, and one that has been admitted to upfront by the creators of the show.

Where is that quote? I have seen people claim it yet be unable to actually point to it anywhere. In making Morraine "think: the dragon might be female they did not at any point indicate a clear cut lore change to allow it to be so. 

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

You don't have to agree with the decisions that Rafe and Co. have made, but there's a difference between disagreeing with their decisions and openly doubting or downplaying their actual conpetence/abilities as storytellers by questioning the level of thought behind the decisions that have been made and the ramifications/ripple effects of said decisions.

Yes, there is a difference. 

[Elder_Haman]

On 8/9/2023 at 6:44 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

The concept of female Dragons is not an "unreliable narrator" scenario; it's the manifestation of an actual literal lore change, and one that has been admitted to upfront by the creators of the show.

Uh. No. This is just wrong. 

[DigificWriter]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Uh. No. This is just wrong. 

 

It's not, though.

 

I can no longer find the source, but Rafe did post comments about himself and the other writers having changed the underlying lore of the WoT novels in order to conceptually degender Souls.

 

He also additionally stated - and emphasized - a separate change that had been made with regards to the Prophecies of the Dragon but that came about as a consequence of the degendering of Souls: making the validity of said Prophecies something that was in question due to the passage of time and the flaws of human translation.

[Elder_Haman]

All he said was that souls could be reborn as either male or female. 
 

The rest is entirely about the unreliable nature of centuries old prophecies and how political entities like the Tower interpret them to suit their own preconceptions and narratives. 
 

The Dragon is (and was always going to be) Rand, a male. 

[DigificWriter]

9 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

All he said was that souls could be reborn as either male or female. 
 

The rest is entirely about the unreliable nature of centuries old prophecies and how political entities like the Tower interpret them to suit their own preconceptions and narratives. 
 

The Dragon is (and was always going to be) Rand, a male. 

 

Yes.

 

Even if there was no actual consideration given to ultimately changing the identity of the Dragon, Rafe and Co. nonetheless gave themselves pre-emptive justification for doing so by changing the metaphysical nature of reincarnation in the WoT universe as established by Robert Jordan by making it so that, within the world of their TV adaptation, male souls could be reborn in female bodies and vice versa, and admitted as much.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Yes.

 

Even if there was no actual consideration given to ultimately changing the identity of the Dragon, Rafe and Co. nonetheless gave themselves pre-emptive justification for doing so by changing the metaphysical nature of reincarnation in the WoT universe as established by Robert Jordan by making it so that, within the world of their TV adaptation, male souls could be reborn in female bodies and vice versa, and admitted as much.

So? In the end, did this change anything? I generally agree that the “who is the Dragon” arc was mediocre. But it had ZERO impact on the actual plot. It’s a tempest in a teapot. 

[DigificWriter]

4 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

So? In the end, did this change anything?

 

IMO, yes, it did change things by adding a layer of genuine unpredictability to the early narrative because there was no guarantee that the identity of the Dragon would in fact be the same in the show as in the books.

 

I would also argue that it changed things by allowing Rafe and Co. to add layers to Egwene, Matt, Nynaeve, and Perrin's individual characters by offering hints as to why each of them might potentially be the Dragon Reborn.

[expat]

7 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

IMO, yes, it did change things by adding a layer of genuine unpredictability to the early narrative because there was no guarantee that the identity of the Dragon would in fact be the same in the show as in the books.

 

I would also argue that it changed things by allowing Rafe and Co. to add layers to Egwene, Matt, Nynaeve, and Perrin's individual characters by offering hints as to why each of them might potentially be the Dragon Reborn.

Even if true (and I don't think it is), why was this bad?  Extra layers of characterization early in the series for our main characters is good, isn't it?  Putting a hook into season 1 to entice viewers, even if you feel that wasn't well executed, is good isn't it?  We want more viewers because it gives us a better chance of having 8 seasons.

[DigificWriter]

7 minutes ago, expat said:

Even if true (and I don't think it is), why was this bad?  Extra layers of characterization early in the series for our main characters is good, isn't it?  Putting a hook into season 1 to entice viewers, even if you feel that wasn't well executed, is good isn't it?  We want more viewers because it gives us a better chance of having 8 seasons.

 

I didn't say that these things were bad.

 

Also, why do you doubt the veracity of what I pointed out? The evidence of using the potentiality of Matt, Egwene, Perrin, and Nynaeve being the Dragon Reborn to add layers to their characterizations is there onscreen, and we also have Rafe's own words as proof of the lore changes that facilitated the deepening of those characters' arcs.

[expat]

Normally when people complain about something they think it's bad.

 

I agree with Elder_Haman, there was no lore change and the misdirection of the possibility of a women dragon was an instance of unreliable narrator.

[DigificWriter]

3 hours ago, expat said:

Normally when people complain about something they think it's bad.

 

I wasn't complaining, though.

 

Also, I found the article where Rafe mentioned the de-gendering of souls, and said article also contains a direct reference to the potentiality of female Dragons.

https://gizmodo.com/adapting-the-wheel-of-time-for-tv-is-an-epic-all-its-ow-1848026456

Edited August 13, 2023 by DigificWriter

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I would add that IMO in the books, especially if you include NS, there was the clear illustration that from 20 years ago, the key “dragon hunters” were basically searching for a needle in a haystack. They tracked down every woman who gave birth within a certain radius. Sure they may have known that they were able to focus their broad search down to male babies in the books, but I allowed for the lose gender knowledge in the show as a way to efficiently demonstrate how and why it has been such a painstaking and long term journey for moiraine to narrow in on who and where to look for and then verify the dragon reborn for a certainty. 

Edited August 13, 2023 by Lightfriendsocialmistress

[Elder_Haman]

16 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

Also, why do you doubt the veracity of what I pointed out? The evidence of using the potentiality of Matt, Egwene, Perrin, and Nynaeve being the Dragon Reborn to add layers to their characterizations is there onscreen, and we also have Rafe's own words as proof of the lore changes that facilitated the deepening of those characters' arcs.

The place where I took issue was that you said it "wasn't an instance of unreliable narrator" or something like that. Whereas I took it to be exactly that.

[DigificWriter]

17 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The place where I took issue was that you said it "wasn't an instance of unreliable narrator" or something like that. Whereas I took it to be exactly that.

 

What I said is true, though. The "Dragon could be a woman" thing isn't a case of "unreliable narrator" syndrome, and Rafe's own words - which, as noted, I was finally able to find - unequivocally demonstrate that.

 

Per the article I found:

Quote

io9: Speaking of, the show’s seemingly biggest change from the books is the revelation that a female character could be a potential Dragon Reborn, whereas in the books the Dragon is exclusively male.

Judkins: I think the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn’t necessarily need to only be a male character, that’s really important. We see that play out in a number of different ways through the season. Also, as we learn, some of the Dragons of the past were women. How was that different? How did that affect the world? So that one change that we’ve made, it really does flutter through the whole series. I think it’s good to make changes like that and to put them in the show, even if it does have those effects.

 

[expat]

11 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

I wasn't complaining, though.

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

[expat]

57 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

What I said is true, though. The "Dragon could be a woman" thing isn't a case of "unreliable narrator" syndrome, and Rafe's own words - which, as noted, I was finally able to find - unequivocally demonstrate that.

As I said above, misdirection.  It's like an indicted person claiming something in an out of court statement that they don't say in the trial.  Example, someone claims that their innocent because they were in Paris at the time of the crime, then in court don't raise an alibi defense while under oath.  The non-oath statements mean nothing if they aren't followed up with statements under oath.  If Rafe had said in non-cannon statements that souls were gendered, wouldn't that have totally killed the 'who is the dragon" arc for season 1?   The fact that the lore didn't change in the series is a better indication than statements designed to highlight a major series arc.

Did Jordon always tell the full truth in book signings and other publicity events, or did he occasionally lay a few false trails?

 

Since you dismiss the unreliable narrator explanation, please explain how the AS had any clue about how souls reincarnated.  They lost any information from the AoL, so were relying on their own experiences.  Where did they study reincarnated souls to determine how they were gendered?  Nothing in the books or the series so far indicated that they identified anyone other than the Dragon as a soul that they could pair with a known sex from a previous incarnation. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

What I said is true, though. The "Dragon could be a woman" thing isn't a case of "unreliable narrator" syndrome, and Rafe's own words - which, as noted, I was finally able to find - unequivocally demonstrate that.

 

Per the article I found:

 

I had not seen that - regarding past Dragons. That is definitely a lore change. Whether it has any meaningful impact moving forward remains to be seen.

 

But also, was that ever actually referenced in the show? Or was this just something that Rafe said that one has to seek out to be considered "canon"? I'm about to start a re-watch, so it's definitely something I'll be on the lookout for.

[DigificWriter]

Rafe and his team made two separate but interrelated lore changes that directly impacted the way in which they approached Season 1.

 

The first of those changes is the degendering of souls, and the second deals with the degree to which the people of the WoT world in general - and the Aes Sedai in particular - believe the accuracy of the prophecies about the Dragon and the degree to which the passage of time may or may not have affected the accuracy of said prophecies.

[Elder_Haman]

19 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

Rafe and his team made two separate but interrelated lore changes that directly impacted the way in which they approached Season 1.

 

The first of those changes is the degendering of souls, and the second deals with the degree to which the people of the WoT world in general - and the Aes Sedai in particular - believe the accuracy of the prophecies about the Dragon and the degree to which the passage of time may or may not have affected the accuracy of said prophecies.

We are in agreement. 

[SinisterDeath]

58 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I had not seen that - regarding past Dragons. That is definitely a lore change. Whether it has any meaningful impact moving forward remains to be seen.

There is an old interview question with RJ where he's asked about this very question and he gets kinda wishy washy on it.

 

The tldr is.

Yes there could have been a female "dragon" but "no" it can't have been the same "soul" as the Dragons (Rands). There's mention of "Amersu" being on equal footing with Rand? 

It's possible there are other people in other ages given the title " dragon" that aren't Rand's soul, that are female.

 

Perhaps Amersu is Egwene and that has to do with her ability to "heal" the pattern. I dunno. But again, it all boils down to a mountain out of a mole hill. Degendering IMO "souls" amounts to a nothing burger. 

 

Rand is still Male, and is Egwene still female.

 

Internally and externally it "allowed" them to market the "mystery" of "who is the dragon?".

 

Personally, I feel the writer and directors "cheated" the audience with how they revealed that "mystery". 

 

As a viewer watching episode 7, I felt the flashback scene from ep1 (Tam), that the viewer didn't actually see in ep 1, cheapened the reveal. 

 

Seeing Rand's channeling POV (like in the ways) was totally valid. 

 

But, we almost never talk about this kind of stuff here. It's always "but the gendered souls!".

 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

On 8/13/2023 at 6:42 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

I wasn't complaining, though.

 

Also, I found the article where Rafe mentioned the de-gendering of souls, and said article also contains a direct reference to the potentiality of female Dragons.

https://gizmodo.com/adapting-the-wheel-of-time-for-tv-is-an-epic-all-its-ow-1848026456

Ok thanks, had not seen that before. There are 2 points for me here. 

First this interview was taken just before season 1 dropped, a key aspect of season one is the "who is the dragon" arc. If 9 days before Rafe had come out and said, "oh a male soul is always male", that instantly undoes that whole plot point. 

But, I also think there is a lot of truth to what Rafe says about Robert Jordan challenging gender roles in fantasy in the 90's and keeping that feeling and sense moving forward. WOT is not just about the story on the page, it is about what RJ was trying to do in general fantasy fiction. Putting female characters front and centre to the story. It makes perfect sense that now, 30 years later, we shift that more to embody something more flexible and bring it up to date with modern thinking, because, if RJ was writing wheel of time now, going by what he was trying to do in the 90's, then you would have a far more diverse and outwardly gender fluid cast of characters in the books. 

It is not just making an adaptation of the books, it is keeping the same essence of what RJ believed in as a person when it came to writing regarding inclusivity. 

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

It is not just making an adaptation of the books, it is keeping the same essence of what RJ believed in as a person when it came to writing regarding inclusivity. 

It's hard to say how RJ would have written the series had he written them today, instead of in the 90s. 

He'd have been 75, and while Harriet is pretty inclusive for her age, I feel he was probably the more socially conservative one in that relationship. 

I dread an alternate timeline where RJ finished the books and took to Twitter, and made his politics known in 2016.

[Elder_Haman]

14 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I dread an alternate timeline where RJ finished the books and took to Twitter, and made his politics known in 2016.

The stuff of absolute nightmares.