Repetitive summary’s through the books.

[Scarloc99]

I am re reading the entire series again, and having reached LOC have either never realised, or forgotten, how much page space is wasted on RJ reminding us of everything that has happened to each character as you come to them. Generally through them remembering. For instance I have just gone through the scene of Mat dancing in the inn, which is a nice little scene, made far to long as he recalls the scar round his neck, the holes in his memory etc. This seems to be the case for each major character so far, and seems more pronounced in LOC then any of the prior books. 

 

Trying to remember if RJ keeps this up in future books, and wondering how many pages would be saved if he assumed that the reader started at book 1 and was capable of remembering the key story points. It all just feels like needless prose. 

[DojoToad]

I think they (publishers and authors) may feel obligated to do recaps for a new reader picking up the most recently published book.

 

Personally, I think it is silly.  If it says book 4 and you have never heard of the series, maybe go back and start with book 1...

[Gypsum]

I too am rereading the series after many years.

 

That's one of RJ's quirky (for lack of a better word) writer tics which stands out like dragon tattoos on your arms. I end up speed reading through that stuff. It's very repetitive and comes across like he doesn't trust readers to remember anything, so he has to nervously hold their hands.

 

Some editor (his wife?) should have told him to cut most of that. Along with the unnecessary repetitive descriptions of characters. Like we don't need to know Whitecloaks have a bright sunburst on their cloaks every. single. time. a Whitecloak walks into the page. Or that certain characters have a "heart-shaped mouth" or whatever every single time we see them. Etc. etc.

 

The books are brilliant, and he's a master world builder, but they would be even better if someone had calmed him down. "Your readers aren't idiots, mate. It's really fine."

Edited January 23, 2023 by Gypsum

[Scarloc99]

So please I am not the only one getting frustrated, it does feel that if all that repetition has been cut out you could have either had smaller books, or, preferably extra story about Shara etc lol, 

 

I also wonder if the repetition is for himself, if he does it as a way of remembering the story he has written so far. But yes, I am on lord of chaos, which should just have a warning “do not start the series from this book unless you’re an idiot”. 
 

Really hoping the TV show doesn’t pay homage to RJ with endless long recap segments each episode lol. 

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I also wonder if the repetition is for himself, if he does it as a way of remembering the story he has written so far. But yes, I am on lord of chaos, which should just have a warning “do not start the series from this book unless you’re an idiot”. 

I believe it's more like an industry standard (at the time) for authors/editors to incorporate these repetitious explanations, because when they would have a 1-5 year gap between books. 

You'll notice it's very common for "airport books" do the exact same thing.
The Drizzt series & Clive Cussler's Dirk Pitt series do the same thing. They're meant to be read in order, but you can pick one up at an Airport book stand and read the book without context.

Why RJ/TOR felt that people would want to pick up a random WoT book in an Airport and read it, is beyond me.

[DojoToad]

24 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

So please I am not the only one getting frustrated, it does feel that if all that repetition has been cut out you could have either had smaller books, or, preferably extra story about Shara etc lol, 

 

I also wonder if the repetition is for himself, if he does it as a way of remembering the story he has written so far. But yes, I am on lord of chaos, which should just have a warning “do not start the series from this book unless you’re an idiot”. 
 

Really hoping the TV show doesn’t pay homage to RJ with endless long recap segments each episode lol. 

They don't have time for recaps.  And in the world of streaming, it is all there.  Have a marathon session or two before the new season drops, and you're all good.

[Gypsum]

Dunno...it doesn't feel it was intended to be an airport novel (I am also part way through Lord of Chaos).

 

Just feels to me like sloppy editing. Or insecurity on the part of editors/TOR as well that readers have the memories of gnats.

 

I also find the POV chapters of totally minor characters I could not care less about tedious at times, but that's just me.

 

Jordan is at his strongest when he's in full flight, writing about Big Stuff Happening. I'm in the middle of the part where Egwene is being raised to the Amyrlin Seat. This section is brilliant.

[Kalessin]

FWIW, W. Somerset Maugham in the introduction to the Pocket Books abridgement of his novel "Of Human Bondage" goes into a discussion of novelists "padding" their novels in depth. It's well worth a read. He takes on Dickens among others ...

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, Kalessin said:

FWIW, W. Somerset Maugham in the introduction to the Pocket Books abridgement of his novel "Of Human Bondage" goes into a discussion of novelists "padding" their novels in depth. It's well worth a read. He takes on Dickens among others ...

I'm sure many of us here, myself included, found many ways to pad papers written for school.

[Stedding Tofu]

2 hours ago, Kalessin said:

FWIW, W. Somerset Maugham in the introduction to the Pocket Books abridgement of his novel "Of Human Bondage" goes into a discussion of novelists "padding" their novels in depth. It's well worth a read. He takes on Dickens among others ...

 

I've not read Maugham but remember that Dickens' novels were serialised so he had to reach a certain chapter and word count on a monthly(?) basis for publication.  That leads to a very different approach to publishing a novel in one go after ample time for revision and editing as certain scenes are there purely to reach that threshold.

 

RJ spends the beginning of each book - and later the first time we meet a character again - reintroducing us to them and recapping what they were doing when we last saw them so that leads to a very slow build up.  It's deliberate but becomes an issue as the series goes on as we have more and more characters and more and more sub-plots to be eased back into.  The prologue also goes from being a short lead in setting themes for the book to being a monster containing multiple short chapters from minor povs (CoT 96 pages, KoD 91 pages).

 

On 1/23/2023 at 7:23 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

I am re reading the entire series again, and having reached LOC have either never realised, or forgotten, how much page space is wasted on RJ reminding us of everything that has happened to each character as you come to them.

 

The end to LoC is spectacular.  The start to ACoS is "somewhat" slower as the recap is deliberately the quiet after the storm.  Given it's a short book over a very short timespan this felt an odd decision to me first time I read it and, although it delivers an ending, marked the beginning of the mid-series sideways drift for me.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I think I heard something about RJ was surprised therefore not expecting fans to reread all the books prior to the release of a new one so he felt the reminders were necessary. I do completely agree though about the bonkers level repetition. Not only the recaps but the general writing style (nyneave and her braid tugging and “stout two rivers woolens”, excessive identical repeated descriptions of the physical features of characters including their horses, the seanchan accent, the features of tel’aran’rhiod etc and I could go on and on with examples but I won’t). I find it distracting and sometimes irritating but as always I end up chalking it up to one more quirky RJ thing and it becomes endearing because I love what he created. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

A heavy half moon blade balanced by a thick spike.

 

I was wondering if I was the only one that was affected by such phrases so often repeated, maybe I was being unfair and just sensitive about sections that possibly weren't even that similar. 

 

But no, apparently not.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

19 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

A heavy half moon blade balanced by a thick spike.

 

I was wondering if I was the only one that was affected by such phrases so often repeated, maybe I was being unfair and just sensitive about sections that possibly weren't even that similar. 

 

But no, apparently not.

Haha, nope, you’re not the only one! I always had that same thought until I joined this forum not all that long ago. One example for me personally that I’m hesitant to admit because I don’t think anyone would agree, but what the hell…the points in the books that were saturated with descriptors of the sword forms during training but especially in battle are always distracting and irritating to me when I read them. I’m sure for most readers it enhances their immersion into the story, but for me it served the opposite purpose. I personally don’t need to know every minute detail of how each sword form could be described metaphorically! Ok, with that off my chest, I feel the need to clarify that I say this out of love and I love this series and the world of WOT, so it only adds to my enjoyment and devotion when I have gripes or annoyances. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

24 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Haha, nope, you’re not the only one! I always had that same thought until I joined this forum not all that long ago. One example for me personally that I’m hesitant to admit because I don’t think anyone would agree, but what the hell…the points in the books that were saturated with descriptors of the sword forms during training but especially in battle are always distracting and irritating to me when I read them. I’m sure for most readers it enhances their immersion into the story, but for me it served the opposite purpose. I personally don’t need to know every minute detail of how each sword form could be described metaphorically! Ok, with that off my chest, I feel the need to clarify that I say this out of love and I love this series and the world of WOT, so it only adds to my enjoyment and devotion when I have gripes or annoyances. 

I think actually the sword forms are actually a method of describing the fighting without the having to go into the minutiae of the movements. I don't know how much RJ knew about sword-fighting, and it could be tricky to keep describing the actions of blademasters in a way that would be convincing to anyone. The forms give an easy way of describing the fight that is full of imagery, and is very succinct. 

 

Boar rushes down the mountain meets Parting the silk, says nothing concrete but the conjures up a lot of feeling and for me at least translates well to a vague feeling of a very involved sword fight. It also emphasizes that the combatants are highly trained, performing exact movements, and also stresses the chess-like aspect beyond strength and reactions. It is a mechanic I think is very well executed to convey a lot of imagery into the readers mind with few words and being vague enough that it is generated from within the reader so never can feel out of place. 

 

Of course, apparently it doesn't work for everyone 😄

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

3 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I think actually the sword forms are actually a method of describing the fighting without the having to go into the minutiae of the movements. I don't know how much RJ knew about sword-fighting, and it could be tricky to keep describing the actions of blademasters in a way that would be convincing to anyone. The forms give an easy way of describing the fight that is full of imagery, and is very succinct. 

 

Boar rushes down the mountain meets Parting the silk, says nothing concrete but the conjures up a lot of feeling and for me at least translates well to a vague feeling of a very involved sword fight. It also emphasizes that the combatants are highly trained, performing exact movements, and also stresses the chess-like aspect beyond strength and reactions. It is a mechanic I think is very well executed to convey a lot of imagery into the readers mind with few words and being vague enough that it is generated from within the reader so never can feel out of place. 

 

Of course, apparently it doesn't work for everyone 😄

Absolutely! You have beautifully illustrated the significance of incorporating sword craft in such a meaningful way and the exquisite artistry involved in order to embed it so authentically into the story and world building. I completely get it…which is why I was so hesitant to admit that it didn’t appeal to me 😂 it’s kinda like when people want to talk to me about sports and I’m like…meh

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

5 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

Absolutely! You have beautifully illustrated the significance of incorporating sword craft in such a meaningful way and the exquisite artistry involved in order to embed it so authentically into the story and world building. I completely get it…which is why I was so hesitant to admit that it didn’t appeal to me 😂 it’s kinda like when people want to talk to me about sports and I’m like…meh

If it annoyed you, then it could be a sign that it was overused. I think it is a great way to describe a fight between masters of the sword, but that does not mean that it cannot be used too often, or in situations where it detracts from the action instead of adding to it. 

 

I cannot say it ever felt too much like that to me (but perhaps I was making exceptions due to my admiration of the writing mechanic), not in the way that, for instance, I was ready to throw the book out the window if there was another character who was physically perfect except for an over-abundance of bosom, or if a main female character borrowed clothes that were tight around chest and loose around the hips, as they are obviously all so anatomically bizarre that they need specially tailored clothes. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

11 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

If it annoyed you, then it could be a sign that it was overused. I think it is a great way to describe a fight between masters of the sword, but that does not mean that it cannot be used too often, or in situations where it detracts from the action instead of adding to it. 

 

I cannot say it ever felt too much like that to me (but perhaps I was making exceptions due to my admiration of the writing mechanic), not in the way that, for instance, I was ready to throw the book out the window if there was another character who was physically perfect except for an over-abundance of bosom, or if a main female character borrowed clothes that were tight around chest and loose around the hips, as they are obviously all so anatomically bizarre that they need specially tailored clothes. 

I appreciate your open minded response to my reaction to that aspect of the writing. 
 

as for all the focus on bosom…that always threw me off too! For just one example, why do we need to know the are females folding their arms beneath their breasts? We know how people fold their arms! The amount of bosom exposed in the way women dressed is frequently described. Don’t even get me started on the rampant spanking going on all over the damn place 😂

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I appreciate your open minded response to my reaction to that aspect of the writing. 
 

as for all the focus on bosom…that always threw me off too! For just one example, why do we need to know the are females folding their arms beneath their breasts? We know how people fold their arms! The amount of bosom exposed in the way women dressed is frequently described. Don’t even get me started on the rampant spanking going on all over the damn place 😂

I would like to think that most readers understand that we all put so much into a book, and live with it for such a long time that there is no one right way experience it, the words on the page are only a seed. Unless of course, we are talking about the way I experience it, and then I'm right, you are all wrong, and I have my fingers in my ears "LALALA LAAA LAAA" and cannot hear you 😄

 

The arms folding I guess the male gaze in print. Like how pendants don't hang from people's necks, they nestle between breasts. I mean, it is great imagery, I cannot claim to be unaffected by such poetic words, but it is all from a low-key lecherous male view point. And yeah spankings, oh my aged grandmother. The pinnacle has to be Semirhage, how can we break this woman who will accept any pain, any torment, any torture, any reasoning... ah ha! The thing that is even worse than the ridiculous speed with which it is effective, is that Cadsuane comes to the idea by considering what would break herself. It is just is the solution to every problem in the books. They say that if all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. What did RJ have that every solution is a spanking? Not sure I want to know...

[Elendir]

I don't share the opinion that is woven through most of the posts in this thread. Books can be consumed by various ways. It is better to repeat something and prevent confusion, then other way. I actually find the way RJ did it interesting.

 

Each description of core characters is repeated from POV of some minor character. RJ changed culture of this minor character from book to book, so description was different because diferent culture and diferent personality. It told me a lot of about culture of this minor character. So it wasn't about repeating desription only.

[Aan-Alone]

On 9/14/2023 at 5:13 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

the sword forms are actually a method of describing the fighting without the having to go into the minutiae of the movements

Exactly what they are, or should be. I'm vaguely familiar with some Kung Fu Forms, as in it's the only other martial art i'm aware of where some movements have these flowery, poetic descriptions. The descriptions were usually taken from comparisons with the natural world, but also had meanings beyond their face-value.

 

On 9/14/2023 at 5:13 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Boar rushes down the mountain meets Parting the silk

To illustrate with your example, "Boar rushes down the mountain' sounds like a forceful, quick, straight-line movement. Whereas 'Parting the silk' sounds more relaxed, gentle and onmi-directional.

 

Think Shaolin Monk meets TaiChi Master...

 

So one could use a little imagination and come up with a vague representation of the actual sword fight RJ was trying to describe. It is work though to try and do this.

 

My takeaway was it seemed to add a degree of authenticity to the story. I appreciated that. 

[Aan-Alone]

Ample bosoms and sniffs...

 

I always thought this was just more gender stereotyping. With each example helping to prove both gender's worldviews? And it ties in with the spankings in a sense.

 

Spanking/Corporal punishment is mostly used for childish behaviour on children. One could argue most of Randlanders act daily in a childish manner, some more so than others. As such the constant spankings are justified? Recall RJ was a military cadet, at a time when spankings, and other creative forms of discipline, would have been used as a matter of course. Finally, this form of punishment is, to some extent, shame-inducing. Enduring the shame is supposed to build character, at least in someone lacking enough to have to be shamed.

 

These 2 topics, the gender stereotyping and the spanking, in WoT. It seems to me RJ might have been trying to make a point without stating one outright. Or perhaps RJ was just having fun with world-building, or something else?

 

 

[Aayushi]

Publishers and authors might feel obliged, in my opinion, to provide summaries for a new reader who decides to take up the most recent book.

 

In my opinion, it is ridiculous. Try starting with book 1 if it says "book 4" and you haven't heard of the series before.