Why Verin Risked Rand?

[tsunamic84]

So rereading The Great Hunt. In the part where Verin asks Rand to pick a symbol and use the Portal Stone to port them to Toman Head, she states there have been theories of worlds where reality is barely held together, air is not breathable, etc. And yet Verin urges the Dragon Reborn to risk killing them all to retrieve the Horn. I don't know that I'm confident in feeling Verin thought the risk minimal, and worth it to take them all to Toman Head. I would be concerned that it would be much more safe to risk travelling there on foot.

 

The risk to this path was that Fain would not be there, or would think they were not coming, making him torment the two-rivers in retaliation. But first off, Fain blocked the ways (for some reason). How could he reasonably expect the group to reach Toman Head quickly? When I first read the book, I thought this. And that he would reasonably expect the group to take months to get there. Which is why he carried on with his plans there. I'm surprised Verin did not come to this conclusion. Second, with the time dialation in other worlds, how can Verin reasonably expect to make it to Toman Head WHEN they wanted to? She trusted a man who had no idea how to channel to get them to the right spot at the right time, no trouble? As opposed to taking the much safer path, knowing Fain couldn't open the chest, blocked their path, yet still baited them, AND chances are they could have all died? Ending the world?

 

What do you guys think?

[DojoToad]

Perhaps she was relying on the pattern to ensure the right decision was made.

[tsunamic84]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Perhaps she was relying on the pattern to ensure the right decision was made.

 

Then couldn't she have relied on the pattern that the horn wouldn't be blown until the last battle as stated by the prophecies? And that taking the safe route would have worked just fine? I love the idea of the prophecies being a literary device in these books, but one failing of them is the characters have so much more leway because the prophecies always come true.

 

And on top of that, she was the one who really made the decision, not the prophecies right? If she was going to simply rely on them, she would have just been like "let's walk and see what happens", not "let's teleport through this crazy magical rock that could kill us".

 

Not to be argumentative right, just debating.

Edited December 29, 2022 by tsunamic84

[DojoToad]

Being a Brown - she has probably studied the prophecies, pattern, etc. more than your 'average' Aes Sedai.  If she was a true believer, perhaps she assumed the pattern was guiding her decision as well.

 

"The pattern brought us to a portal stone, might as well use it."

[tsunamic84]

30 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Being a Brown - she has probably studied the prophecies, pattern, etc. more than your 'average' Aes Sedai.  If she was a true believer, perhaps she assumed the pattern was guiding her decision as well.

 

"The pattern brought us to a portal stone, might as well use it."

 

Hmmm, yeah I can see that. Does it warrent a dive into danger that way? May still be up for discussion but maybe she saw it so.

[DojoToad]

Personally I hated the portal stones - we already had the Ways and Tel'aran'rhiod.  Are they connected, are they not?  Too much metaphysics for me.

[tsunamic84]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Personally I hated the portal stones - we already had the Ways and Tel'aran'rhiod.  Are they connected, are they not?  Too much metaphysics for me.

 

I've seen online they weren't popular. And they weren't really touched on again after what, the fourth book I think? I can agree they don't really fit in well.

[Scarloc99]

Once we found out she was of the black ajah I always felt that she was somehow given the knowledge by Lanfer somehow. But it did always feel a little bit like Robert Jordan was looking for a way out of getting Rand from A to B at the right time. 

[tsunamic84]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Once we found out she was of the black ajah I always felt that she was somehow given the knowledge by Lanfer somehow. But it did always feel a little bit like Robert Jordan was looking for a way out of getting Rand from A to B at the right time. 

That's how I felt. How many times is he gonna use the Ways? Not this time!

[Scarloc99]

2 hours ago, tsunamic84 said:

That's how I felt. How many times is he gonna use the Ways? Not this time!

I play DnD and the first 5 books all feel

like when you have a low level party who can’t teleport yet. You have to do all the boring stuff like walking or riding or getting a boat from A to B, then your wizard learns a teleport spell and suddenly the campaign can go much further afield :). 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

5 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I play DnD and the first 5 books all feel

like when you have a low level party who can’t teleport yet. You have to do all the boring stuff like walking or riding or getting a boat from A to B, then your wizard learns a teleport spell and suddenly the campaign can go much further afield :). 

Depends how permissive your DM is - I would not risk it until I had teleport without error. 

[wotfan4472]

Verin may have actually thought that there was a timeline where Rand uses the portal stone to retrieve the Horn without causing the battle at Falme.

 

I have a feeling that either she was not aware of two other False Dragons being active at that time that the prophesised Falme battle would deal with, or she was under orders of one of the Forsaken to disrupt Rand's efforts to get the Horn back.

 

The Forsaken would know of it's importance to the Last Battle.

[Jsbrads2]

Seems obvious to me that Verin believed Rand couldn’t disappear from the pattern altogether because of the pattern’s need for him. Hence it was safe. Much like the logic Moraine used to “allow” Rand when he used the Portal Stone to Rhuidean. 

[tsunamic84]

40 minutes ago, Jsbrads2 said:

Seems obvious to me that Verin believed Rand couldn’t disappear from the pattern altogether because of the pattern’s need for him. Hence it was safe. Much like the logic Moraine used to “allow” Rand when he used the Portal Stone to Rhuidean. 

If that was such a strong belief by Verin and Moiraine, why would there be any fear at all from any of them? Why would Moiraine be so vehement about Rand having to keep moving, to do this, to do that, when the pattern had it all under control? I would think that indication that at least Moiraine did not believe that. I have less evidence for Verin, so that's possible I guess. I'm not sure I believe it would be consistent with her character though. Personally.

[Sabio]

On 12/29/2022 at 2:43 PM, tsunamic84 said:

That's how I felt. How many times is he gonna use the Ways? Not this time!

Imagine trying to use the ways and bring all the Aiel with him?

 

Portal stones were around long before the Ways.  The Ways were for Stedding to Stedding, the portal stones were for other worlds. fast traveling to other areas.  The Dream World not everyone could enter and it was frowned upon to enter physically.   

 

Why did Fain go there and demand Rand follow?  It seems he had orders to take the Horn to the Blight.  I assume she knew Rand was the True Dragon and the False Dragons were no big concern.  Fain taking the Horn there, the prophecy, and such I assume probably led her to believe Rand had to go there and since Rand had already used a portal stone he probably could do it again.

[Asthereal]

Were there darkfriends present who may have known Verin was black ajah?

I don't remember who exactly was in that particular party, but that would explain why Verin would risk more. The shadow already knew Rand was a candidate for the Dragon Reborn (they've been after him for a while already), so Verin being extra careful to prevent him from doing something potentially dangerous to himself might be suspect.

 

Otherwise, Verin might not see it as super risky. That indeed could seem out of character. Though Verin  doesn't shy away from a little risk herself, as it turns out. In fact, she's the biggest risktaker of them all.

[tsunamic84]

6 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Were there darkfriends present who may have known Verin was black ajah?

I don't remember who exactly was in that particular party, but that would explain why Verin would risk more. The shadow already knew Rand was a candidate for the Dragon Reborn (they've been after him for a while already), so Verin being extra careful to prevent him from doing something potentially dangerous to himself might be suspect.

 

Otherwise, Verin might not see it as super risky. That indeed could seem out of character. Though Verin  doesn't shy away from a little risk herself, as it turns out. In fact, she's the biggest risktaker of them all.

 

The only one I think was a Darkfriend was Inktar (spelling?). But I would strongly assume he wouldn't have known Verrin was black. I don't think I could believe Verrin would put Rand in terrible danger just to avoid some suspicion. If she wanted him dead, she'd have killed him easily. If she was told to keep him alive, she could be seen as responsible for his death if she convinced him to use a portal stone. I just can't see it as a valid method of transportation given the risks. It's not like "Oh we could probably make it". It's like "yeah, we have like 1/100 chance of you being able to bring all of us without casualty. And Fain definitely knew we could use a portal stone, so he expects us at Toman Head now, even though he blocked the way. So we should take that chance. Instead of just riding a month" or however long it was. It all just doesn't quite add up. It just seems like Jordan was using this as a method of suspense, intrigue, or whatever else.

 

And to be clear I love this series and think it is extremely well done. My first few read throughs, I never thought of things like this, it was just so good. But now I do think like this.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Worth reminding you that the time pressure on the journey was that Mat would die before they reached Falme if they went overland.  Also the events were being influenced by Ba'alzamon in ways that were not fully sane.  

Edited January 18, 2023 by bringbackthomsmoustache

[tsunamic84]

6 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Worth reminding you that the time pressure on the journey was that Mat would die before they reached Falme if they went overland.  Also the events were being influenced by Ba'alzamon in ways that were not fully sane.  

The Matt issue is a great point. I somehow forgot that being focused on the bigger picture. And while Jordan wasn't really enforcing this idea at the time, the fact that if one goes, they all go, make it more a certainty that if they didn't use the portal stone, the world may as well have ended I believe.