what if cadsuane SNITCHES

[pig]

If Rand is revealed as alive, especially without the power to channel anymore, I feel like the Aes Sedai, Seanchan, etc would make his like suck.

 

This concept is one of the main reasons why I'm sad that RJ never got to do his sequels.

[DojoToad]

Cadsuane?  I thought she was dead...

[Stedding Tofu]

7 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Cadsuane?  I thought she was dead...

 

Cadsuane is just about revealed as the new Amyrlin at the end.  We're in her pov as she watches Rand ride away in Moridin's body.

 

6 hours ago, pig said:

If Rand is revealed as alive, especially without the power to channel anymore, I feel like the Aes Sedai, Seanchan, etc would make his like suck.

 

As he can't channel and intends to lie low I think Cadsuane will be content to let the world believes he is dead.  Much easier for her to go about rebuilding the power of the Aes Sedai, dealing with the Asha'man and generally projecting the Amyrlin Seat as the leader of the "free world" with Rand out of the way.

 

And for all the (for me) unpleasant way she wields authority and browbeats and bullies those around her she's no Elaida and I don't think he need fear assassination.  She considers the world owes Rand a debt of gratitude and the least part of that is leaving him in peace.

[DojoToad]

48 minutes ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Cadsuane is just about revealed as the new Amyrlin at the end.  We're in her pov as she watches Rand ride away in Moridin's body.

 

 

Sorry, I forgot the sarcasm emoji.  Was playing on a joke from the series.

[JyP]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

And for all the (for me) unpleasant way she wields authority and browbeats and bullies those around her she's no Elaida and I don't think he need fear assassination.  She considers the world owes Rand a debt of gratitude and the least part of that is leaving him in peace.

 

How noble. And maybe a bit of "I called him a boy for so much time and was revealed as the fool one, I don't need my sisters to see me as an inferior to Rand Sedai, whom I won't be able to paint as an uncultured lout unlike the Black Tower guys"

[pig]

4 hours ago, Stedding Tofu said:

 

Cadsuane is just about revealed as the new Amyrlin at the end.  We're in her pov as she watches Rand ride away in Moridin's body.

 

 

As he can't channel and intends to lie low I think Cadsuane will be content to let the world believes he is dead.  Much easier for her to go about rebuilding the power of the Aes Sedai, dealing with the Asha'man and generally projecting the Amyrlin Seat as the leader of the "free world" with Rand out of the way.

 

And for all the (for me) unpleasant way she wields authority and browbeats and bullies those around her she's no Elaida and I don't think he need fear assassination.  She considers the world owes Rand a debt of gratitude and the least part of that is leaving him in peace.

In Cadsuane's POV, the book does state "That would be information she could use" which makes me believe she will use Rand in some way.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

8 hours ago, pig said:

In Cadsuane's POV, the book does state "That would be information she could use" which makes me believe she will use Rand in some way.

Use to influence / blackmail the three rather than use Rand specifically?

[Stedding Tofu]

21 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Sorry, I forgot the sarcasm emoji.  Was playing on a joke from the series.

Eh, I figured I might be missing your intent 🙂

[Stedding Tofu]

17 hours ago, pig said:

In Cadsuane's POV, the book does state "That would be information she could use" which makes me believe she will use Rand in some way.

 

It's possible I suppose but, as a lot of people saw him die and cremated, not to mention the world believed The Dragon was prophesied to die at Shayol Ghul, it would be difficult to make people believe.  Aes Sedai can't lie but they can twist the truth into a pretzel so whatever she said there is this guy who looks nothing like Rand al'Thor.

 

Plus he can't channel and is no longer ta'veren so has limited use to her and presents no possible opposing or contending locus of power.  Essentially he's like Frodo, shorn of the ring, settling back into obscurity (concealed obscurity in this case) after his labours and sacrifices.  That's what I think RJ was aiming for.  If Cadsuane does try to appropriate him there is that question of how he lit his pipe and she might be in for a surprise...

[pig]

how did he light his pipe?

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, pig said:

how did he light his pipe?

Willpower 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

6 hours ago, DojoToad said:

8 hours ago, pig said:

how did he light his pipe?

Willpower 

More that following his experience outside time trading possible worlds with the dark one he gained the ability to edit the real world selectively just as you can edit the dream world while present in the flesh.

[JyP]

for me, it would be the equivalent of the "True power" bestowed by the Dark One : a power bestowed by the Creator to successful Dragons (or max level ta'veren).

[Stedding Tofu]

2 hours ago, JyP said:

for me, it would be the equivalent of the "True power" bestowed by the Dark One : a power bestowed by the Creator to successful Dragons (or max level ta'veren).

 

With power comes a burden of responsibility and the ending is meant to show us his task is complete, not that he's on course for a new one so would RJ really want to give him such power? 

 

If he's just going to light his pipe or make fireworks for young hobbits like Gandalf it's ok though.

[qlorin]

On 10/11/2022 at 1:00 PM, Stedding Tofu said:

Plus he can't channel and is no longer ta'veren so has limited use to her and presents no possible opposing or contending locus of power.

I disagree... There are many in the world follow Rand if he raises his banner even if he has no power... Aiel will definetly follow him in their own way... Some other nations and groups also will... I am not sure about black tower... 

He bacame a charismatic leader in the end... We see in the story even some false dragons without channeling abilty gathered men around them... And we are talking about real dragon reborn who saved the world... He will be the biggest political tool in the world...

 

On 10/10/2022 at 7:23 PM, pig said:

In Cadsuane's POV, the book does state "That would be information she could use" which makes me believe she will use Rand in some way.

I believe this was before she realizes some sitter Aes Seadai looking her to make her Amyrlin... It is not a serious thought about politics... More like "knowledge is power" statement...
 

On 10/13/2022 at 1:17 AM, pig said:

how did he light his pipe?

 

On 10/13/2022 at 11:27 AM, JyP said:

for me, it would be the equivalent of the "True power" bestowed by the Dark One : a power bestowed by the Creator to successful Dragons (or max level ta'veren).

There is a theory... It goes like this...

Duality is a major theme in the novel... Everything has its opposite equivalent... Man/woman , dark/light , saidin/saidar... Even taint in saidin has shadar logoth taint as a opposite...

There are 3 tiers of dual force in the Wheel of Time

Tier 3 (spilit by gender): Saidin , Saidar (base powers) 
Tier 2 (split by morality): One power (unbroken saidin and saidar) , True power 
Tier 1  (split by reality): Willpower (unbroken One and True power) , Tel'aran'rhiod power 

We see any amount of saidin or saidar doesnt match what you can do with True power because True power is in higher tier... Even most destructive weave Balefire "just a waeve" if you have Tel'aran'rhiod power you can dismiss it...

Rand gets this ability in the end because in the bore he is using unimaginable amounts of Saidin Saidar and True Power at the same time... Also he is out of reality... Also he doesnt choose light or dark scenerios he chooses balance in the end...
 

[Sabio]

I doubt she feels Rand is going to stir up much trouble, but knowing he is alive does mean she can watch his three women now to see if he shows up.  Being Aes Sedai she could use the information if say Elayne started causing issues or such.  I suspect she feels Rand has earned his freedom but watching his ladies could allow her to keep tabs on him now.

[pig]

I would also assume the white tower would learn of Rand's powers. Afterall he was linked with Moraine when he wielded the True Source and the Pure Forms of saiden and saidar. They wouldn't know that he couldn't use those powers anymore but I doubt they'd leave someone with that much power alone. Also, I don't remember but what happened to Callandor?

[Sabio]

I think it was left in the cave.   Ishy was holding it when Nyn and Moriaine ran for their lives.  Rand was bleeding out, nearly blind, and carrying Ishy so it's unlikely he picked it up.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Sabio

[Stedding Tofu]

On 10/14/2022 at 4:37 PM, qlorin said:

I disagree... There are many in the world follow Rand if he raises his banner even if he has no power... Aiel will definetly follow him in their own way... Some other nations and groups also will... I am not sure about black tower... 
 

 

Well, if he raises his banner then, yes, he is a potential locus of power.  As he can't channel this seems unlikely and he would simply paint a target on himself for the Seanchan or for rivals who would be jealous of his influence.  A really ruthless Cadsuane would snuff him out to prevent even the possibility that he would be a rival power centre but I think we're meant to see him shuffle off into peace and obscurity.  Remember that the world believes him dead and he looks nothing like "himself".

 

Black Tower were effectively abandoned by him and Logain is the Asha'man leader.

 

On 10/14/2022 at 4:37 PM, qlorin said:

He bacame a charismatic leader in the end... We see in the story even some false dragons without channeling abilty gathered men around them... And we are talking about real dragon reborn who saved the world... He will be the biggest political tool in the world..

 

False Dragons gathered men because of prophecy but with prophecy fulfilled there's no recruiting drum to bang.  His destiny has been fulfilled and the world believes him dead.  The story could have been set up to have him live and lead his alliance for hundreds of years - or whatever lifespan he has - contending with the Seanchan or Sharans but, like Frodo, we're shown his labours ended and a life of peace and anonymity his reward.

[qlorin]

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

Well, if he raises his banner then, yes, he is a potential locus of power.  As he can't channel this seems unlikely and he would simply paint a target on himself for the Seanchan or for rivals who would be jealous of his influence.

We are agreeing on most parts... What I disagreed was "Can Rand be a political power or not"... I think he can if somebody wants to use him.... But, letting him go to anonymity is much more likely. Cadsuane doesnt want to scramble the world once more by using Rand. But if she wants she can do it. Seanchen have civil war issues... 
 

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

A really ruthless Cadsuane would snuff him out to prevent even the possibility that he would be a rival power centre

Cadsuane knows Rand is alive somehow. She also knows 3 woman will know the second of his death.  (ruler of the strongest nation in the randland , high ranking "ruler" of strongest non-channelig fighting force , high ranking advisor to strongest channeling army in the world) .

She doesnt know this is false but if I were Cadsune I also suspect Nynaeve and Moiraine also knows the truth. Two woman in the bore who are already legendary with their  prior accomplishments.

In her eyes maybe even Perrin and Mat knows 😄.

Even a ruthless Cadsuane never try anything to harm Rand. Using him as a tool is more likely but still unlikely 😄

 

1 hour ago, Stedding Tofu said:

like Frodo, we're shown his labours ended and a life of peace and anonymity his reward.

But I agree with you. Rand doesnt want anything major in his life anymore. This is the end of his story.
This is a new age. New stories new heroes.

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by qlorin

[Stedding Tofu]

20 hours ago, qlorin said:

We are agreeing on most parts... What I disagreed was "Can Rand be a political power or not"... I think he can if somebody wants to use him.... But, letting him go to anonymity is much more likely. Cadsuane doesnt want to scramble the world once more by using Rand. But if she wants she can do it. Seanchen have civil war issues... 
 

 

I think it highly likely that those connected to Rand, opportunists claiming to be connected to Rand, and pure speculators / madmen claiming Rand's mantle / blessing will try and use his legacy for their own purposes.

 

We only need look at our own world to see how this plays out and how the relics of a saviour or conqueror can be used or fabricated to claim legitimacy and advance individual's agendas.  In story the struggle after the collapse of Hawkwing's empire and Masema's claim to be Rand's prophet are good examples.  Elayne having acknowledged that her children are Rand's being another, possibly Aviendha too if some of her vision from her second trip to Rhuidean comes to pass.

 

It's also possible that people will claim to be ""The Dragon Reborn" Reborn"! and spread tales of their miraculous reincarnation after their death at Shayol Ghul.  This would be particularly ironic as we know it's true, even if they were lying / mad.  If people in our world believe Elvis or JFK are really still alive or came back from the dead (not to mention religious belief) then it's quite possible charlatans or "Light-blessed savants" will spring up like mushrooms.  If people fell for Masema and believed The Dragon was The Light made flesh this would not be difficult for them to believe.

 

Is it possible Cadsuane would wish to use Rand for her own purposes or to counter some of this?  Yes, certainly.  Post-Tarmon Gai'don is an incredibly dangerous moment with a fragile truce between the Seanchan and The Dragon's coalition likely to be under constant pressure, the White Tower badly damaged and threatened by The Black and other groups of channelers outside it's control. 

 

But I think the anonymity granted by the body swap and his unwillingness to be used will shield him from being a pawn - with the lighting of his pipe intended to show that, despite no longer being ta'veren or able to channel, he is not defenceless and won't be imprisoned in a gilded cage or used as a figurehead.

[Sabio]

Rand doesn't want to be a political power but if this guy who looks nothing like Rand claims to be Rand, there will be a lot of explaining he would need to do.  Cas especially would have a lot of explaining to do if she mentioned anything.  The Aes Sedai would be really upset.  Like why did she just let someone who looked like a captured Forsaken just walk out of the camp, especially if she thought it's Rand.  My guess is still she will use the knowledge to watch Elayne and Avi.  That would allow her to keep tabs on Rand if he shows up.  If Rand should start to cause issues, she could pass a message on to them saying she knows the secret and to have him stop.

[Asthereal]

On 10/13/2022 at 12:17 AM, pig said:

how did he light his pipe?

 

I see this as follows: during his struggle against  Shai'tan, he learns about the nature of the pattern, and weaves it in such a way that the Dark One's prison is restored to its old perfect state.

While he can't channel Saidin anymore, some of the power he wielded during that time still lingers, and allows him to will things into happening more or less in the same way one would will things into being in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Though this is expressly left unexplained, in order for us to theorize and debate, I think. Which we do, ad nauseam. 🙂 

[SinisterDeath]

50 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

 

I see this as follows: during his struggle against  Shai'tan, he learns about the nature of the pattern, and weaves it in such a way that the Dark One's prison is restored to its old perfect state.

While he can't channel Saidin anymore, some of the power he wielded during that time still lingers, and allows him to will things into happening more or less in the same way one would will things into being in Tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Though this is expressly left unexplained, in order for us to theorize and debate, I think. Which we do, ad nauseam. 🙂 

I personally go so far as, this is a power he's had since book 1.

Early in the series we learn just how dangerous weaving is. One wrong thread placement, and catastrophe. 

I often describe what Rand did to Bela, at the Inn, on the ship, and at the eye of the world, akin to cross stitching a 10'x10' tapestry of the entire wheel of time series as seen from the creators POV, behind his back, blindfolded while his hands fell asleep.

My running theory is:

Spoiler

Rand wants something to happen, and that pattern is injected into reality. Observers would see the threads form the weave.

Nynaeve wants to heal, so that weave is injected into reality, and the threads do what they do.

Everyone else, they learn to see what they're doing, and then apply the scientific method to the OP to understand how it works. When Rand & Nynaeve learn to see what they're doing, they unlearn what they were doing before, and learn how the system works from those who believe they know how it works.

I'm probably wrong in my theory, but IMO it fits within the theme ever present in the book.
"Those in power, only think they know how the world works."

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

I think it is more the case that anyone who is manifesting the power without training uses it instinctively, possibly from past life knowledge.  Nynaeve's instinctive uses all appear to have been healing - not just of injuries but also of disease which are likely to have been more complex than most of Rands instinctive uses (other than the washing fatigue and strengthening he does on Bela he appears to use simple wind to slam a trolloc with the boom on Bale Domon's ship and relatively simple calling lightning from an existing storm).