Alanna and her Warders

[Jaccsen]

Alanna CBR story

 

What do you guys feel about this latest story indicating that Alanna and her relationship with her warders will get yet more screen time in season 2?

 

I was not a fan of the mount of time devoted to the made up from scratch warder storylines from S1. Alanna is a minor character. We do not need more screen time devoted to her outside of her actual role in the books. This indicates that they will continue to double down on their own story while cutting most of the actual events of the books from the show.

[DaddyFinn]

If the show keeps Alanna's and Rand's "relationship" somewhat similar than in the books this could be a good thing

[DojoToad]

Yes, it could be good for the show at the expense of the books.  But I think we all realize that the books are only the barest framework for the show.

 

Don't like it from a book perspective, but if it makes for a better show it might come out as a wash...

[Nik]

I don't see how that's an issue. Giving more screentime to a few characters to consolidate storylines and avoid having to keep track of dozens of different people seems like a good move. There's no indication that we won't still get the important events from the books.

 

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, Nik said:

I don't see how that's an issue. Giving more screentime to a few characters to consolidate storylines and avoid having to keep track of dozens of different people seems like a good move. There's no indication that we won't still get the important events from the books.

 

S1 was a very good indication of more screen time to minor or made up characters (Stepin) at the expense of major will continue. And how major events played out - who did what ( destruction of Trolloc army). 
 

There is no indication that Rafe will change his strategy from S1. Use the books as a framework while the story is his. 

[Andra]

22 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

S1 was a very good indication of more screen time to minor or made up characters (Stepin) at the expense of major will continue. And how major events played out - who did what ( destruction of Trolloc army). 
 

There is no indication that Rafe will change his strategy from S1. Use the books as a framework while the story is his. 

I don't disagree with your basic point, but want to clarify one thing:

Stepin was not made up - though he was minor.

 

Karene Nagashi was actually the Captain General of the Green Ajah, and had two Warders - of whom Stepin was one (the other was named Karile).  The problem is that she was the head of the Greens when Moiraine first started searching for the Dragon Reborn.  And she was murdered by the Black Ajah along with the rest of Tamra Ospenya's "searchers."  Presumably, her Warders dies at the same time.

 

Twenty years before the events in the TV show.

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, Andra said:

I don't disagree with your basic point, but want to clarify one thing:

Stepin was not made up - though he was minor.

 

Karene Nagashi was actually the Captain General of the Green Ajah, and had two Warders - of whom Stepin was one (the other was named Karile).  The problem is that she was the head of the Greens when Moiraine first started searching for the Dragon Reborn.  And she was murdered by the Black Ajah along with the rest of Tamra Ospenya's "searchers."  Presumably, her Warders dies at the same time.

 

Twenty years before the events in the TV show.

Right, I should have been more careful in my placement of his name.  I was thinking more of the terminator darkfriend that Mat and Rand encountered.

[SilentRoamer]

I really don't understand this fleshing out of minor characters when major characters are so underdeveloped. 

I understand we need some characters fleshed out and we need some characters cutting, but do we really need to spend so much of an episode fleshing out a character only to kill them off (looking at you Stepin). I understand it was supposed to be exposition, but it also ruined Lans character by making him show too much overt emotion. 
 

[DaddyFinn]

8 minutes ago, SilentRoamer said:

it also ruined Lans character by making him show too much overt emotion. 

This has been explained over and over again

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

agree with "I really don't understand this fleshing out of minor characters when major characters are so underdeveloped. ' statement. This one of my biggest issue with the show.

Edited August 12, 2022 by BookMattBetterThanShow
Just hit the send button to soon

[Skipp]

9 hours ago, Andra said:

I don't disagree with your basic point, but want to clarify one thing:

Stepin was not made up - though he was minor.

 

Karene Nagashi was actually the Captain General of the Green Ajah, and had two Warders - of whom Stepin was one (the other was named Karile).  The problem is that she was the head of the Greens when Moiraine first started searching for the Dragon Reborn.  And she was murdered by the Black Ajah along with the rest of Tamra Ospenya's "searchers."  Presumably, her Warders dies at the same time.

 

Twenty years before the events in the TV show.

Interestingly she might still have been head of the Ajah.  At the very least a sitter as one of the Green's positions is absent in episode 6.

 

2 hours ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

agree with "I really don't understand this fleshing out of minor characters when major characters are so underdeveloped. ' statement. This one of my biggest issue with the show.

 

Fleshing out the minor characters to explore major lore dumps is not a terrible thing.  The Show audience has a much clearer idea of Aes Sedai, Warders, The Bond and it all points to foreshadowing Moiraine and Lans journey.

 

At the very least all of the nonbook readers I have talked to or watched their reactions on youtube absolutely loved those episodes and became very attached to Stepin.  More than a few tears were shed.

[DojoToad]

52 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

 

 

Fleshing out the minor characters to explore major lore dumps is not a terrible thing.  The Show audience has a much clearer idea of Aes Sedai, Warders, The Bond and it all points to foreshadowing Moiraine and Lans journey.

 

At the very least all of the nonbook readers I have talked to or watched their reactions on youtube absolutely loved those episodes and became very attached to Stepin.  More than a few tears were shed.

Lore dump through the major characters. Now they are attached to a character that won’t return. I didn’t need Stepin to understand the significance of the bond in the books. A couple sentences here and there were more than sufficient. No one had to die to get it across.

 

Yes, TV is a different medium but good writing still could have expressed the gravity of the bond without wasting time and then fridging a minor character. 

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

Yes, TV is a different medium but good writing still could have expressed the gravity of the bond without wasting time and then fridging a minor character. 

 

I don't think it would have, people need to see the grief, need to see that even though he had the option of joining Alanna he preferred to end his own life.

 

No simple line of dialogue is going to convey that as strongly.

 

But agree to disagree

[Andra]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

Interestingly she might still have been head of the Ajah.  At the very least a sitter as one of the Green's positions is absent in episode 6.

Yes, in New Spring (where we hear of her and her Warders) she heads the Green Ajah.  I don't believe we hear that she is also a Sitter.  Which would make sense, since it would be unlikely for a Sitter to be chosen to leave the Tower on a dangerous, lengthy, open-ended mission by the Amyrlin.

 

In the show, she is both Captain General and Sitter - hence the single vacant seat when we first see the Hall convene.  It wouldn't be out of the ordinary at all for a Sitter to maintain her position for the 20 years between the events.

[Nik]

14 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Right, I should have been more careful in my placement of his name.  I was thinking more of the terminator darkfriend that Mat and Rand encountered.

 

I'm not sure I understand your statement here. You didn't like the darkfriend in episode 3? She was a prime example of combining several characters to give us one more fleshed-out character rather than multiple surface-level ones.

 

As for Stepin, his storyline was a bit jarring on first watch but I appreciated it more on rewatch and after seeing reactions by non readers. And I'm sure that we'll see a lot more of the other characters involved in that storyline (Alanna and her two warders, mostly, in addition to obviously Lan and Moiraine). So this was buildup for them too.

[Nik]

Again, none of this indicates to me that we won't still get the major events from the books. Season 1 hit the important beats it needed to hit from a big picture point of view and I expect that to continue.

[Mailman]

4 hours ago, Nik said:

Again, none of this indicates to me that we won't still get the major events from the books. Season 1 hit the important beats it needed to hit from a big picture point of view and I expect that to continue.

Apart from only getting a paper thin depth to the main characters and a even shallower amount of world building.

[DojoToad]

15 hours ago, Nik said:

 

I'm not sure I understand your statement here. You didn't like the darkfriend in episode 3? She was a prime example of combining several characters to give us one more fleshed-out character rather than multiple surface-level ones.

We already had Howal Gode from the book that was easily as fleshed out as the TV darkfriend.  We had the stout door and the locked room.  The show made changes for change's sake.  Did not improve anything.

 

15 hours ago, Nik said:

As for Stepin, his storyline was a bit jarring on first watch but I appreciated it more on rewatch and after seeing reactions by non readers. And I'm sure that we'll see a lot more of the other characters involved in that storyline (Alanna and her two warders, mostly, in addition to obviously Lan and Moiraine). So this was buildup for them too.

If you have to rewatch to like it, or like it because other people enjoy it, it was not done well.  Plus the book was able to get the same message across without taking 20% of the 'stage' time.

Edited August 13, 2022 by DojoToad

[Nik]

26 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

We already had Howal Gode from the book that was easily as fleshed out as the TV darkfriend.  We had the stout door and the locked room.  The show made changes for change's sake.  Did not improve anything.

 

If you have to rewatch to like it, or like it because other people enjoy it, it was not done well.  Plus the book was able to get the same message across without taking 20% of the 'stage' time.

 

The darkfriend in the show wasn't just replacing Gode. She was also standing in for Milli Skane, Paitr, and all the little towns they stayed in along the way. She was a combination of several things. I thought they did a really good job of making her likeable so even book readers were shocked when she turned out to be a darkfriend.

 

As for "it wasn't done well" that's your opinion, sure. But needing a rewatch to appreciate something isn't necessarily anything to do with quality. In my case, the first watch was rougher because I was coming to it with book expectations and finding some of the changes jarring. Once I knew what the changes were, I was able to enjoy it without being taken out of my immersion by "wait this is different". It's all about expectations.

 

I'm not saying you have to like it, but I'm providing a different perspective in the hopes of indicating that some people did enjoy it and it wasn't objectively bad, but rather a matter of preference and opinion.

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Nik said:

 

The darkfriend in the show wasn't just replacing Gode. She was also standing in for Milli Skane, Paitr, and all the little towns they stayed in along the way. She was a combination of several things. I thought they did a really good job of making her likeable so even book readers were shocked when she turned out to be a darkfriend.

 

As for "it wasn't done well" that's your opinion, sure. But needing a rewatch to appreciate something isn't necessarily anything to do with quality. In my case, the first watch was rougher because I was coming to it with book expectations and finding some of the changes jarring. Once I knew what the changes were, I was able to enjoy it without being taken out of my immersion by "wait this is different". It's all about expectations.

 

I'm not saying you have to like it, but I'm providing a different perspective in the hopes of indicating that some people did enjoy it and it wasn't objectively bad, but rather a matter of preference and opinion.

I absolutely agree that these are just my opinions.  I too had to get over expectation shock.  There were several unexpected show changes that I liked and I thought improved on the books.

 

Gode was the creepiest of the early dark friends for me.  Rand and Mat being trapped in that room by two shoulder thumpers and Howal.  I felt helpless for them.  I did not get the same feeling with Rand being trapped by terminator darkfriend.  Milli and Paiter were unexpected but didn't have the same 'scare' factor that Howal had for me.

 

Changes are fine if they improve what's already available - for me that included the carnal relationship between Rand and Egwene, bringing Logain's storyline forward and making him more prominent, making Mat's family less reputable (by a lot).

 

Terminator darkfriend (made me laugh) and Stepin (WTF) were two changes that not only were not needed but were poorly executed.  Considering the time constraints on S1, Stepin especially, was a waste of time.

 

Just my thoughts.  I understand that others disagree.

[Nik]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I absolutely agree that these are just my opinions.  I too had to get over expectation shock.  There were several unexpected show changes that I liked and I thought improved on the books.

 

Gode was the creepiest of the early dark friends for me.  Rand and Mat being trapped in that room by two shoulder thumpers and Howal.  I felt helpless for them.  I did not get the same feeling with Rand being trapped by terminator darkfriend.  Milli and Paiter were unexpected but didn't have the same 'scare' factor that Howal had for me.

 

Changes are fine if they improve what's already available - for me that included the carnal relationship between Rand and Egwene, bringing Logain's storyline forward and making him more prominent, making Mat's family less reputable (by a lot).

 

Terminator darkfriend (made me laugh) and Stepin (WTF) were two changes that not only were not needed but were poorly executed.  Considering the time constraints on S1, Stepin especially, was a waste of time.

 

Just my thoughts.  I understand that others disagree.

 

I enjoy reading your thoughts, and I appreciate when you phrase them as "I didn't like X" or "X didn't work for me" rather than "X was badly done". Exchanging opinions is fun, being told your opinion is objectively wrong isn't 🙂

[expat]

Quote

Lore dump through the major characters. Now they are attached to a character that won’t return. I didn’t need Stepin to understand the significance of the bond in the books. A couple sentences here and there were more than sufficient. No one had to die to get it across.

I am always taken aback by the simplistic criticism of the Stepin arc.  The Stepin arc was a complicated set of scenes trying to accomplish several things, explaining the warder bond was just one of them. It also developed Lan's character, introduces the question of what happens to the Aes Sedai when the warder dies, [although not explored in the books, the question of what a long-term, deadly symbiotic relationship between the warder and the Aes Sedai does to the personality, mental state, and actions of both parties], and development of Aes Sedai society (both in the warder friendship scene in the previous episode and the actual Stepin arc).

 

While it's fair that someone didn't enjoy it or thought that the warder bond story wasn't important enough, the other things it was trying to do might have been enough to make it worthwhile anyway.  Did it fail on all layers?

 

Quote

Apart from only getting a paper thin depth to the main characters and a even shallower amount of world building.

And yet you pick apart one of the more substantial efforts at world building.  At least give it credit for trying to do world building (which you think is important and not done enough in the series), even if you didn't like the execution of the attempt.

 

Quote

If you have to rewatch to like it, or like it because other people enjoy it, it was not done well.  Plus the book was able to get the same message across without taking 20% of the 'stage' time.

It was maybe a quarter of one episode.  How was that taking 20% of stage time?  Yes, Stepin was in the previous episode, but was one of many characters in his scenes.

 

[expat]

Quote

We already had Howal Gode from the book that was easily as fleshed out as the TV darkfriend.  We had the stout door and the locked room.  The show made changes for change's sake.  Did not improve anything.

The scene with Howal Gode wouldn't have worked. 

First, introducing Thom and establishing him as a friend was an important part of the scene. They could have introduced Thom as the gleeman in the inn (just as they did in the show), so that works.  As written in the book however, there was no good way for Thom to help them trapped in a remote storage room. 

 

Second, Rand's use of the one power with Gode (lighting though a stone wall) to escape was too overt.  They needed a subtle use to show later when Rand realizes he is the Dragon, but nothing that screamed one power.

 

As in the series, they could have escaped on their own and then have Thom save them from the henchmen later.  But this is already rewriting the book to get close to what the series showed.  Does it make more sense to bastardize an existing character or just create an amalgamation of several?

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, expat said:

 

Second, Rand's use of the one power with Gode (lighting though a stone wall) to escape was too overt.  They needed a subtle use to show later when Rand realizes he is the Dragon, but nothing that screamed one power.

 

As in the series, they could have escaped on their own and then have Thom save them from the henchmen later.  But this is already rewriting the book to get close to what the series showed.  Does it make more sense to bastardize an existing character or just create an amalgamation of several?

Subtle?  So the dark friend mentioning that 10 (?) men couldn’t break the door down, and then Rand doing it by himself is subtle?

[DojoToad]

19 hours ago, expat said:

I am always taken aback by the simplistic criticism of the Stepin arc.  The Stepin arc was a complicated set of scenes trying to accomplish several things, explaining the warder bond was just one of them. It also developed Lan's character, introduces the question of what happens to the Aes Sedai when the warder dies, [although not explored in the books, the question of what a long-term, deadly symbiotic relationship between the warder and the Aes Sedai does to the personality, mental state, and actions of both parties], and development of Aes Sedai society (both in the warder friendship scene in the previous episode and the actual Stepin arc).

 

Some of us are simpler than others…. Sorry to take you aback. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by DojoToad