FIDDLES-ON-SEA -------- The Pirates Game

[GoodGrief]

*a series of small explosions are heard, followed by a DING. GoodGrief takes some popcorn out of the microwave*

 

This is shaping up to be an interesting one. Especially if Sira and Kivam keep disagreeing. I think the finder should definitely be looking at Sira tonight, but think about Kivam tomorrow.

 

If they keep disagreeing, I really hope one is a pirate. That would make it a lot easier.

 

What worries me is if both are, and they're setting it up to look like the pirate-hood of one is mutually exclusive to the pirate-hood of the other so that if one does go down the other looks squeaky clean. That might sound like a sacrifice, but very active and analytical players are seldom lynched without direct evidence. What really makes this beautiful is that setting up figureheads means that if someone doesn't follow the one they'll probably follow the other - because both can't be evil, right? Less loose votes. So far they're not calling for each other's immediate lynching but are both putting forward probably innocent candidates for different if legitimate reasons, so I'll keep this one in mind.

 

The most worrying one is that they're both innocents who are going to divide the mob into two camps while the pirates pick us off night by night. Which would suck.

 

So for a variety of reasons I really hope that some kind of consensus is reached soon.

[Guest Barmacral]

I have decided to change my vote to GoodGrief, as she does not have any votes on her at this time.

[Talya]

ZYLAZLO- (2): Kivam, Winter Mist

 

KISON (1): Alys

 

LOKI (2): Toy, Sira

 

ALYS (1): Kison

 

BARMACRAL (1) - SBoydW

 

KIVAM (1) - Zy

 

SBOYDW (1) - GoodGrief

 

GOODGRIEF (1) - Barmy,

 

 

Keep going and you'll end up with a vote each :roll: .

 

As yet I'm not putting a time limit on this lynch...mainly because it's interseting and it's the first day. But eventually my patience will run out. Now get lynching.

 

7 votes to lynch

[Guest Barmacral]

I am mildly entertained at the circle that boyd griefy and I are in.

[Sirayn]

You're beginning to reach a little here, Kivam. :P To everyone who has never played with 2 evils in 12 players ... it is absolutely possible for this to be a fair setup. It would be unusual for this board, but the usual setup is role-heavy here, and role-light can also be done fairly. Consider this:

 

3-EVIL SCENARIO

3 x killers OR 2 x killers, 1 x symp

1 x finder

1 x healer

7 x roleless innocents

(NB: finder/healer = very strong innocent combination = needs more evil players to balance it)

 

2-EVIL SCENARIO

2 x killers

1 x finder OR healer

9 x roleless innocents

(NB: no finder/healer = less strong innocent combination = needs fewer evil players to balance it)

 

After some pretty odd setups in past games, and bearing in mind that Kison keeps telling me to drop the assumptions, I'm trying to become broader in my projections. I would happily have set up this game in the 2-evil scenario above. If that's not the way you would have done it ... fine. But you don't know how Tessa set it up any more than I do. Unless you're evil.

 

As we're scraping the barrel here, I invite somebody to find a single projection I've ever done which projected for lynching evil players. That's just not how projections work. You always project for the worst-case scenario. I really shouldn't have to tell Kivam this and I find it curious that he's so eager to pin anything on me - including the fact that I'm projecting no evil lynches ... which is, er, the same way I always do it.

 

Since everybody totally ignored my post where I asked why there was a link between me and Zylazlo - I realise that's because there is no logical answer, but still, it would be good for somebody else to recognise this - I ask again: why would I vote for my own partner with my first vote of the day making the second vote overall when this could easily get him lynched? Did I forget who I was partnered with? Do I just not like him very much? Is it all part of some sneaky evil plan involving sacrificing as many of my team as possible? :roll:

 

I don't go in for lynching my own side when I'm evil. That's how, you know ... I'd lose. :roll: In my first game our evil team won without a single loss - I consider this the mark to reach. I almost missed one of the surviving evil players last game because they had the opportunity to lynch me instead of their own partner and didn't take it. Evil kills innocent! Evil loves evil.

 

An evil team who starts killing their own people on day one is a bad team. An evil team who kills their own people in a coroner finder game in general is a bad team. Dead evil partner = easier for innocents to find you + more days before endgame + more innocents to kill = bad move. I can't emphasise this enough. You just don't axe your partners except for significant strategic gain.

[Kivam]

Interestingly enough, I almost agree with Sirayn.

 

Except she's being superficial again:

 

I said nothing about her planning to lynch a fellow evil on day one, only about her putting a vote on a player then switching the lynch train. It's not the early vote on Zy that got me suspicious, its the move away from him.

 

So all this talk about the strategic downside of lynching an evil partner day one? Irrelevant.

 

And she very conspicuously didn't suggest that any other lynch would give us anywhere near as much information as Zy, or disagree with me as to why that's a reason to lynch him.

 

See you in 12 hrs

 

(And goodgrief's right - if Sirayn comes up innocent, I should be the next finder target)

[Kison]

Particularly since if our town sheriff quietly takes us up on our suggestion that they investigate Sirayn tonight' date=' we'll know one way or the other tomorrow[/quote']

 

Let me also mention that telling the cop who to investigate is the same as wasting that investigation. Why? Because think of what the Mafia will do... When it is night, they will try and pick off an obviously valuable target from our team. This could be someone who is simply a good player, someone who never acts suspicious, or someone who they think has a role. However, you give Sirayn more value to the town by telling the Cop to investigate her, if she is pro-town, because the Mafia KNOW that the next day that she will be a confirmed townie. Therefore, they will kill her tonight in order to prevent that from happening, and it would work, because they know that there's a good chance that the cop will comply with our wishes.

 

My suggestion to the cop : Pick your target at random, as well.

 

Because the answer to that is' date=' obviously, "hell no." In fact, I'm suggesting we lynch Zy, who I'll openly admit is someone I have very little reason to think is a pirate. True, it's more reason than I have to think, say, Alys is a pirate (at the moment), but definitely not enough for me to very securely say "Zy is a pirate, and that's why we must lynch him"[/quote']

 

Yes, day one, there's little to no information to go on. You need to look for behavior, and things that people do that do not appear to be in the benefit of the town. This includes band-wagoning, inconsistencies, and lies.

 

Because the real question is much more basic: "Which person we lynch will give us the most information to work with going forward' date=' whether they are innocent or guilty?"

 

And I think that the only possible answer to that is Zy.[/quote']

 

Agreed, though not sure yet if I agree on your target. I'll have to look into Zy's actions first.

 

 

Although somewhat true, it would benefit my case, it's still a bit of a WIFOM situation. :)

 

An evil team who kills their own people in a coroner finder game in general is a bad team. Dead evil partner = easier for innocents to find you + more days before endgame + more innocents to kill = bad move. I can't emphasise this enough. You just don't axe your partners except for significant strategic gain.

 

I've done it before. It can be a very good strategy. In fact, it's how I won my first complete Mafia game(not on this site).

[the dude]

i personally am not drawing any link between zyl and sirayn.

 

we need something to shift some votes. not to sirayn necessarily, for all the above reasons, but because at this rate nothing will get done... and i don't know who to choose...

[Winter Mist]

Has anyone heard from Loki?

 

Just a comment on Sirayn's post. The roles list definitely makes mention to a healer role, the Hedge Witch, as well as a Finder, the sherriff. I don't know that having both roles makes it a 3-evil scenario though, so I'll stop that line of thought. :)

 

As people will know from previous games that in order to get things moving, I'll switch my vote when I feel it is necessary, so...

 

I change my vote to Loki Redfern.

 

Kivam, I note your points about Zylazlo, but at least he has been here to protest his innocence. It is hard to discern a person's guilt or innocence when they are voted for and do not post. If I've missed an LOA post, I'm sorry and I apologise. As I always say, the first lynch is the hardest of all.

[the dude]

loki is unfortunately looking like a good candidate, since if he's gonna get modkilled, we may as well lynch him, eliminating the possibility of losing 2 innocents in the first day cycle.

 

thoughts anyone?

[Kison]

It would seem to be a good option. The only downside is that we wouldn't get any information out of it. However, we would get information out of our night kill.

 

Unvote

Vote : Loki Redfern

 

There's still equal chance that he is scum.

[the dude]

yeah, there is that. i dunno. is it better to potentially get some clues and lose possibly 2 innocents in a day, not to mention the nightkill?

 

i think i'll go with loki just cuz he's not around and i think it's the lesser of the evils.

[Guest Barmacral]

Well, we do need to get a lynch at some point, and Loki does have a fetish for pirates, so I'll vote for Loki Redfern

[the dude]

and he would have voted for me if he was around.

 

makes you wonder where he is though...

[Talya]

ZYLAZLO- (1): Kivam,

 

KISON (1): Alys

 

LOKI (6): Toy, Sira, Barmy, Lara, Kison, The Dude

 

BARMACRAL (1) - SBoydW

 

KIVAM (1) - Zy

 

SBOYDW (1) - GoodGrief

 

 

 

As there seems to be lynch going on I will leave it for the time being. If by the time I log off to go to bed...which is in a couple hours...then he is Modkilled.

[Talya]

Loki had been drinking all day in the pub. today on his way home he went off towards the hidden coves over the headland. He was seen and followed by some of the villagers wondering where he was going.

 

As he walked he found a gorse bush by the side of the cliff to relive himself. Unfortuantely the after alot of rain the edge was unsafe and it slid form underneath his feet. He fell to the bottom of the cliff, where his mangled body laid benn lapped by the waves as the came ashore.

 

The villagers made their way down to the bottom of the clidd and climbed over the rocks to get to Loki. By looking at him it was clear that he was dead.

 

They searched his body and found nothing incriminating on him, so others went back and search his house...nothing. Loki was just an innocent villager who had taken an unlucky tumble down the cliffs.

 

ZYLAZLO- (1): Kivam,

 

KISON (1): Alys

 

BARMACRAL (1) - SBoydW

 

KIVAM (1) - Zy

 

SBOYDW (1) - GoodGrief

 

 

 

6 votes to lynch.

[Kivam]

Wow - a lot has happened today. I was checking in on my blackberry during the day and cringing.

 

A few things:

 

1) Kison should have known that there was NO chance that Loki was scum. We had, essentially, mod confirmation of that, when Tessalya said she had already thought of the possibility that he hadn't noticed the game had started because he hadn't gotten a role PM, and had PM'd him a reminder. No role PM = no possibility of being evil, and Kison starts to look more suspicious to me.

 

2) Kison also should have known that the evil team's night kill would not necessarily have given us any information. Think I'm wrong, Kison? Then go through the player list and post, for each player night killed, what information we would gain. Yes, there are some that would give us info - many others would tell us almost nothing. And that, effectively, would leave us repeating day 1 (in terms of lack of information) down 2 innocents. That's just about suicide. Whatever else happens, we can't just shrug off a lynch today that would give us no information. Once again, Kison looks suspicious to me.

 

3) Kison suggests the cop not investigate Sirayn, because it might make her a target. Guess what - if she isn't evil, she's already a target because of her skill level. All suggesting no investigation does is prohibit us from making an innocent determination based on a non-reveal (because maybe the finder didn't investigate). The real solution to the "make her a target" argument is to suggest the healer protect Sirayn tonight - causing a question on the evil team about whether targeting Sirayn is useful. That (not suggesting the finder not investigate her) makes her less of a target if she's innocent. All suggesting she not be investigated does is make a non-reveal less informative to the rest of us. Minimizing the information available to the innocents is very very suspicious to me, and Kison is rapidly shooting to the top of my aaarggh list.

 

In fact, if I had to put money on the evil team right now, I'd put it on Zy-Sirayn-Kison without hesitation.

 

Finally, now that Loki has already been modkilled (and avoiding that was the only argument anyone made for not lynching Zy and getting as much information as possible), does anyone see any reason not to lynch Zy? To lynch someone else? Anyone??

[GoodGrief]

I would have voted Loki if I'd got on in time :? but now not only is he dead but we have to lynch another player anyway.

 

Kivam, Zyl has done nothing suspicious, and I believe there might be a lot of information to be gained from Kison's death by now, especially if you believe him to be a pirate. Why still pushing the 'Kill Zy' line?

 

I'd vote Kison right now but a) I think I'll wait for response from Kivam justifying Zyl ahead of Kison, or not, and b) I'm hesitant to break up the circle of love between me, Boyo and Barmy.

[Alys Kinch]

glad kivam was good enough to post that during the night cycle.

 

the healer needs to focus on three people right now. kivam, sira and sir.

 

kivam is right about loki. tessalya slipped up. :? and that is something many didn't see appearantly. *is ashamed of some of you* sorry for saying what i said in a way to make you respond like that, talya, but it gave me information that i thought would be useful later... and now i don't get to use it. :cry: seriously didn't think i would get so lucky as all that, but a girl tries and then... you don't get to say anything because of the attention... and here we are because of it.

 

something else for thought. kison went straight for my throat on false charges... kison engineered a bad lynch...

[Alys Kinch]

whooops. so it isn't night cycle... and it wasn't a lynch, but the result is the same. you should be changing votes to kison because he is the only person we really have a reason on.

[Kivam]

I would have voted Loki if I'd got on in time :? but now not only is he dead but we have to lynch another player anyway.

 

Kivam' date=' Zyl has done nothing suspicious, and I believe there might be a lot of information to be gained from Kison's death by now, especially if you believe him to be a pirate. Why still pushing the 'Kill Zy' line?

 

I'd vote Kison right now but a) I think I'll wait for response from Kivam justifying Zyl ahead of Kison, or not, and b) I'm hesitant to break up the circle of love between me, Boyo and Barmy.[/quote']

 

Why Zy and not Kison? Again, it comes down to risk/reward. Kison, like Sirayn, is one of the more analytical players in these games. If he's an innocent, he's an asset to us. And if the axis is Zy-Sirayn-Kison, a guilty verdict on Zy will just about lock that down for us. A guilty verdict on Kison, on the other hand, would really put the finger on Sirayn, true (though we'll find out about her anyway) but would tell us little about Zy.

 

And an innocent verdict on Kison would tell us even less than an innocent verdict on Zy, while costing ourselves someone who could be very helpful down the road.

 

I understand why people would want to vote Kison (and maybe he's tomorrow's lynch, depending on how things go). Hell, I'm the one who pointed out some of the suspicious ways he's been acting. But like I said, on day 1 we need to lynch whoever will give us the most info whether the verdict is guilty or innocent

 

I honestly think that's Zy. But I'm open to convincing if anyone can explain the info we get from an innocent coroner finder on Kison, and if the votes are lining up his way and not Zy's, I may switch anyway just to get SOME info rather than go to night without a lynch.

 

So, I put it to the rest of you - what do we learn if (despite what our pirate-sensitive noses are telling us) Kison turns up innocent?

[Zylazlo-]

Do we really have a reason on him? In that case we have a reason on everyone who voted loki then and I really don't believe there are 6 evils in this game. But this just seems like I'm defending the Kison cause, but I'm not, I'm defending a neutral cause. I say the same to Kivam I mean why isn't it a Zy - Winter Mist - The Dude(or anyone else who voted loki) team? or Zy - Sira - Barm(or anyone else who voted loki)? Huh? Sira and WM both changed votes from me to loki afterwards. So seriously I'm saying we're all about at the same level of guiltiness/innocence here.

[Alys Kinch]

i don't think we should go with zy yet because we don't need to let this lead go unchecked. if kison is innocent, we haven't lost the information on zy because at a dead end we could just revert back. but the simple truth is, i don't want to lynch a guy that i think is innocent unless i have to.

[Alys Kinch]

except that kison diverted everyone on to a known innocent. without good reasoning.

 

and he came up with a lie to vote for me. :roll:

 

aside from that, he is all for undermining everything everyone has put forth. we all know it is speculation on this vote, but he had to make it more than bluntly obvious and imply that we were taking everything as proven.

 

and saying that the cop should not look at a high profile person... while at the same time implying that the healer shouldn't bother to protect that person because it was a waste for both actions...

 

you tell me.

[Kison]

Kison should have known that there was NO chance that Loki was scum. We had' date=' essentially, mod confirmation of that, when Tessalya said she had already thought of the possibility that he hadn't noticed the game had started because he hadn't gotten a role PM, and had PM'd him a reminder. No role PM = no possibility of being evil, and Kison starts to look more suspicious to me.[/quote']

 

You're right. That did not sink in when I had read it.

 

Kison suggests the cop not investigate Sirayn' date=' because it might make her a target.[/quote']

 

I never said that. I said the cop needs to pick a target at random, and NOT be predictable. If that random target happens to be Sirayn, then by all means, do it.

 

If you honestly believe that we should tell the cop who to investigate in a place where the Pirates can hear, then you are trying to get Sirayn killed. I explained earlier why this would happen, and the fact that you are trying to cast doubt on me based on this sets a red spot on my scumdar. Let me lay it out for those who still don't get it...

 

If the Pirates KNOW that our cop is going to investigate Sirayn, they will kill her tonight. They will do this BECAUSE of what we would gain from an innocent result. If she is a confirmed townie, she becomes a huge threat to the Pirates. She's vocal, a good analyst, and she would become someone who we would not suspect when throwing our votes around. Basically, she would narrow the number of POSSIBLE scummies on the list, making it more likely that we lynch the right person tomorrow. In order to PREVENT this, -let me say it again-, the pirates will kill Sirayn tonight if they know we are going to investigate her.

 

Secondly, in order to confirm her, our cop would have to claim tomorrow. This is BAD, because without confirmation of a scum, there is NO reason why our cop should claim this early on. Cop claiming = bad because if our doc dies, so does our cop, and along with him, our information.

 

Now, one could also argue that our doc could protect Sirayn tonight. This is true. However, like I said, our cop will have to claim tomorrow. This is a HUGE issue, because we then have two people who REQUIRE protection, and the pirates KNOW this. Therefore, when night three rolls around, Sirayn will die, because the cop has a powerful role and will gain the protection of the doc over Sirayn.

 

I'm not trying to undermine anyone. However, you can't tell me that what I predict doesn't make sense. I've seen it happen, and it's pretty standard protocol in a mafia game(not here, but on sites where it's played more regularly) not to announce a potential night action.

 

Kison also should have known that the evil team's night kill would not necessarily have given us any information.

 

A night kill can give information in a number of ways:

 

1) Anything said by the player the day before would be informative.

 

2) Any votes laid down by the player the day before would hint at their intentions.

 

3) Any votes casted upon the player the day before would hint at the intentions of others.

 

In order for someone to give off no information from a night kill would require that they had not voted' date=' spoken, or been voted for.

 

In reference to me being scum based on the fact that I went after Loki, hypocrisy is all I have to say. First of all, I was hardly the first one to go after him based on the threat of a MOD kill. Winter Mist had voted before I had, then the dude and Barmacral had voted afterwards. That you are singling me out when there were three others who did the same thing is a huge inconsistency.

 

Despite Loki being town, however, were we to lynch him as a townie, it still would have been in our benefit. Why? Because, like I said before, we would gain insight from our night while being rid of someone who would have died anyway. Now that we didn't, chances are that we will lose two townies on the first day, and another at night. This screws us up because it puts the endgame into closer view.

 

and saying that the cop should not look at a high profile person...

 

FoS : Alys Kinch. That stands for Finger of Suspicion.

 

And for that matter, FoS : Kivam