Memory of Light ending

[EmreY]

Perpetual optimist that I am, I've been thinking through to the very end of the series.  Three things in particular:

 

First

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The Rand<->Moridin switch.  Not my favourite moment in the books, will it appear as a cop-out in the TV series?  And how would you film it?

 

Second

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Rand-as-Moridin.  Jarring?  Though I think this could be easily overcome.

 

Third

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Do we want an epilogue, or is a short talk with, say, Min enough, plus pipe?

 

How would you do them?  Any thoughts?

[WhiteVeils]

If they do do as similar as possible to the books, I'd probably repeat the beat with Moiraine..."Tell them that I died." but this time be a little better at it.

[VooDooNut]

  On 1/25/2022 at 10:01 PM, WhiteVeils said:

If they do do as similar as possible to the books, I'd probably repeat the beat with Moiraine..."Tell them that I died." but this time be a little better at it.

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Bingo. That would be such a great callback from season 8 finale to season 1 finale. Rand walks off into the sunset. Elsewhere, everyone turns to Moiraine questioningly..."The Dragon is dead. May he rest in peace." Or whatever she says. It wouldn't be a lie, either, if Rand's ta'veren nature, his "dragon-ness" really did die. She just has to believe Rand's role as the Dragon has ended.

[Skipp]

  On 1/25/2022 at 10:01 PM, WhiteVeils said:

If they do do as similar as possible to the books, I'd probably repeat the beat with Moiraine..."Tell them that I died." but this time be a little better at it.

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I kinda agree, I honestly don't know how these points of the ending would go over with a wider audience.

 

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I personally assume the show is going to limit the body swapping as much as possible.  In the books we have Aggy, Bathy, Lanfear, Grendal, Ishy and Rand all body swap at some point.  We are assuming that they are cutting down on the Forsaken so that could theoretically cut down on some right there. 

 

By not body swapping Lanfear will allow the audience to assume Moiraine is still alive.  Assuming they go with the same story for Moraine.

 

I honestly don't know what the best is the way to handle any of this.

 

[Jaysen Gore]

The thing for me with the ending is that the body switch is a freeing thing for Rand; if they show follows any of the plot points for Rand's journey - not saying they will - then the body switch is what allows him to regain his anonymity.  the pictures from Falme ,the twice and twice marks, the loss of the hand, the seen by every noble in the land from Malkier to Arad Doman. Any one of those enough is a reason to switch him

 

Then have the line of dialogue between the actor who plays Ishamael and Moiraine saying tell them I died. There's going to have to be a verbal confirmation scene anyway, since the only other proof is in people's heads, and it does make a good book end.

 

Other than that, film it almost as it is in the books. the only thing I'd add is a brief scene with Tam and nu-Rand.  for all the debates around "Rand would  never abandon his babies" talk, I can see why he would, for a little while. But I can't see him letting Tam think he's dead for anytime at all. 

[WhiteVeils]

They could do it with a shape change rather than a body swap. That would be easier to absorb for the audience I think.

 

I just want to have something...a single line, anything...to say Mat is going to go conquer the Seanchen and free the domane with Tuon at the end.

 

And maybe get a hug from his sisters.

Edited January 25, 2022 by WhiteVeils

[VooDooNut]

  On 1/25/2022 at 10:12 PM, Skipp said:

I kinda agree, I honestly don't know how these points of the ending would go over with a wider audience.

 

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I personally assume the show is going to limit the body swapping as much as possible.  In the books we have Aggy, Bathy, Lanfear, Grendal, Ishy and Rand all body swap at some point.  We are assuming that they are cutting down on the Forsaken so that could theoretically cut down on some right there. 

 

By not body swapping Lanfear will allow the audience to assume Moiraine is still alive.  Assuming they go with the same story for Moraine.

 

I honestly don't know what the best is the way to handle any of this.

 

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Insert my crazy theory here.... I wonder if pre-Barney's departure, this would have been the direction the show was going in (limiting body switching), but if they will instead make a big show of body switching going forward, since they have to justify a new actor for Mat's role and can't get around showing that on screen.

Edited January 25, 2022 by VooDooNut
typo

[WhiteVeils]

We'll see. I don't think the actors look different enough to require. Not when an on-screen shave will do.

[VooDooNut]

  On 1/25/2022 at 10:51 PM, WhiteVeils said:

We'll see. I don't think the actors look different enough to require. Not when an on-screen shave will do.

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We certainly will! Like I've said elsewhere, this is definitely one of the things I'm most excited to see with season 2.

[SingleMort]

  On 1/25/2022 at 5:33 PM, EmreY said:

Perpetual optimist that I am, I've been thinking through to the very end of the series.  Three things in particular:

 

First

  Reveal hidden contents

The Rand<->Moridin switch.  Not my favourite moment in the books, will it appear as a cop-out in the TV series?  And how would you film it?

 

Second

  Reveal hidden contents

Rand-as-Moridin.  Jarring?  Though I think this could be easily overcome.

 

Third

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Do we want an epilogue, or is a short talk with, say, Min enough, plus pipe?

 

How would you do them?  Any thoughts?

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First

 

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Okay sorry if I cause any offense with this one totally don't mean to. But honestly if I was making the show I'd just have Rand die and not do the switch. Not because I don't like Rand (completely the oppisite in fact) and not because I think he deserves to. But I think Rand's story was over, he achieved everything he set out to. I also think the whole funeral is undercut if Rand isn't actually dead. The idea of him just going off to live happily ever after in secret just didn't feel right to me. I could go on at length about why but that's more of a book discussion

 

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I think it would be jarring and assuming they did go with the switch I'm not sure it would work on screen. I mean we've spent the whole series (unless there's any more recasting) with one actor playing Rand. Now suddenly at the end in the last few scenes he is played by someone who we've seen as the villain for most of the season. Just not sure that would work visually. 

 

Third

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I would have an epilogue of the Dragon being reborn into a new Age bring the focus back into the cyclical nature of the world and the enternal struggle of good vs evil

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by SingleMort

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 1/26/2022 at 1:44 AM, SingleMort said:

First

 

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Okay sorry if I cause any offense with this one totally don't mean to. But honestly if I was making the show I'd just have Rand die and not do the switch. Not because I don't like Rand (completely the oppisite in fact) and not because I think he deserves to. But I think Rand's story was over, he achieved everything he set out to. I also think the whole funeral is undercut if Rand isn't actually dead. The idea of him just going off to live happily ever after in secret just didn't feel right to me. I could go on at length about why but that's more of a book discussion

 

Second

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I think it would be jarring and assuming they did go with the switch I'm not sure it would work on screen. I mean we've spent the whole series (unless there's any more recasting) with one actor playing Rand. Now suddenly at the end in the last few scenes he is played by someone who we've seen as the villain for most of the season. Just not sure that would work visually. 

 

Third

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I would have an epilogue of the Dragon being reborn into a new Age bring the focus back into the cyclical nature of the world and the enternal struggle of good vs evil

 

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Him dying would undercut Egwene's sacrifice, and it's all about the women ?. And no, I would not support this change. Too many people want this to be another grimdark series, and it's not

 

[SingleMort]

  On 1/26/2022 at 2:48 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

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Him dying would undercut Egwene's sacrifice, and it's all about the women ?. And no, I would not support this change. Too many people want this to be another grimdark series, and it's not

 

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Respectfully I don't see what Rand dying has to do with Egwene at all? A lot of people died including Siuan, Gareth, Gawyn. If their deaths didn't effect Egwene's actions I fail to see why one more would? Likewise not sure how Rand dying suddenly makes the whole story grimdark. Again like I said a lot of people die at the end. Did we reach the death quota for grimdark in the final battle and one final death will push the story over the edge? I never saw Egwene or any other character who died as having the monopoly on sacrifice. I don't even think Rand or even Egwene's death would be an entirely tragic event because their victory was glorious and their memory will live on for centuries just like the Heroes of Legend. Not only that but we know with the way the world of WoT works they will be reborn into a new Age to live again.  

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by SingleMort

[Spiritweaver1]

Before I answer this question I want to ask one.  Do we think that we are going to get a body transfer from Ishamael to Moridin?  I think the answer to the original question relates to that one.  RJ does a lot of body switching with the Forsaken.  From my perspective I am thinking the answer to this question is no.  The show team has so far taken the easy route and it seems unlikely that they will resurrect the dead.  They have already done that too much. 

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 1/26/2022 at 3:03 AM, SingleMort said:

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Respectfully I don't see what Rand dying has to do with Egwene at all? A lot of people died including Siuan, Gareth, Gawyn. If their deaths didn't effect Egwene's actions I fail to see why one more would? Likewise not sure how Rand dying suddenly makes the whole story grimdark. Again like I said a lot of people die at the end. Did we reach the death quota for grimdark in the final battle and one final death will push the story over the edge? I never saw Egwene or any other character who died as having the monopoly on sacrifice. I don't even think Rand or even Egwene's death would be an entirely tragic event because their victory was glorious and their memory will live on for centuries just like the Heroes of Legend. Not only that but we know with the way the world of WoT works they will be reborn into a new Age to live again.  

 

 

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Egwene - it doesn't affect her actions, but it reduces the impact of her sacrifice as the only member of the EF5 to die. The whole point of Rand's List is for him to accept Women dying heroically . If he dies right after accepting that, all that growth is wasted. I was also being sarcastic because of all the feedback that the show is all about the Wimminz, and Rand doesn't matter. So of course Egwene needs to be the most sacrificial and the most glorious. all by herself.

 

And for Grimdark - Killing your main character after 8 seasons, not fulfilling all the prophecies about him, and thereby breaking the internal consistency of your universe would be grim. Think about how people reacted to Danerys, and you get some idea of how I think Rand's death would play. It would also of course, piss all over the book fans one final time at the very end of the series.  Which I'm sure would be a wonderful legacy. 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 1/26/2022 at 3:04 AM, Spiritweaver1 said:

Before I answer this question I want to ask one.  Do we think that we are going to get a body transfer from Ishamael to Moridin?  I think the answer to the original question relates to that one.  RJ does a lot of body switching with the Forsaken.  From my perspective I am thinking the answer to this question is no.  The show team has so far taken the easy route and it seems unlikely that they will resurrect the dead.  They have already done that too much. 

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I'm thinking no; I'm thinking we get no body switches except the last one, and if they don't beat the crap out of Rand, we may not get that one. I'm not even sure we get Selene as two separate actresses, or even as much of the Mask of Mirrors as we get in the books. 

[DaddyFinn]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:44 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

and if they don't beat the crap out of Rand, we may not get that one

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They better put him through all the awful stuff and not hold back. I will riot otherwise.

[VooDooNut]

  On 1/26/2022 at 6:12 AM, DaddyFinn said:

They better put him through all the awful stuff and not hold back. I will riot otherwise.

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"It gets the lashes on its skin and stuffed back in the box again."

--Silence Of The Rands

 

Episode 8 with the burn-out scenes left me no doubt we will see some gnarly stuff going forward. I think we'll see the darkest moments the series has to offer. I think they will be deeply disturbing. Hopefully not so disturbing I can't watch though.

[SingleMort]

  On 1/26/2022 at 4:41 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

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Egwene - it doesn't affect her actions, but it reduces the impact of her sacrifice as the only member of the EF5 to die. The whole point of Rand's List is for him to accept Women dying heroically . If he dies right after accepting that, all that growth is wasted. I was also being sarcastic because of all the feedback that the show is all about the Wimminz, and Rand doesn't matter. So of course Egwene needs to be the most sacrificial and the most glorious. all by herself.

 

And for Grimdark - Killing your main character after 8 seasons, not fulfilling all the prophecies about him, and thereby breaking the internal consistency of your universe would be grim. Think about how people reacted to Danerys, and you get some idea of how I think Rand's death would play. It would also of course, piss all over the book fans one final time at the very end of the series.  Which I'm sure would be a wonderful legacy. 

 

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I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree on the nature Of Egwene's death. I never saw it as Rand allowing her to die IMO the choice was always hers. I also don't see much growth from Rand between Egwene dying and his body switch. I also never saw the character deaths in the books as a game of one upmanship for who can be the biggest sacrifice. To me this is like arguing that Tony Stark shouldn't have died in the end of Endgame because it steals Black Widow's sacrifice thunder. I didn't think it was true in the MCU I don't think it would be true if Rand died in WoT.

 

As for Grimdark - which prophecies are you saying are unfufilled? I just looked through the Karaethon Cycle to try to find what you are alluding to and nothing is jumping out at me.

 

Side note: As for the GoT references I think you are misunderstanding the grienvances the most people had with the show. It didn't have anything to do with prophecies, and I'm not going to be drawn into a disucssion about that on this thread. 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 1/27/2022 at 1:51 AM, SingleMort said:

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I guess this is where we fundamentally disagree on the nature Of Egwene's death. I never saw it as Rand allowing her to die IMO the choice was always hers. I also don't see much growth from Rand between Egwene dying and his body switch. I also never saw the character deaths in the books as a game of one upmanship for who can be the biggest sacrifice. To me this is like arguing that Tony Stark shouldn't have died in the end of Endgame because it steals Black Widow's sacrifice thunder. I didn't think it was true in the MCU I don't think it would be true if Rand died in WoT.

 

As for Grimdark - which prophecies are you saying are unfufilled? I just looked through the Karaethon Cycle to try to find what you are alluding to and nothing is jumping out at me.

 

Side note: As for the GoT references I think you are misunderstanding the grienvances the most people had with the show. It didn't have anything to do with prophecies, and I'm not going to be drawn into a disucssion about that on this thread. 

 

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it wasn't the Rand was allowing it, it was the fact that he had to accept that it was her - that it was all of their - choices and her right to do so. And I'm not saying the growth from it happened in the book; I'm saying it would have happened after the book, and him dying would kill that.  And it's not that it's one upmanship, it's that the women sacrificing their life to save a man (not a child) is still a radical concept.

 

It wasn't a KC prophecy, it was Min's vision of 3 women on a boat with Rand, dying, paralleling Arthur's funeral. Unless you argue that the fire was a metaphorical Viking funeral I guess.

 

[SingleMort]

  On 1/27/2022 at 2:17 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

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it wasn't the Rand was allowing it, it was the fact that he had to accept that it was her - that it was all of their - choices and her right to do so. And I'm not saying the growth from it happened in the book; I'm saying it would have happened after the book, and him dying would kill that.  And it's not that it's one upmanship, it's that the women sacrificing their life to save a man (not a child) is still a radical concept.

 

It wasn't a KC prophecy, it was Min's vision of 3 women on a boat with Rand, dying, paralleling Arthur's funeral. Unless you argue that the fire was a metaphorical Viking funeral I guess.

 

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Can't see anything about a boat. I see one about a pyre and one about him marrying but no boats. TBH I think both of those could be done posthumously if needed. It sounds like he's already dead in the first anyway and for second the there is precedent for posthumous marriage in certain cultures, particularly if it is considered necesary for his children to be legitimate. Though your entire argument here is also presupposing that these particular Min visions will be mentioned in the show. If they are not then this is redundant anyway. 

 

The problem if Rand survives is that he's not going to be able to abandon his friends and loved ones and by being a presence in their lives it makes the deception at the funeral pointless. It would only be a matter of time before people realised that Elayne, Aviendha and Min's new lover is Rand and it would only be a matter of time before some crisis or conflict happened where Rand would feel he would need to intervene as the Dragon. Rand would not be able to give up being the Dragon because he's ultimately a good person and there would always be more he could do. But by continuing to do he could ruin much of what he accomplished.   

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by SingleMort

[ashi]

  On 1/27/2022 at 2:49 AM, SingleMort said:

Can't see anything about a boat. I see one about a pyre and one about him marrying but no boats. TBH I think both of those could be done posthumously if needed.

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  Quote

Lord of Chaos, chapter 14

 

Foretelling, by Nicola:

 

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

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Also, from Jordan's notes (viewed by Terez, I think), one of Rand's questions to the Aelfinn (with answer) was:

 

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Jordan's notes:

 

Rand: "How can I fulfill the Prophecies of the Dragon and survive?"
Answer: "The west and the south must be as one; the north and the east must be as one. Two cannot be one; you must stand against the two as one. If you would live, you must die."

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Which is in Rand's thoughts in

 

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Lord of Chaos, chapter 26

 

[Rand] knew he had a chance to live, if a seemingly impossible one. If you would  live, you must die; that was one of three things he knew must be true, told to him  inside a ter’angreal where the answers were always true if apparently never easy to understand.

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Picked up again in

 

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Knife of Dreams, chapter 18

 

"One of my questions for the Aelfinn was 'How can I win the Last Battle?'"
  "A dangerous question to pose." [Cadsuane] said quietly, "touching on the Shadow as it does. Supposedly, the results can be quite unpleasant. What was the answer?"
  "'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one.'" He blew a smoke ring, put another in the middle of it as it expanded. That was not the whole of it. He had asked how to win and survive. The last part of his answer had been 'To live, you must die.'

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Edited January 27, 2022 by ashi

[SingleMort]

  On 1/27/2022 at 3:05 AM, ashi said:

 

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okay so it's a foretelling not a vision. I always thought those were more open to interpreation and more vague than Min's visions. I mean I can see there has been some discussion that this might not even refer to Rand. In any case it doesn't really seem like this is particularly important to the end of WoT, and I wouldn't lay high odds on Nicola even appearing in the show let alone this prophesy coming up. I meant if you are a showrunner what is the point of introducing a prophesy in season 3 or 4 that is never ever paid off? It's not even paid off if the series was a 1 to 1 recreation.  

 

[ashi]

  On 1/27/2022 at 3:22 AM, SingleMort said:

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okay so it's a foretelling not a vision. I always thought those were more open to interpreation and more vague than Min's visions. I mean I can see there has been some discussion that this might not even refer to Rand. In any case it doesn't really seem like this is particularly important to the end of WoT, and I wouldn't lay high odds on Nicola even appearing in the show let alone this prophesy coming up. I meant if you are a showrunner what is the point of introducing a prophesy in season 3 or 4 that is never ever paid off? It's not even paid off if the series was a 1 to 1 recreation.  

 

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Yes, sadly the role of prophecy will likely be (and already is) diminished. Sadly, because it added a lot of weight to the series, didn't it?

[SingleMort]

  On 1/27/2022 at 3:30 AM, ashi said:

Yes, sadly the role of prophecy will likely be (and already is) diminished. Sadly, because it added a lot of weight to the series, didn't it?

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I'd agree with that for Elaida's foretellings, Min's visions, KC and a few other things but can't say I've ever thought much about the Nicola thing. 

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 1/27/2022 at 3:30 AM, ashi said:

Yes, sadly the role of prophecy will likely be (and already is) diminished. Sadly, because it added a lot of weight to the series, didn't it?

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Thanks for finding the prophecy I meant; and while I know the show is dropping them left and right, I am kind of sympathetic to their situation.

 

Prophecy and foretelling does a lot to the world, but until they know exactly which ones they'll be able to include, and which ones have to be cut for production reasons, they have to be very careful about including them.  I point to how upset the book fans were over the poor execution over the one for Alivia, or the GoT blowback from Cersei's (which I actually figured out beforehand) to know a showrunner needs to be very careful including a prophecy if they're not sure they can deliver a proper pay off.

 

@SingleMort while I understand the objections you raise - I was lurking here for the post aMOL discussion, and "he wouldn't do that" was the most common complaint - I really don't think you're proposed solution is good, either.  Not only is it cutting of the nose to spite one's face, it's slitting one's own throat.

 

It's why, as I've said before, I'm going to be so interested to see what they do in the next 10 episodes on this topic. Between the KC, Min, and the Aelfinn / Elfinn, there's a helluva lot of prophecy that could happen, but I think it will be dependent on whether or not Amazon commits early to the whole series or not.