Has Rings of Power proven that Fantasy Adaptations are really hard?

[Scarloc99]

6 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I’m forgetting, what was her exposure to Fain?

He went to the tower to get the dagger, but I always felt that is a weak excuse used by people who ignore the fact that RJ doesn’t really write clear motivations for many of his antagonists, they are just evil or power mad, or controlled by the dark lord. You never get more than a very surface explanation for actions. They do evil

things because they are evil. 

[Samt]

On 1/31/2023 at 9:42 AM, WhiteVeils said:

 

This! The outcry about Arwen was palpable, especially. I remember that really well.  

Sure, there are various things that were changed in the LOTR adaptation, but I don't think time has shown that those were all good choices.  Mostly, it has just shown that they were small enough and minimized their impact in a way that allows the original story to come through.  Tom Bombadil is mostly self contained so long as Aragorn comes up with some swords.  Arwen mostly just gets merged with Glorfindel.  Anduril gets reforged later and it impacts some things, but mostly it's just a sword and it's meaning is symbolic.  

I think the success of WoT will come down to whether or not time shows us that the changes were not very important to maintaining the overal story arc and themes.  I know you, @WhiteVeils, have put together some ideas of how season 2 can really bring things together and mostly bring the story back on track.  If that happens, I think that things are salvageable although season 1 will still always be a low point.  

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

22 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

22 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I’m forgetting, what was her exposure to Fain?

He went to the tower to get the dagger, but I always felt that is a weak excuse used by people who ignore the fact that RJ doesn’t really write clear motivations for many of his antagonists, they are just evil or power mad, or controlled by the dark lord. You never get more than a very surface explanation for actions. They do evil

things because they are evil. 

There are point of view sections where he is in conference with Elaida and later gloating to himself about the effect on her.  Elaida's errors are clearly written - she has fixated on her own interpretation of her foretellings and cannot consider any other possibilities (the royal house of Andor who are the key to saving the world must by house Trakand who she spent years "advising", not the previous house in place when she had her foretelling, the Amyrlyn in her later telling must be her, Rand al'Thor is causing all of the "death and division" he is at the heart of etc). 

[Scarloc99]

22 hours ago, Samt said:

Sure, there are various things that were changed in the LOTR adaptation, but I don't think time has shown that those were all good choices.  Mostly, it has just shown that they were small enough and minimized their impact in a way that allows the original story to come through.  Tom Bombadil is mostly self contained so long as Aragorn comes up with some swords.  Arwen mostly just gets merged with Glorfindel.  Anduril gets reforged later and it impacts some things, but mostly it's just a sword and it's meaning is symbolic.  

I think the success of WoT will come down to whether or not time shows us that the changes were not very important to maintaining the overal story arc and themes.  I know you, @WhiteVeils, have put together some ideas of how season 2 can really bring things together and mostly bring the story back on track.  If that happens, I think that things are salvageable although season 1 will still always be a low point.  

I am not saying good choices, i am saying time, and the infancy of social media at the time has meant the arguments and palpable hate for those changes has faded into legend and them myth. So people look at lord of the rings and say it didn’t cause much outrage at the time. 
 

Personally I have no Issues with the changes Peter Jackson made, each one was clearly thought through and had a reason. And saying there are too few female lead characters who do anything is a valid view when making a movie or TV show. 
 

I think modern tv shows and movies will always be tarred with the social media outrage. Search for WOT in 10 years and I imagine google will show as many posts deriding the choices made as supporting them. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am not saying good choices, i am saying time, and the infancy of social media at the time has meant the arguments and palpable hate for those changes has faded into legend and them myth. So people look at lord of the rings and say it didn’t cause much outrage at the time. 
 

Personally I have no Issues with the changes Peter Jackson made, each one was clearly thought through and had a reason. And saying there are too few female lead characters who do anything is a valid view when making a movie or TV show. 
 

I think modern tv shows and movies will always be tarred with the social media outrage. Search for WOT in 10 years and I imagine google will show as many posts deriding the choices made as supporting them. 

Why wait 10 years?  The pros and cons are already out there...

[Samt]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am not saying good choices, i am saying time, and the infancy of social media at the time has meant the arguments and palpable hate for those changes has faded into legend and them myth. So people look at lord of the rings and say it didn’t cause much outrage at the time. 
 

Personally I have no Issues with the changes Peter Jackson made, each one was clearly thought through and had a reason. And saying there are too few female lead characters who do anything is a valid view when making a movie or TV show. 
 

I think modern tv shows and movies will always be tarred with the social media outrage. Search for WOT in 10 years and I imagine google will show as many posts deriding the choices made as supporting them. 

Definitely there was criticism at the time, but anecdotally I think it was much less than the criticism of WoT.  Moreover, the criticism that I heard for LOTR at the time was mostly vocalized by people before they saw the movie(s).  People were concerned that the movie would not deliver and news that Arwen was having an expanded role(there were rumors that she would join the fellowship), that Tom Bombadil was being cut, or that other rumored changes were being made was seen as evidence that it was going to go badly.  I remember people laughing about an Elf army showing up at Helm's Deep.  And it didn't much make sense (I think it's clear that there is an elf army at Helm's Deep because Peter Jackson wanted to put an elf army on screen because he thought it would look awesome).  

 

But most people shut up after they saw the movies because they realized it was awesome. I didn't know any Tolkien fans that didn't like the movie after seeing it. 

 

With WoT, it has been very much the reverse.  People were excited and willing to accept that some changes would be needed.  They reserved criticism and wanted to see it.  And then they watched it and got increasingly more concerned.  

 

It's also important to recognize that the changes to LOTR and the changes to WoT in season 1 alone are not comparable in scope.  There is really no point in the LOTR film trilogy where you feel like you have gone wildly off course.  The characters pretty much follow the same path with the same companions.  Practically no new characters are added.  Those that are added are mostly just to give a face to groups that were previously unnamed (Lurtz for example).  Contrast that with WoT where several main characters are now heading off in different directions from their book counterparts.  

 

 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Why wait 10 years?  The pros and cons are already out there...

I mean if they pull a rabbit out the hat and the next seven seasons are amazing then you will still have the hate for season 1 all over the internet in a way the issues with LOTR was not. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean if they pull a rabbit out the hat and the next seven seasons are amazing then you will still have the hate for season 1 all over the internet in a way the issues with LOTR was not. 

That will have to be an awful big rabbit.  But its fine.  If the show gets amazing, then the commentary changes from WoT sucks to it had a slow start but was awesome after that - definitely worth the watch.

[Mailman]

7 hours ago, DojoToad said:

That will have to be an awful big rabbit.  But its fine.  If the show gets amazing, then the commentary changes from WoT sucks to it had a slow start but was awesome after that - definitely worth the watch.

Agree. Season 1 I hated but if the show can improve I will be overjoyed. I was incredibly excited when I heard the show was being made and that lasted all the way till the first 3 episodes came out. Can it beome great, maybe, will it I doubt it.

 

 

[DigificWriter]

If you don't or can't enjoy the show for what it is and as it is, you might as well not watch it because nothing that happens going forward is honestly going to be satisfactory for you.

[Mailman]

13 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

If you don't or can't enjoy the show for what it is and as it is, you might as well not watch it because nothing that happens going forward is honestly going to be satisfactory for you.

Well you can enjoy the echo chamber of mediocrity by yourself then if you wish. But until the show improves or ends I will continue to express my dissatisfaction with it in a constructive and civil way as I have been doing.

 

I am a 30+ year fan of the original IP who was super excited that my favorite book series was coming to TV .

 

I would love to be able to walk away from the series but because of my love of the original work it is almost impossible that will occur no matter how bad the series gets. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

If you don't or can't enjoy the show for what it is and as it is, you might as well not watch it because nothing that happens going forward is honestly going to be satisfactory for you.

That is true for me and why I only watched half of S1.  But I'm hoping S2 can turn it around.

 

I also see @Mailman's perspective.  I've been reading WoT since late 1992 or early 1993 and desperately want to enjoy the show, or a future show or movie.  But for now, I'll have to settle for the books and these forums to get my WoT fix...

[DigificWriter]

My point is that hatewatching the show hoping it will suddenly somehow become something you don't hate is a self-perpetuating Catch-22 that only ultimately harms you as a viewer. 

 

Subsequent seasons are almost guaranteed to improve on Season 1 simply because of the nature of progressive storytelling and Production, but the show is ultimately never going to satisfy anyone who isn't already or can't get on board* with the approach that Rafe and his team are taking in adapting the source material.

 

* This doesn't mean being 100% satisfied with everything that the show is doing; it means taking the show as it exists even if you have some issues with it

 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

Subsequent seasons are almost guaranteed to improve on Season 1 simply because of the nature of progressive storytelling and Production, but the show is ultimately never going to satisfy anyone who isn't already or can't get on board* with the approach that Rafe and his team are taking in adapting the source material.

It took 3-4 episodes for me to get on board with the American version of 'The Office'.  But then I was all in - even when it started going downhill with Steve Carell's departure.

 

I will give it another try when S2 comes out.  But I fear you are correct in that Rafe and his team's adaptation style will not work for me.  One or two episodes will tell...

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

Can't speak for others, but I liked the first half of the season, it was the second half that I had major issue with. I just think things started getting worse as the season went on and the last episode  was just terrible. I know the covid excuse, but I would have been happier if they just had not had it at all. I still have a lot of hope it will get better, but the things I hear do not give me a lot of hope. I plan on sticking with it through season 3 because I just love the books

[DojoToad]

46 minutes ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

Can't speak for others, but I liked the first half of the season, it was the second half that I had major issue with. I just think things started getting worse as the season went on and the last episode  was just terrible. I know the covid excuse, but I would have been happier if they just had not had it at all. I still have a lot of hope it will get better, but the things I hear do not give me a lot of hope. I plan on sticking with it through season 3 because I just love the books

Why stop at S3?

 

Or for that matter, why stick with it if you don't like it?

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

Like I said, I thought the first part was pretty good, giving them a break because of COVID and heard Season 3 would be more align with the book. Now if season 2 is like the last half of season 1 then I will be out,

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

Like I said, I thought the first part was pretty good, giving them a break because of COVID and heard Season 3 would be more align with the book. Now if season 2 is like the last half of season 1 then I will be out,

 

You can ultimately do what you want, but you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

If you can't get on board with the show as it exists now, nothing that it does is ever going to satisfy you.

[DojoToad]

47 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

You can ultimately do what you want, but you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

If you can't get on board with the show as it exists now, nothing that it does is ever going to satisfy you.

If you can get on board with the show as it exists now, anything that it does will satisfy you. 

[DigificWriter]

3 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

If you can get on board with the show as it exists now, anything that it does will satisfy you. 

 

Not really.

 

Sarah Caplan of the YouTube channel Maidens of the Spear - as hardcore a WoT novel fan as you are likely to find anywhere - was very vocal about her disappointment with the Season 1 finale, but remains open to and positive about the direction of the show as a whole, which is what I'm referencing when I talk about getting on board with what the show is doing.

 

You can be critical of some of the decisions that have been made without trashing or calling into question the overall trajectory of the show and without declaring that you're only continuing to watch the show in the ultimately vain hope that it will somehow suddenly morph into the kind of adaptation you want it to be.

[DojoToad]

20 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Not really.

 

Sarah Caplan of the YouTube channel Maidens of the Spear - as hardcore a WoT novel fan as you are likely to find anywhere - was very vocal about her disappointment with the Season 1 finale, but remains open to and positive about the direction of the show as a whole, which is what I'm referencing when I talk about getting on board with what the show is doing.

 

You can be critical of some of the decisions that have been made without trashing or calling into question the overall trajectory of the show and without declaring that you're only continuing to watch the show in the ultimately vain hope that it will somehow suddenly morph into the kind of adaptation you want it to be.

S1 was a complete failure for me but it was not just because of adaptation decisions. For example, Ender’s Game changed a lot from the book but I thought the movie was still an exceptional adaptation including the differences. Where as WoT just didn’t execute well whether staying the same, changing things, or adding new material.

 

I still hope S2 improves as Rafe and his team mature in their roles. Doesn’t have to be what I want or expect, just needs to be good - which I know is very subjective…

 

If S2 does better then I can live with a less than stellar S1 because the ship has been righted.