Taim being Be'lal

[Graendals favourite]

Hey, I just thought of this, and thought it could be conversed. (Great tv show too, though I cringe at any change, marvel at the visuals)

 

I still think Taim as of LoC is Be'lal brought back, so that same as for Osan'gar and Aran'gar, Taim was captured, and Be'lal's soul or mind was put into his body.

 

I must now then preface this with my understanding, and counter the more usual arguments, and give a little more than last time 5 or 6 or 7 years ago.

 

To begin, I think Mazrim Taim was as a certain powerful male channeller captured from Aes Sedai who were carrying him toward Tar Valon, and taken against his will again to Shayol Ghul, where he was implanted with no other than Be'lal's soul. He was there set off to Rand to pose as Taim. He has Taim's memories, though some of Be'lal's as well. Some may say "balefire" at this point, I will address that, but let me continue lest the telling become disjointed.

 

There had been a Taimandred theory, that Taim be Demandred in disguise, but I cannot see that as of LoC. Demndred is too arrogant, and taller too. Not much is known about Be'lal, except the named Envious and Netwiever. He had also resented others being above him. I think Rahvin was right that should Demandred ever have seen Rand, he would have tried to kill him, no that was Lanfear who claimed that. No matter. It is certain that in LoC Taim displays Forsaken degree of knowledge: he was not suprised at the weave for Travelling, was surprised at Rand not know how to test whether other males could channel (How would a false dragon actually come across that knowledge), and said things like "those so-called Aiel" which generally thirdagers don't know.

 

Where was I. Yes, Be'lal's soul was for the Dark One to use, since Moiraine used, to her maximum capacity, what was described as a "thin bar of light." This is in contrast to how Rahvin was killed. Thinking of the mechanics of it, it must matter how far back from death one dies, that the Dark One can snatch the soul. One hour must be different than a few seconds as in Mat's case in Shadow Rising, and Moiraine's balefire against Be'lal sounded the same as the description of how Rand saved Mat.

 

I must address some obvious counterarguments. Let me do so elegantly, that is swiftly. Be'lal was a swordmaster, so he sneered at the beginners attempts at this craft or artform, also this wounded Andoran who thought to teach it. In the last book Demandred quite puts down Taim, but rather the Envious got the same trearment from Demandred also during the War of the Shadow, both were initially for the light. What else is there. I can't remember, so I'll go into the last paragraph.

 

Bashere had not obviously met Taim, else why ask are you he, and he answered "I shaved." But obviously Taim had heard much about him. Obviously the character is completely different. If, guessing, Mazrim Taim had been a sort of roughish character, this suave diplomat in his form would not fit him at all. Thinking how arrogant Lews Therin must have been, and thinking him as Be'lal, I can literally hear his teeth grinding when Rand starts to want to put a medal on his chest --I did all this and here he flounces in and takes all the credit and then tells me how cute a puppy I am. Of course doesn't excuse turning to the shadow, and not every Light general did, only Demandred, Sammael and Be'lal, but I can understand the resentment.

 

Did I say everything, well that was long enough, discuss if you please, Light willing!

[Graendals favourite]

Sorry for commenting on my own post, but only Be'lal is available, and he fits well. I quickly stated that before I forgot it.

 

Around this time Aginor, Balthamel, and Ishamael too are reinstated. The prohibition of balefire really comes if it goes back far enough. Surely 10 seconds does not matter to the Dark One.

 

So, charecterisation fits Be'lal, not that I have any particular affinity to him. Do I know more, say when he counsels Rand on Sammael, he simply knows too much to be of this age.

[Graendals favourite]

By the way, this be a tidbit that came to mind but because of mentioning that Sammael thing:

Sammael was very certain that Rand would fall, and because he was certain Graendal fell for it too. In the Path of Daggers Narishma said, was it Narishma, anyway the Asha'man Rand sent for Callandor said the traps "weren't as you said." Obviously the traps in the Stone of Tear for the great cache and particularly Callandor were so that even the Forsaken did not dare to try to get past.

 

This, or that, does not say, Sammael couldn't alter the trap. So someone, say Narishma (it was some other asha'man) managed to think through the difference. Anyway, Sammael though Rand would go after him, go grab Callandor and....  be caught in that modified trap. Rand was just ass enough not to pay attention when he heard.

 

A credible plan by Sammael, he didn't expect someone to go get Callandor for him, who would sort of think before he opened the lock with the wrong key. Sammael expected Rand to die getting Callandor, Graendal thought Sammael had found a key to Rand, and Rand ... lucked out.

[Graendals favourite]

Sammael could kill Rand save in self-defence per the Dark Lords order presumably, but he could lay a trap on him. Like Graendal wanted Sammael to kill Rand, Sammael wanted Rand to kill himself trying to get Callandor. That Rand was afraid of using Callandor, Sammael did not know, it would have been something he would have tried to prepare against.

 

Anyway this is off-field from Be'lal, who sure would have wanted Rand get rid of Sammael -- Be'lal and Sammael were not friends, nor were any Forsaken to each other.

[Graendals favourite]

Then Rand used Callandor on the Seanchan offensive or defensive, but had an Asha'man get it for him.

[Asthereal]

Be'lal got hit by Moiraine's balefire at the end of book 3. Shouldn't be able to come back from that.

 

For me, Taim is the antithesis of Logain. Logain is kind of a backup Dragon and Taim seems to be a sort of backup Ishamael, should all the Forsaken fail and the Shadow have need for new leadership on the ground.

[JyP]

3 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Be'lal got hit by Moiraine's balefire at the end of book 3. Shouldn't be able to come back from that.

 

For me, Taim is the antithesis of Logain. Logain is kind of a backup Dragon and Taim seems to be a sort of backup Ishamael, should all the Forsaken fail and the Shadow have need for new leadership on the ground.

Another explication for remarks about "so-called Aiels" and knowledge on Taim's part could be that he was a Darkfriend for a long time and coached personnally by a Chosen - by Ishamael maybe ?

[JyP]

11 hours ago, Graendals favourite said:

 Be'lal was a swordmaster, so he sneered at the beginners attempts at this craft or artform, also this wounded Andoran who thought to teach it.

I think it would contradict some other discourse where Be'lal says to Rand to remember whenever they tried a tame sport (swords) during the Age of Legends and recreated forms to kill with swords again.

 

So I would say Third Age swordmasters should be way above Age of Legends practicionners, experience wise : they can build on generations of swordmasters, while it was a "new" skill during the War of Power. Well, maybe Be'lal had some centuries to practice nonetheless.

 

So sneering at sword training would match much more a third age male drunk with the Power than Be'lal.

Edited January 26, 2022 by JyP

[Asthereal]

On 1/26/2022 at 1:48 PM, JyP said:

Another explication for remarks about "so-called Aiels" and knowledge on Taim's part could be that he was a Darkfriend for a long time and coached personnally by a Chosen - by Ishamael maybe ?

He probably was. Dashiva turned out to be Aginor/Osan'gar in disguise, hiding in the black tower, and had ample opportunity to reveal himself to Taim, or teach him things he "discovered". Also I remember reading somewhere quite early on (book 9/10ish, if I recall correctly) that one of the Chosen had been conversing with Taim. Either Moridin or Demandred probably.

 

EDIT: Your point about Be'lal being an expert swordsman and not likely to scold the skill of swordfighting is a good reason why Taim can't be Be'lal. Apart from the balefire thing.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Asthereal

[Andra]

I have no problem with Taim having long been a darkfriend, and having been to Shayol Ghul or learned from one or more Forsaken.  No need for that to have even been against his will.  After all, those comments about "so-called" Aes Sedai and Aeil were a big part of the Taimandred idea to begin with.

 

But I don't think he can be Be'lal.

None of the other examples we know about where Forsaken were resurrected into an existing body show the new entity retaining any of the body's memories.  And we know for certain that Taim still has Taim's memories.

It's possible that they do retain their memories and the books just never mentioned it, but there's no reason to insert that belief into what we do know.

There's also always a certain amount of time that passes before any such transfer takes place, and I think that it hasn't been long enough between Be'lal's death and Taim's reappearance.

 

But also, I think you dismiss the effects of Balefire too glibly.

Yes, those effects vary according to how powerful the Balefire blast was.  But even the tiniest beam burns the thread from the Pattern completely.  Rand used the smallest amount he could to kill the Darkhounds in Rhuidean, but they were still completely gone, and what they had done was partially reversed.  It doesn't sound like it's even possible to dial it back enough that it only kills, without everything else.

In addition, we have the word of people who know its effects better than anyone that a soul killed with Balefire is no longer a candidate for resurrection.  Both from other Forsaken, and from the Dark One himself.

[Spiritweaver1]

I am not quite finished with my reread inspired by the show and there is material ahead of me.  However as I recall Taim is a dread lord recruit.  It has always been my impression that he was a dark friend from before the founding of the Tower which is why he always sent Lews Therin into a frenzy even from the beginning.  I have considered the Taimendred theory carefully as it makes sense.  However Damandred is busy consolidating his empire and only infrequently shows up at the various Forsaken club meetings.  He doesn't have time to run the Black Tower.  The BT plot is clearly part of the plot by Ishy to paint Rand black with chaos and destruction.  Demandred's plan is to kill the Dragon personally.  Andra addresses the balefire issue well above so I won't address it except to support Andra.  Erased from the pattern is erased whether for a microsecond or 1 year. 

[Graendals favourite]

I don't believe balefire burns or erases a soul from the pattern, it simply burns it back in time. Andra, I like your thinking, but no one has said someone burnt a little way can't be resurrected. All we have is the Dark One's apparent frustration of not being able to bring Rahvin back.

[Graendals favourite]

Jyp, if you are a black belt yudo expert watching others learn to wrestle(and a bad person), might you not sneer.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Graendals favourite

[Andra]

On 2/1/2022 at 8:35 PM, Graendals favourite said:

I don't believe balefire burns or erases a soul from the pattern, it simply burns it back in time. Andra, I like your thinking, but no one has said someone burnt a little way can't be resurrected. All we have is the Dark One's apparent frustration of not being able to bring Rahvin back.

The Dark One is the Lord of the Grave.

If he's not able to bring someone back, it's because they can't be brought back.

 

It's clear, from multiple references within the books, that a soul that is killed with Balefire can't be resurrected.

[Terry05]

37 minutes ago, Andra said:

The Dark One is the Lord of the Grave.

If he's not able to bring someone back, it's because they can't be brought back.

 

It's clear, from multiple references within the books, that a soul that is killed with Balefire can't be resurrected.

This 100%

[Graendals favourite]

Ok, well if you say so, I acquiesce. I secretly still believe I am right, but I won't argue it further. Hopefully the thinking of it has been entertaining, useful or edifying! (I was nice to talk since long time.)

[Andra]

12 hours ago, Graendals favourite said:

Ok, well if you say so, I acquiesce. I secretly still believe I am right, but I won't argue it further. Hopefully the thinking of it has been entertaining, useful or edifying! (I was nice to talk since long time.)

 

Not a thing wrong with speculating about things.

In fact, I have personally speculated that the hints about Taimandred were so obvious that it must have been Jordan's original plan.  I think the only reason he changed it is because it would have meant more than one of the Forsaken was free before the first Seal was broken.

 

And no need to account for the effects of Balefire at all. ?

[muddasssir]

On 1/26/2022 at 5:48 PM, JyP said:

Another explication for remarks about "so-called Aiels" and knowledge on Taim's part could be that he was a Darkfriend for a long time and coached personnally by a Chosen - by Ishamael maybe ?

He was trained by demandred it was mentioned in t Mol

 

[KakitaOCU]

If you're looking for official word, Robert Jordans notes confirm that Taim was Demandred in disguise until sometime between books 8 and 9.

There are specific notes to Demandred being Taim, Demandred being in Caemlyn and killing Asmodean, etc.

Then for whatever reason (There's a few theories)  RJ changed his mind, confirming Demandred as a separate person when he failed to recognize Damer Flynn at the Cleansing.

AMoL then confirms that Taim was a modern day DF trained by Demadnred.

[Andra]

On 2/6/2022 at 1:06 AM, KakitaOCU said:

If you're looking for official word, Robert Jordans notes confirm that Taim was Demandred in disguise until sometime between books 8 and 9.

There are specific notes to Demandred being Taim, Demandred being in Caemlyn and killing Asmodean, etc.
 

 

Interesting.

Because in Demandred's POV statements (which are canonically always considered the truth) in I think Lord of Chaos, he doesn't know Asmodean's fate.  Also, he hadn't been introduced yet at the time of the killing, and Jordan always said it was "intuitively obvious" who did it.  Based only on material already published by that time (book 5 or earlier).

 

I could certainly see him originally intending Demandred to have been the culprit.  But that intent almost has to have changed before book 6.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Andra

[Asthereal]

On 2/6/2022 at 9:06 AM, KakitaOCU said:

There are specific notes to Demandred being Taim, Demandred being in Caemlyn and killing Asmodean, etc.

Actually, the team found a printout of a fan theory about who killed Asmodean, with a note from Jordan simply saying "this is correct". They chose to add it to the glossary for Towers of Midnight, so we as readers would experience the revelation in the same way Sanderson and the team did.

And spoiler alert: it wasn't Demandred. ? 

[KakitaOCU]

6 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Actually, the team found a printout of a fan theory about who killed Asmodean, with a note from Jordan simply saying "this is correct". They chose to add it to the glossary for Towers of Midnight, so we as readers would experience the revelation in the same way Sanderson and the team did.

And spoiler alert: it wasn't Demandred. ? 

It was changed to Graendal, I'm speaking to the original plan.  Let me see if I can find the article on it.

http://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767

Relevent RJ notes revealed in the article are:

"Demandred: Hated/feared/despised Lews Therin. Like Lanfear, he plays for larger stakes than most of the others, who are trying to stake out wordly kingdoms. HE WILL SHOW UP CLAIMING TO BE MAZRIM TAIM. TAKING ADVANTAGE OF RAND'S AMNESTY.|

"She does not know that Asmodean was a prisoner of Rand, nor, of course, that he was killed by Demandred."

The she in that section is Moghedien

Now why RJ changed his mind?  Don't know, there's theories but none verified and it's not really important because the change is what is canon.  I brought it up more to address that RJ had never considered Belial as Taim.  (Not a bad theory or anything, just sharing relevant info)

Edited February 8, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[Asthereal]

4 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

It was changed to Graendal, I'm speaking to the original plan.  Let me see if I can find the article on it.
http://www.theoryland.com/forums/discussion/8767

 

I brought it up more to address that RJ had never considered Belial as Taim.  (Not a bad theory or anything, just sharing relevant info)

Neat. I did not know about that original plan. I just follow Brandon on YouTube religiously. Especially his longer stuff is a pleasure to put on when you come home from a long day.

 

For Demandred posing as Taim: to be fair any of the chosen could do that using weaves of illusion. I would not be the least bit surprised to find that more than one of them posed as Taim at some point or another.