Oddness to saidin

[Shadar Logothian]

Apologies if this has already been asked and answered, but I didn't see it.  In TPoD, Chapter 23, Dashiva complains about an oddness to Saidin which Rand ignores.  Then Rand loses control with Callandor.  Is it every explained what that oddness is?  I don't believe anyone attempted to take control of Rand through the flaw in Callandor.  I would think a major item like this would be explained at some point.

[DojoToad]

I don't recall  - was Rand actually wielding/channeling through Callandor when Dashiva complains of the oddness?

[VooDooNut]

Spoiler

It's the Bowl of The Winds drawing so much Saidin (and Saidar) that causes the "oddness", I believe.

 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

The oddness appears to be contained close to Ebou Dar (which is also close to where the bowl was used) but I got the impression that it was due to the collapsed portal explosion that the source was odd there.  The damane were reporting similar problems so it was not just Saidin that was odd.

[JyP]

Yes, for me it's not so much the Bowl of the Winds, than Aviendha Elayne unknotting her Portal to flee the Seanchan - which resulted in a catastrophic explosion and The One Power being way more untamed and wild all over the place.

Edited October 19, 2022 by JyP

[Stedding Tofu]

I don't think this is ever addressed clearly in story but I'm pretty sure RJ confirmed that stressing a powerful ter'angreal by overusing it causes a disturbance in the force an instability in the one power.  So this is a direct and lingering after-effect of the use of The Bowl of The Winds.

 

Not a particularly satisfactory explanation to me as it suggests the force that drives the wheel of time can become unstable through human meddling but there it is.  Maybe regard it as ripples in a pond caused by a  stone but the stone has to be huge to cause any impact.

[DojoToad]

33 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Not a particularly satisfactory explanation to me as it suggests the force that drives the wheel of time can become unstable through human meddling but there it is.  Maybe regard it as ripples in a pond caused by a  stone but the stone has to be huge to cause any impact.

Kind of like humans affecting climate?

 

I think climate and weather patterns are huge engines that in general churn on without much notice of puny humans.  But I think we can cause ripples that may create temporary instability.

[VooDooNut]

3 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

I don't think this is ever addressed clearly in story but I'm pretty sure RJ confirmed that stressing a powerful ter'angreal by overusing it causes a disturbance in the force an instability in the one power.  So this is a direct and lingering after-effect of the use of The Bowl of The Winds.

 

Not a particularly satisfactory explanation to me as it suggests the force that drives the wheel of time can become unstable through human meddling but there it is.  Maybe regard it as ripples in a pond caused by a  stone but the stone has to be huge to cause any impact.

Agreed. Definitely not satisfactory.

 

Spoiler

Why doesn't Rand's use of the Choeden Kai cause the same issues?

Spoiler

And if it were Aviendha's make-shift nuke, why doesn't the same effect materialize at The Last Battle when she does a similar attack against Graendal?

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by VooDooNut

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

In reference to the above - how a partially unknotted weave fails is random.  This is why they did not try to replicate a collapsing portal as a weapon.  Also the Ebou Dar collapse was partially unknotted and then held that way for a long time while the weave is described as "fraying" at random, potentially resulting in multiple effects (the explosion plus the destabilisation).

[VooDooNut]

*shrug* I wish it was more clearly explained in the books, but I could certainly be convinced it was Aviendha and not the BOTW that caused the issue. To @Stedding Tofu's point, it seems odd that the source of power for the world can be affected in this way by humans.

[DojoToad]

8 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

*shrug* I wish it was more clearly explained in the books, but I could certainly be convinced it was Aviendha and not the BOTW that caused the issue. To @Stedding Tofu's point, it seems odd that the source of power for the world can be affected in this way by humans.

Yet we have no problem thinking humans can affect climate?

 

I think they do and can - though I also think it is often overstated.  So I don't have any problem making the leap to humans affecting the source of power.

[VooDooNut]

5 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Yet we have no problem thinking humans can affect climate?

 

I think they do and can - though I also think it is often overstated.  So I don't have any problem making the leap to humans affecting the source of power.

The disconnect for me comes from how the  TBOTW/Aviendha affected the One Power and the lack of effect the two most powerful sa’angreal, used in conjunction, had on the One Power. That’s where I get confused. 

[DojoToad]

54 minutes ago, VooDooNut said:

The disconnect for me comes from how the  TBOTW/Aviendha affected the One Power and the lack of effect the two most powerful sa’angreal, used in conjunction, had on the One Power. That’s where I get confused. 

Maybe a flaw like in Callandor?

[VooDooNut]

3 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Maybe a flaw like in Callandor?

The Bowl also wasn’t used with men in the circle, so it could of been an effect of the bowl channeling Saidin unguided. 
 

Edit: assuming the effect was the result of the bowl and not Aviendha.

Edited October 18, 2022 by VooDooNut

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

Since I do love to be pedantic it was Elayne who attempted to unweave her portal having seen Aviendha do so on her portal from Ebou Dar to the farm and having no idea how hard it is to do this.

Edited October 19, 2022 by bringbackthomsmoustache

[Kalessin]

Well, the Taint on Saidin was a surface effect, an interference in the interface between human males and the One Power. So I wouldn't find it difficult if the combined use of the weather ter'angreal and Elayne's blundering under extreme pressure - combined with an attack which disturbed her control of Saidar - meant that other people didn't have full control of either Saidin or Saidar because some of the flow was still disturbed and taking its time in settling down.

 

That's my suggestion. Take it or leave it as you see fit. 🙂

[JyP]

18 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

*shrug* I wish it was more clearly explained in the books, but I could certainly be convinced it was Aviendha and not the BOTW that caused the issue. To @Stedding Tofu's point, it seems odd that the source of power for the world can be affected in this way by humans.

After Aviendha Elayne closes the Portal in a random way and causes an explosion, in the same chapter, Elayne  asks Aviendha if it can be reproduced at will - a mighty weapon against Seanchans - and Aviendha answers anything could have happened, including a simple flash of light or being stilled.

Edited October 19, 2022 by JyP

[Stedding Tofu]

13 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

The disconnect for me comes from how the  TBOTW/Aviendha affected the One Power and the lack of effect the two most powerful sa’angreal, used in conjunction, had on the One Power. That’s where I get confused. 

 

The Bowl of The Winds is a ter'angreal while the choeden kal are giant sa'angreal.  That might seem an academic distinction but ter'angreal are basically devices or machines with a specific purpose (some can be operated by those who cannot wield the power) while angreal and sa'angreal are batteries or power amplifiers.  So the specific nature of ter'angreal - or maybe a ter'angreal rather than all ter'angreal - are what render this odd effect possible.  Additionally it's not the amount of power channelled that causes the weird effect but the type of device and weaves in conjunction with the massive amount of power wielded by the circle, many of whom have angreal.  I think all three elements are required to cause this and the amount of power increases the area of effect.

 

There's quite a lot about it here:

 

https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/Bowl_of_the_Winds

[JyP]

18 hours ago, VooDooNut said:

it seems odd that the source of power for the world can be affected in this way by humans.

 

Well, there are Ages where the One Power does not exist / is not available. An RJ hinted that WoT may be our far future : my personal take on this would be that the One Power is certainly a highly technological device and/or genetic engineering (a bit like Solarians in Foundation and Earth)

[Stedding Tofu]

22 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Kind of like humans affecting climate?

 

I think climate and weather patterns are huge engines that in general churn on without much notice of puny humans.  But I think we can cause ripples that may create temporary instability.

 

You think RJ was giving us an ecological warning?  Or, since you've been re-reading it, maybe a nod to the Belgariad/Mallorean?  IIRC Garion does something to conjure a cloud or local weather phenomenon for Ce'Nedra and Belgarath turns up months later in a foul mood and chews him out because he's been dealing with all the knock-on effects of Garion screwing with the weather.

[VooDooNut]

8 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Since I do love to be pedantic it was Elayne who attempted to unweave her portal having seen Aviendha do so on her portal from Ebou Dar to the farm and having no idea how hard it is to do this.

Whoops! Got my ladies mixed up! Fairs points all around. This definitely gives me something to think about.

[DojoToad]

6 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

You think RJ was giving us an ecological warning? 

Not at all - the comparison was solely mine.  I just thought it was funny that many people (not you) beat the drum for the human impact on climate but then turn around and say they don't buy that humans can affect the force that drives the wheel - even though they are tapping into it.  All that said - maybe RJ was giving a veiled warning...

 

6 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Or, since you've been re-reading it, maybe a nod to the Belgariad/Mallorean?  IIRC Garion does something to conjure a cloud or local weather phenomenon for Ce'Nedra and Belgarath turns up months later in a foul mood and chews him out because he's been dealing with all the knock-on effects of Garion screwing with the weather.

Yes - Garion did screw up the weather and got chewed out by Belgarath.  But I believe that the Sea Folk and maybe the Aes Sedai also commented on widespread effects on climate based on local weather disruptions.  So another connection between RJ and DE.

Edited October 19, 2022 by DojoToad

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

18 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

IIRC Garion does something to conjure a cloud or local weather phenomenon for Ce'Nedra and Belgarath turns up months later in a foul mood and chews him out because he's been dealing with all the knock-on effects of Garion screwing with the weather.

He calls down a massive lightning storm to prevent the Arends from having a civil war.

[Elendir]

The Bowl of The Winds was heavily used during the Last Battle without any impact on saidin and saidar. Phenomen has nothing to do with bowl. It is showing, that "dont untangle weaving" is good advice.

[Stedding Tofu]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:11 AM, Elendir said:

The Bowl of The Winds was heavily used during the Last Battle without any impact on saidin and saidar. Phenomen has nothing to do with bowl. It is showing, that "dont untangle weaving" is good advice.

 

The Bowl of The Winds was used outside Ebou Dar to effect the whole world.  During Tarmon Gai'don it's used locally to keep at bay a storm summoned by The Dark One (who has special influence that close to the bore).  Given it's intended use is local the effect is not repeated here.

 

It's use at Ebou Dar was by a full circle many of whom had angreal so magnifying the power used.  We can expect a full circle to use the Bowl at Shayol Ghul but without angreal or Nynaeve.

 

This is confirmed by the link I posted above and also in The Wheel of Time Companion's entry for The Bowl of The Winds:

 

"A circle of thirteen could do enough to alter the weather changes in the world caused by The Dark One but not enough to buffer the results.  This ter'angreal was designed to work over a small region.  The advanced knowledge of the Windfinders meant they could spread its effects over a larger area, which resulted in it affecting the One Power and physical conditions on the ground, radiating out from near Ebou Dar where it was used to at least as far as the Altara-Illian border where Rand's armies were fighting the Seanchan."