How the seals broke?

[Guest LurkingFadeFetcher]

This is just an idea I've been mulling over for a while.

We know that the seals on the DO's prison are made out of cuendillar and they are the "focus points" of the seal. We know that nothing can break cuendillar as even the power just gets absorbed to make it stronger.

 

We also know that shortly before they broke, someone holding one of the seals could sense feelings of anger, hatred, suffering, etc. and that those feelings disappeared after they broke.

 

Now here is my theory. The feelings of evil were caused by the DO, whether because he was "close" to them or what I don't know. Is it possible that the seals absorbed so much of the power, probably the True Power in this case, that they overloaded and broke(for lack of better words)? and if that is the case, could a channeler theoretically destroy a peice of cuendillar by channeling enough power at it long enough?

 

Or did they break because the DO's presence somehow "corrupted" them into something else so they could break?

 

Hope that makes sense, just wanted to know what people think.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Corrupted is most likely, after the seal broke in EotW it went back to being harder than steel at least.

[BrainFireBob]

Going theory is that the DO created a "vaccum" with the True Power that pulled the One Power out of the cuendillar- realize that this would not be force directed "at" the focii, and hence not triggering the cuendillar "defense" mechanism.

[Achoo]

I would like to address what seems to be an accepted theory around here, since it seems odd to me that it has been accepted so widely when it is far from satisfactory. I found that this was the best place since the theory was neatly summed up previously and it is a short thread.

 

Going theory is that the DO created a "vaccum" with the True Power that pulled the One Power out of the cuendillar- realize that this would not be force directed "at" the focii, and hence not triggering the cuendillar "defense" mechanism.

 

It seems to me that, since cuendillar is made from iron with the One Power, sucking the One Power out of it would make it revert to iron. Also, this theory does not explain why, after infinite turnings of the Wheel, the world is not entirely deprived of iron and filled instead with the supposedly indestructible heartstone.

 

I propose instead that it is vulnerable to the passage of time, but only the passage of long periods of time. The Dark One has the ability to accelerate the passage of time (as he is currently doing with food everywhere), he merely accelerated time for the seals, leading to their decomposition and eventual failure. It is possible that, given enough time, cuendillar breaks down even further and then reverts to iron once it is in very small pieces.

[Roxinos]

Going theory is that the DO created a "vaccum" with the True Power that pulled the One Power out of the cuendillar- realize that this would not be force directed "at" the focii, and hence not triggering the cuendillar "defense" mechanism.

 

That's the current theory? I've never heard it, but okay.

 

I always just assumed that, like the decaying of the weaves of keeping (wards and the like), heartstone is decayed by the Great Lord's influence.

[mb]

We also know that shortly before they broke, someone holding one of the seals could sense feelings of anger, hatred, suffering, etc. and that those feelings disappeared after they broke.

I do not recall reading anything like that.  Where did you get that?

 

Somewhere (I do not remember where) it was speculated that the Taint caused the weakening of the seals.

That seems the most plausible theory.

 

[Shard]

Those seals then would seem to indicate how the DO tainted Saidin in the first place.

[42Bonzo88]

    I'm probably way off here, but could the seals be something similar to what has happened to the 'ways'. I know they are supposed to be tainted from the male half, could they be similar?

[Serenla]

I think that the seals broke because of the DO trying to break free for the last three thousand years.  The seals are the focus points for the patch or patches on the Pattern which is the fabric of reality.  We know that even with some of the seals weakened or only one broken, the DO can affect reality(the weather getting stuck).  We also see that with seals broken, he can affect reality more(the keepings, dead walking, Elayne's palace).  If the patch is 7 patches, which I think it is, the DO could weaken the first patch, bust though that patch which would break the seal, weaken the next and so on.  He would even be able to work on more than one at a time, since he can reach the world before they are all broken.  This would meant that he has had 3,000 years to weaken the patches to reach the next and so on until he could affect the world and then finish weakening and breaking the patches. This would also explain why his messing with reality has speed up so much.  Almost 3,000 years to affect the weather, but only a couple of years to really mess things up.  It would also explain the bubbles of evil, at first small, because only one patch broke and as more broke bigger and bigger bubbles.  So to wrap up, I think the DO altered reality on the patches and since the reality that the seals were connected to was altered the unbreakable seals could break. 

 

I hope that makes sense, I am having a hard time finding the right words...

[rhadamanthus]

It's a matter of will.  The DO "wills" reality and the pattern to break, to stretch, to undo itself.  It's his goal.  As people lose faith in the pattern, lose faith in humanity, his ability to taint the pattern grows, weakening the seals.  In many ways, people's fear of his loosening encourages that loosening.

 

Rand, Perrin, Matt.  The "tripod" of ta'vern (TSR) are a salient for the pattern, and reality, and hope to rely on.  They can, figuratively, "will" the pattern to remain and retain itself.  All three are critical ("strike one leg of the tripod, they all fall" - myraddal to Perrin (IIRC))

 

(sic) "Being ta'vern may be the best advantage you have against the dark one in the end, Rand" - Moiraine (tFoH).

 

That always struck me as a terribly important line, especially now that Rand is struggling with controlling Saidin and has trouble seeing.  At each stage as the story progresses, his body gets more and more wrecked, and the land and people with it (prophecy - forget the book, but another fisher king hint).  In the end it's not his power, but his will, he is the creator's champion, and ergo is a walking influence on the pattern - but an influence of maintenance, the opposite of the dark one's influence of unraveling.

 

IMHO.  As the dark one pushes his influence further, and as the people react to it, the seals weaken.  In the end, Rand, his body and mind contorted, will be the key to the last seal.  I think he will have to initiate it.  He will break the last seal and let his pattern-retaining champion ta'vern-ness attempt to "undo" the bore completely.

[mb]

About feelings, the feelings are not specifically mentioned; just that it felt evil.  And that was with just one Seal.  The earlier passage where the same Seal was touched (Shadow Rising Chapter 54), any kind of feeling was not mentioned when touching it.

I recall only one more POV (besides those) of a Seal being touched (Taim meeting Rand, Lord of Chaos Chapter 2); no feelings were told there.

Other passages where a whole Seal is touched; I do not recall the person touching speaking of any feelings.

 

[Roxinos]

Yes, that's why LurkingFadeFetcher said "shortly before they broke."

 

We haven't had that instance again.

[ShinyThingsGood]

I agree with those that said it's the DO's influence corrupting and weakening the seals, but I don't think they are reverting back to iron.  I don't remember exactly where, but I remember Moiraine at one point telling Rand that the seal in her possession could be broken with a hammer or with a fall from a table.  She packed it tightly in cotton to keep it safe while she transported it.  I know iron is weaker than steel, but smashing it on the ground or a few whacks with a hammer aren't going to break it.  I think that the seals are still heartstone, but for some reason have lost their indestructible properties and become brittle.  We don't know the extent of the DO's ability.  Just because people can't do it doesn't mean he can't.  And concerning the world's supply of iron being heartstone, remember that even in the AoL it was artifacts made from cuendillar were rare and prized.  It was never particularly common.

[Eleint]

I always figured it went like this:

• The Hundred Companions started channeling using the iron discs that would turn to Cuendillar in the process as a focal point.
  
• The Dark One felt the process and back-blasted and tainted saidin.
  
• Tainted saidin was used to lock the seals in place and they became cuendillar.
  
• Because tainted saidin was created, the seals had a weakness and could 'rot' from within.
  
• The Dark One's presence in the world increased the strength of the taint to a degree and the seals broke faster when he got stronger.
  

[Builder]

Sounds logical. Though it took a looong time.

[mb]

I always figured it went like this:

• The Hundred Companions started channeling using the iron discs that would turn to Cuendillar in the process as a focal point.
  
• The Dark One felt the process and back-blasted and tainted saidin.
  
• Tainted saidin was used to lock the seals in place and they became cuendillar.
  
• Because tainted saidin was created, the seals had a weakness and could 'rot' from within.
  
• The Dark One's presence in the world increased the strength of the taint to a degree and the seals broke faster when he got stronger.
  

That sequence seems the most plausible to me.

 

[Kaznen]

The seals were already Cuendillar when the strike happened, says it in the BWB.

 

I always thought of them as anchor points.  LTT and the HC postioned themselves with the seals around SG and used Saidin to make coradage (one AS taking over where the other ended) that "sewed" the hole in the prison to keep it from getting bigger and make a net to patch it shut.  The seals were what the saidin ropes were tied to. 

 

The whole thing was in a metaphysical sense because that was how the bore was in the world, it was everywhere but could best be felt at SG, so that is why the seals could be moved.

 

Because massive amounts of Saidin were used that close to the Pit of Doom (besides from everyone being powerful there would have been angreal used by more then a few members and if the Ring of the Tamirlyn was a san'greal like people suspect LTT would have brought it) it pick up the shadow that the DO was throwing out as a residue causing the taint.

 

Cuendillar is strengthened by the OP when a channler pours power into it, but because the seals where focus points Saidin wasn't poured into it but the rope were attached to it, surrounding it with soon to be tainted saidin.

 

I do agree that the taint is what destoyed them, turning the seals into cheap cermanic.

[water_seeker]

I do agree that the taint is what destoyed them, turning the seals into cheap cermanic.

 

I disagree.  If it was the taint it seems that the damage would be gradual.  The disks are hard prior to breaking and after they are broken.  It is just at a certain point when they actually do break. 

 

I get the feeling that somehow the DO's attention is brought to a specific disk and he can pour his effort into breaking that particular disk.  This (in my mind) is similar to when Rand is blocked he "reaches" into, or focuses on the hardened points of his block to shatter them...each time he does that his block gets weaker till he can burst through it.

[Achoo]

-ShinyThingsGood-

 

I agree with those that said it's the DO's influence corrupting and weakening the seals, but I don't think they are reverting back to iron. I don't remember exactly where, but I remember Moiraine at one point telling Rand that the seal in her possession could be broken with a hammer or with a fall from a table.

 

What I meant, and I'm sorry for the vagueness, is that the seals will weaken, break, and, once broken into really tiny pieces, turn to iron.

 

And concerning the world's supply of iron being heartstone, remember that even in the AoL it was artifacts made from cuendillar were rare and prized. It was never particularly common.

 

It was never common in one Age, but that doesn't matter much. Remember, the Wheel of Time has no beginning. It has already turned infinite times, and even if only one thimble in each age was turned to heartstone, there would still be an infintite supply of thimbles and no iron.

 

-Eleint-

 

Tainted saidin was used to lock the seals in place and they became cuendillar.

Because tainted saidin was created, the seals had a weakness and could 'rot' from within.

The Dark One's presence in the world increased the strength of the taint to a degree and the seals broke faster when he got stronger.

 

If that were true, then the seals would be safe now that saidin is not tainted.

 

-water_seeker-

 

Because massive amounts of Saidin were used that close to the Pit of Doom (besides from everyone being powerful there would have been angreal used by more then a few members and if the Ring of the Tamirlyn was a san'greal like people suspect LTT would have brought it) it pick up the shadow that the DO was throwing out as a residue causing the taint.

 

Female Aes Sedai would also have helped, and massive amounts of saidar would have been used at Shayol Ghul. Why then is saidar not tainted?

[Kaznen]

The AS (remember men were also AS in AoL) at SG, LTT and the HC, were all men.  The BWB said that all the women AS formed a pact to not help LTT in this plan.  They thought without women the men can't link, if they can't link they won't try.

 

Saidar was not used at SG because the only female channlers at that party were Lanfear, Grendal, Semi, Mesaana, and Moggy and they weren't helping the good guys out.

[The Doctor]

Is BWB anything like BBW?

[Kaznen]

Is BWB anything like BBW?

It is the "Big White Book," it is a WoT source book published after CoS but before PoDs.

 

It contains details about the AoL (life, social structure, MO of the AS) a detailed bio about LTT and most of the forsaken.  Stuff about the breaking, Pact of Ten Nations, Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing, the WT stuff that isn't found in the main books.

 

It was based off of RJ notes and has illistrations of characters and creatures.

[Builder]

How thick is it? I imagine it's some sort of magazine thickness but it's a book right? How many pages?

[Mr Ares]

How thick is it? I imagine it's some sort of magazine thickness but it's a book right? How many pages?

Number of pages would probably vary according to edition, but Wikipedia says "The book has been printed in several formats. The original release on 6 November 1997 was a large-format hardback with a predominantly white cover. This led to the book being dubbed 'The Big White Book' by fans. This edition of the book runs to 304 pages." and "On 6 June 2002 Orbit re-released the book as a 461-page mass-market paperback".

[Builder]

Uhh, that sounds like a really fun read! I'm so gonna buy this book, and hopefully get time to read it in the summer vacation  ;D