Why Graendal didn't kill Asmodean

[Leopoled Boothe]

You're being a little condescending here doncha think? I'm well aware of literary devices like foreshadowing. I grasped what you were saying the first time. I would appreciate being addressed as an adult and not your ten-year-old niece if it's not too much to ask.

 

Why I would never talk to my ten year old neice in this manner, she's smart. And I guess I missed the part where we are on familiar enough terms for you to know the I have a ten year old neice. Are you stalking me? Ok, now go ahead and disregard everthing above, I was only kidding, a joke, I don't mean a bit of it. I can see that you are indeed a very smart person and I don't even have a neice. But seriously, I think what you are interpreting as condescending remarks are merely my attempts to keep this thing lighthearted. I mean we're discussing whether or not one fictional character killed another fictional character. We're not discussing the Kenedy assination or debating whether or not the US should nuke North Korea. Dragonmount is a place we go during our leisure time, so I think that first and formost it should be fun. If you're not having fun then you're doing it wrong :D At any rate I never intended to be condesending. I'm sorry if it seemed that way.

 

As for the Sweetheart thing, it is not a pet name that I'm applying specifically to you. You are far from the first gal (online or in real life) that I have called sweetheart. Think of it in a Humphry Bogart sense, one of his catchpharases was calling women sweetheart. Of couse he did it in that cool drawl of his that I can never immitate properly, and this is why I take advantage of the internet where no one can hear me. Trust me, the Bogart accent you hear in your head is far better than any impression that I could do. Just ask anyone whose heard my Bogart impression, keep in mind they will answer eventually but you have to give them time to cringe first.

 

You brought it up again in your last post and then proceeded to justify it by saying that he's never rescinded the statement so it could still apply. I rejected it again.

 

I admitted that I was totally clueless about it being such an old quote. I then added the bit about RJ never resending the statment because, well it true. In your response you merely re-rejected the part that I'd already admitted to being mistaken about and did not address RJ's failure to rescend the statment. So you merely rejected again what I had alreay admitted you were right to reject in the first place. Do you have a reason for rejecting RJ's failure to recend the statement?

 

So why would I admit to being mistaken and still attempt to justify it? Because my motto is give ground when appropriate but never surrender. No no, never surrender, we could hardly have such an intersting, throught provoking and dare I say fun debate if I were to surrender so easisly. Wouldn't you agree?

 

Your original assumption that Slayer went into the tower was not groundless, though it was not the only possibility. Your further assumption that some nameless person or event caused him to go back so that he could be there when Lanfear arrived is groundless.

 

No no, not nameless. He does have a name, his name is Perrin. Slayer feels threatened by Perrin, Perrin whom he betrayed to the Trollocs, Perrin who wounded him, Perrin who would likely blow his cover, Perrin who for all Slayer knew as out hunting him with is Trolloc defeating army. Slayer had more that enough reason to feel threatened by Perrin.

 

The Graendal theory doesn't fall apart if you can't prove they chose to meet in Caemlyn. There have been other reasons proposed why Graendal may have gone to Caemlyn though obviously I find my version to be most likely.

 

I find your theory to be by far the most likely reason for Graendal to be in Caemlyn, if she was indeed there (and that is a big if). Let me reiderate that I have not by any means disregarded it as completely groundless. I am even willing to put that assumption on equal ground with my Slayer Done It" theory. (Now tell me, would a condecending person do such a thing?).

 

Why would they arrange to meet in some random unfamiliar place before heading to Illian?

 

Because as a rule the Forsaken distrust one another. If they were to meet in Camelyn this would require the Graendal spend time alone with Rhavin on territory that he controls. If I were in Graendal's shoes I would be very reluctant to do so. Moreover, unless I was the one who was going to be controling the circle I would insist that we all meet in Illian and then link without any mutual traveling. I would have to wonder if the gateway that the one in control opened actually lead to Illan and/or if there was a trap waiting for me on the other side. The one in control could open a gateway to just about anywhere and into just about any situation and once I'm linked they could probably force me through it. No concrete evidence here, I know, just a few possibilities.

 

At any rate Becks, you and I have ended up on the same thread several times. I generally enjoy your posts and I do consider you to be a friend (in as much as a person you've never met can be a friend, anyway). I'd like to keep thinking that way, and if that is going to happen I think we should go ahead and agree to disagree on this particualar point. Despite everthing I sincerly do hope that you have enjoyed this as much as I.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Well' date=' to be fair, no one can heal themself, and who is Ishamael likely to trust.

 

As for the prologue... that was an issue of madness, which we know healing isn't terribly effective on. The context doesnt really suggest much about the degree of Ishamael's ability.[/quote']

 

Not only that, but in the prologe to TEotW didn't Ishamael actually heal LTT's maddness? Seems to me that Ishy is pretty damned good at healing.

[Leopoled Boothe]

And your thoughts on my comments about the 'obvious' problem of the Slayer theory? Specifically the scenario it requires. Its in the post prior to yours if that helps.

 

Luckers, I have to go now but I am going to get to this. Your arguments are good, very good infact and I will address them. So don't stop checking this thread just yet. I will definitly get to it if not this evening then tomorrow at the latest.

[Cybertrolloc]

So why would I admit to being mistaken and still attempt to justify it? Because my motto is give ground when appropriate but never surrender. No no' date=' never surrender, we could hardly have such an intersting, throught provoking and dare I say fun debate if I were to surrender so easisly. Wouldn't you agree?[/quote']

You're not the worst kind of troll so that makes everything ok?

 

No no, not nameless. He does have a name, his name is Perrin. Slayer feels threatened by Perrin, Perrin whom he betrayed to the Trollocs, Perrin who wounded him, Perrin who would likely blow his cover, Perrin who for all Slayer knew as out hunting him with is Trolloc defeating army. Slayer had more that enough reason to feel threatened by Perrin.

We later learn that Slayer can easily kill Perrin, excepting a Taveran miracle. Why doesn't he?

[Beckon]

Leopolde:

 

I was rejecting your assertion that RJ's failure to rescind his comment meant (or could mean) that it was still valid. How many things did you say 13 years ago which are no longer true today? Do you keep track and make an announcement if a time comes when one of them is no longer true? I didn't think so. I don't believe it's possible to infer anything from the fact that we haven't been updated on the "who killed Asmo" score.

 

The whole Perrin drove him in there thing is still a guess based on a guess. It necessitates further guesses, such as "would he stay in the tower that long and why?", "would Lanfear know Asmo was in Caemlyn and if not how did Slayer find out so fast?" etc.

 

I still question Lanfear's motive as well since the whole reason she's in the tower is because Lews Therin let another woman touch him...AGAIN! I know she said she'd kill him, but I just don't see Asmodean being at the front of her mind in that moment.

 

Like Luckers I'm waiting on your explanation of how Slayer could be intuitively obvious when we haven't seen him for upwards of 3 Randland months and there was no mention of him in the book in which the murder took place. I'd seriously accept Lanfear as a suspect before I'd accept Slayer. Unless of course you have something more than having seen him near the tower of Genjei once.

[Luckers]

Luckers, I have to go now but I am going to get to this. Your arguments are good, very good infact and I will address them. So don't stop checking this thread just yet. I will definitly get to it if not this evening then tomorrow at the latest.

 

Thanks brother.

[grump]

Beckon I listed that along with 7 or 8 other Airy building blocks that everyone uses as part of whatever Asmo theory they Favor.

The Point is she could have been ploting with the other Chosen.

Pretending to plot with the other chosen while following her own plan to turn him.

Spying on the Chosen and coming to warn Rand.

Knowing Asmo was shielded she could have arrainged for practiclly anyone to take care of him as an opportunity presented itself If she thought he had outlived his usefulness.

That way she could arrange to be with Rand when he dissipeared and say I told you he was weak and untrustworthy.

One general thing I have noticed through all the books is that the Chosen will work through intermediarys when they can and only put themselves on the line if they can't do it any other way.

 

Did that answer your question ?

[Leopoled Boothe]

Ok Lucks, I promised I would do this so here goes. Please know that this wasn't easy :)

 

We don't know that Caemlyn was the meeting place, its true, but there are some things that we do know, that contribute to the discussion.

 

One, they did specify the methodology of the link.

 

Do we even know that there was a meeting place? I know that they agreed that they would take out Rand by linking but did they actually agree to meet, link and then travel together? Unless that's stated somewhere in black and white then I find it unlikely. As I's sure your are already awared the Forsaken have some major trust issues particularly with one another. The fact that they are even linking in the first place takes a rather large and uncharateristic vote of trust on the part of two Forsaken, as two of them will be relinquishing control to the third. Agreeing to link beforehand and the allow the one in control to open a gateway and guide them through it takes yet another equally large and uncharacteristic vote of trust. Does it really seem likely that not only one but two of the Forsaken are actually put two large votes of trust in one of their confederates? The fact that they would even agree to link has to have pushed the well past the limit. Are they really going to find room for a second vote to trust? As I've mentioned before the one in control could very easily open a portal to an alternate location where a trap is waiting for the other two.

 

Specifically Lanfear was to watch Rand, and wait for him to react to Mat's death by dashing off to Illian. After she witnessed that, she was to join Graendal and Rahvin, and go to Illian to take Rand out while he was busy with Sammael.

 

Three, their plan was based on reaction. They would jump on Rand the second he moved on Sammael. That implies that Graendal and Rahvin were waiting in the same place once the plan had been instigated by the command being sent to Melindhra. Rahvin was in Caemlyn.

 

 

All true but I really don't think the time pressure is a great as that. First off traveling is pretty much instantonous so it really wouldn't take much time for Lanfear to travel to Graendal in some as of yet undisclosed location and then for the two of them to travel to Camelyn. They also have a little time because there are certain things that need to happen before Rand can go dashing off to Illian. Rand has to notice or be informed of the comotion in Mat's tent (which may not be all that different from the comotion that Mat and Melindhra made on any given night becuase lets fact it Aiel sex has got to be rather rough and noisey :D ), discover Mat's dead body and discover the knife with the bees. This would allow more time for Lanfear inform the other two, sepearately, that the plan was in action and for the three to then independantly travel to Illian. This may seem a little less efficent at fist glance but I really don't think that any Forsaken is going to travel while linked to another unless it is absolutly necessary.

 

Two, none of the Forsaken knew Graendals' hding place at that stage in the books. More specifically, Lanfear and Rahvin didn't. That means that Graendal had to be some place where Lanfear could find her, and in a hurry.

 

True but Lanfear and Graendal could have come up with any number of neutral locations for this meeting. Why not Camelyn? Again it comes down to the trust issues. I Graendal really going to just wait around by herself in Rhavins territory? Does she trust Rhavin enough to go by herself to a place where Rhavin clearly has an advantage over her and there is no one else around to keep him in check? That just doesn't seem like the Graendal I know.

 

 

I think that point was playing to the obvious issue. Lan's bond broke as a result of Moiraine fighting a Forsaken, falling through a ter'angreal, and having that ter'angreal subsequently explode. Obvious answer, death.

 

I have to disagree I do not think that death is the obvious answer at all, in fact I thought that because the way that scene was done thier fate was left rather ambiguious. Another lesson I've learned through prior experience with Science Fiction is that unless someone produces a corps then the character ain't dead. And even if they do produce a corps it can be iffy. What was obvious to me was the Lanfear was far too important a character to be taken out of the story in that manner. Given her past with LTT, I thought it was obvious that she still had a bigger part to play. Moiraine's death I guess I could have found a little more beleivable but still I figured no corpse = no death

 

From the point of view of the reader at the time, for Lanfear to be responsible she must have survived the original explosion, the fight with Moiraine, and the fury of the Finn.

 

Actually, from the point of view of the reader we had no idea what had happned to Lanfear. Yes she needed to survive the explosion and the fight with Moiraine but badguys in works of fiction seem to have a knack for surviving such things. As for the Finns, at this point we had no reason to assume they would be furrious, we had no idea how they would react to the situation. Incidentally, I would point out that I have never talked to a single reader who actually believed that Lanfear was dead on gone.

 

She had to get word past the Finns to a man who had last been seen entering the Tower of Genjei nearly six months beforehand,

 

She may not have had to get it past him. For all we know Slayer has access to the Tower of Ghenji (yes, I know that is an assumption in itself lets not open that can of worms again) because he has some kind of arangement with the Finns. It is possilbe that he was standing right there when Lanfear was captured.

 

 

whom we had never seen connected to her in the past--ever--

 

True, but had knowlage of a past connection it would constitute one of those underling, flaming arrows that RJ mentioned. We saw Slayer commanding Trolocs and therefore known that he is most likely a minion of the Shadow. Given that the Forsaken are high ranking individuals in the Shadow it isn't much of a stretch to assume that she would have authortiy over him.

 

commanding, of all things, the death of Asmodean--as opposed to aid in her escape, the death of Rand

 

My best guess as to why she would order the death of Asmo as opposed to Rand, Aviendha or Egwene is that Lanfear is an arrogant person and therefore was quite confident that she would escape her captors and wanted the honor of killing the latter three for herself. Taking away Rand's teacher would be a nice way to get some minor measure of revenge on him in the mean time.

 

As to why she didn't order Slayer to aid in her escape I really don't have a good answer for that one. The best I can do is to specualte that if he did have some kind of pact with the Finns then perhaps that pact pervented him from aiding in her escape. Of couse that would be based on an awfal lot of assumptions. I'll admit that I'm not completely satisfied with my answer but its better than no answer at all, I guess.

 

--that man had to get out of Finnland, discover Asmodean was in Caemlyn--something he had no way of knowing, remember as far as Lanfear knew Rand should have been in Illian, or failing that, Cairhain. And Asmodean certainly would have either been with him, or waiting for him in Cairhain.

 

Hmmmm that's a tough one. The Finns do seem to have an awful of info about Randland particualrly its future perhaps they were able to tell Slayer where Asmo would be. Alot of it depends on what relationship, if any, Slayer has with the Finns.

 

Moreover all of this must have happened in the, at best, 6 hours (more likely 3 or 4) between when she fell through the doorway, and when Asmodean died.

 

Finnland is another dimention so it is possible that time passes differently there. Moreover, the time diffence between Randland and Finnland could be as variable as the time diffence between Randland and TAR. So what amounted to several days or weeks in Finnland could have amounted to a few hours in Randland

 

 

There is no way RJ could have concidered that intuitively obvious to us at the time of the book. In fact, obvious or not, im not even sure its possible.

 

I don't know what to say about this. I have long since come to the conclusion that RJ has a rather odd idea about what is intuativly obvious. He did say that the hints were not underlined with flaming arrows so I really believe that he expected us to go on the fact that Slayer, a minion of the Shadow apparntly has access to Finnland via the Tower of Ghenji and the fact that Lanfear was last seen entering a gateway to Finnland. I agree it harldy seems intuativly obvious to the casual observer but as I said RJ seems to have a stange idea of what constitutes intuativly obvious.

[Leopoled Boothe]

So why would I admit to being mistaken and still attempt to justify it? Because my motto is give ground when appropriate but never surrender. No no' date=' never surrender, we could hardly have such an intersting, throught provoking and dare I say fun debate if I were to surrender so easisly. Wouldn't you agree?[/quote']

 

You're not the worst kind of troll so that makes everything ok?

 

Im sorry, who are you? Do I know you? Was this comment addressed to you? I'd say the obvious answers would have to be, "Don't care", "Don't want to" and "absolutly not so mind your own beeswax."

 

If Beckon has convinced me of anything it is that she is quite capable of handeling herself and does not need you to come butting in to defend her.

 

As to the accusation of being a troll, I'll have you know that I have never posted anything with the intent to bating or upseting another poster. I do joke with other posters from time to time, but that is actually a compliment as I am giving them the benifit of the doubt by assuming that they have a sence of humor and aren't so delicate that they can't take a little good natured ribbing. But if I have offended your delicate sensabilites then by all means go cimb in bed, pull your PC sheet over your head and hope that all the mean and nasty people of the world will just go away. I mean all of their actions are actually motivated by some conspiracy to keep you down anyway. Right?

 

Or in short, life's hard all around. Get over youself because no one is interested.

 

If you wish to participate in the discussion that's fine, the more the merrier, but please let's not resort of name calling.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I was rejecting your assertion that RJ's failure to rescind his comment meant (or could mean) that it was still valid. How many things did you say 13 years ago which are no longer true today? Do you keep track and make an announcement if a time comes when one of them is no longer true?

 

If it is something that still interests people and that they still continually ask me questions about then yes I certainly do. Some of my friends and I do have some very old debates and discussions going on some of which date back 13 years or more. The more we lean the more we update the discussions.

 

I didn't think so.

 

Well then I guess you were wrong now weren't you? :D

 

 

The whole Perrin drove him in there thing is still a guess based on a guess.

 

Not denying that, but so is Graendal and the other two meeting in Camelyn:

 

Guess: Graendal, Lanfear and Rhavin agree to meet and link before traveling to Illian

 

Guess based on that guess: That meeting place is Camelyn.

 

Please note I'm not saying that these are necessarly bad guesses but it does involve a guess based on a guess. Honestly, I see no problem with making guesses as long as they are educated guesses and are based on viable possibilites.

 

 

 

[/b]

[Luckers]

Do we even know that there was a meeting place? I know that they agreed that they would take out Rand by linking but did they actually agree to meet, link and then travel together? Unless that's stated somewhere in black and white then I find it unlikely

 

The fact is that there was. They began the plan by sending orders to Melindhra. After that Lanfear was to watch Rand, go to the others, and launch the assault. But she didn't know where Graendals hideout was, they had to meet somewhere. Ergo meeting place. And given Rhavin was in Caemlyn, they had met in Caemlyn previously, and the very nature of their plan was based around reacting to Rands attack quickly, i find it likely Graendal was in Caemlyn.

 

All true but I really don't think the time pressure is a great as that. First off traveling is pretty much instantonous so it really wouldn't take much time for Lanfear to travel to Graendal in some as of yet undisclosed location and then for the two of them to travel to Camelyn.

 

My argument wasn't that an undiclosed place wasn't impossible, its that of the two posibilities Caemlyn had the most going for it.

 

Remember we are discussing what RJ may have concidered intuitively obvious--i.e. that we could intuit it based on the information we have, with relative ease. Caemlyn fits.

 

As for your response to my scenario. I never claimed that the individual situations wouldn't have a possible answer, if we twisted enough and assumed enough. But those answers require too much mental wiggling, especially when you combine all of those unlikely events as the entire situation.

 

I'm sorry man, its not viable. Even with hindsight and the ability and some seriously acrobatic mental prevarications i dont think its possible. Under the shadow of 'intuitively obvious'...

[Beckon]

If it is something that still interests people and that they still continually ask me questions about then yes I certainly do. Some of my friends and I do have some very old debates and discussions going on some of which date back 13 years or more. The more we lean the more we update the discussions

.

 

RJ has never willingly particpated in a debate on this topic. He's been bludgeoned with questions about it and his answers have sometimes been a tad snarky to the point of flat out refusing to discuss it. And it's still irrelevant because the casual observer cannot be expected to have knowledge of the fact that this is even a topic of debate in the WoT community let alone what the author may have said about it.

 

I'm afraid your response to the obvious question fails. For one thing what's intuitive to you via your vast experience with works of fiction is not relevant to the "most casual observer". Heck, by your own admission you used to be in favor of Graendaldunnit until recently so it apparently wasn't even obvious to you.

 

The difference between Graendal theories and this one is that it starts with something that's known. It starts with characters who are on screen in the relevant book, who's activities within days, even hours, of the murder are to some extent known. We know they're going to link and ambush Rand. It's safer to not link in Illian where Rand is expected to be showing up in a murderous rage momentarily. It's safer to arrive already linked. Graendal doesn't want her location known, Caemlyn is a location they know they control.

 

On the trust issue, it's more than the link. Sammael has agreed, however unwillingly, to be the bait in their trap. He's agreed to allow, not only Rand in a murderous rage, but 3 linked Chosen on his territory. Graendal and Lanfear badgered him into this (or out of backing out) in the TAR meeting Nynaeve witnessed. They accused him of cowardice, and said he should display as much trust as Rhavin who agreed to be part of a link he couldn't control. From that we know that the topic of equal displays of trust has come up, Graendal's sacrifice is to wait on non-neutral ground.

 

On the guessing part: again all guesses aren't created equal. If you ask why would they meet in Caemlyn, I can say because of the need to link and the need for Lanfear to go find them the simplest solution would be for both to wait in the same place. Why Caemlyn, because it's held by one of them and the other has not revealed her location. In short, I can answer "whys" with facts that are on paper.

 

If I say why would Slayer be in the tower, you say well he seemed to go in there once before when he felt threatened so maybe he did it a second time. Then I say but that was three Randland months ago, you say well maybe time works differently there. You're answering "whys" with more maybes. It isn't the same.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I'm afraid your response to the obvious question fails. For one thing what's intuitive to you via your vast experience with works of fiction is not relevant to the "most casual observer".

 

Yes, but experience has also show that not a single WOT reader I've ever talked to (and I've talked to plenty) has believed that Lanfear and Moiraine were actually dead. Yourself included by you own admission. Ergo death does not seem to be the obvious fate for Lanfear.

 

Heck, by your own admission you used to be in favor of Graendaldunnit until recently so it apparently wasn't even obvious to you.

 

Yes, but this brings us right back to my origional argument. Apparently the correct answer was not obvious to alot of people, hence RJ's statement that only one person had gotten it right off the bat.

 

Its funny how after all we've been through we've ended up right back where we started. Anyway, If there is one thing that is obvious it is that neither of us is willing to give up our position just yet. I've have already offered you the opportunity to agree to disagree and I suggest you take it, I'm afraid it is the best offer I make at the moment. I feel little more can be accomplished through further argument. I have so enjoyed this, but I am exhausted and there are so many other topics on this board to explore. I hope you have enjoyed this as much as I.

 

 

Sincerly Yours,

LB

[Leopoled Boothe]

Thank you for plugging a hole in my reasoning. I completly spaced that Slayer left town wounded. It would have been tough to attack anybody in that condition and we don't know what access he had to healing. So a books worth of time would have him back in full operating condition.

 

No problem bro (or sis?)

 

Did any thoughts come to you about the Mat portion of the post?

 

No, unfortunatly I am stumped on that one.

[Tenshin_Xo]

I'm afraid your response to the obvious question fails. For one thing what's intuitive to you via your vast experience with works of fiction is not relevant to the "most casual observer".

 

Yes' date=' but experience has also show that not a single WOT reader I've ever talked to (and I've talked to plenty) has believed that Lanfear and Moiraine were actually dead. Yourself included by you own admission. Ergo death does not seem to be the obvious fate for Lanfear.

[/quote']

 

Who do you suppose Cyndane is then?

[Beckon]

In fairness it's not likely Lanfear was killed by the actual trip to the door. As Cyndane she remembers her time with the 'finns so it would seem something else killed her.

 

But I'm not even disputing Lanfear being alive. It needs more than Lanfear alive to establish a likelihood that she ordered Slayer to kill Asmodean.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Who do you suppose Cyndane is then?

 

Your Mama :D But seriously, this refers specifically to the events on the Carhein docks in "The Fire's of Heaven" and my impressions thereof after my first read through. My imperessions were 1) that Lanfear did not die in the explosion and 2) that Lanfear still has a role to play in the story and she would be back. Now I did not predict the part about her dying at a later time and then coming back in a new body, but I was essentially correct on both accounts. Lanfear did not die in the explosion, she died sometime later after being held by the Finns. 2) She did come back (as Cyndane) and still does have a role to play in the story.

[Tenshin_Xo]

Fair enough, I agree that she didn't die right away. I mis-read your posts and thought you were entertaining the idea that Lanfear was in Finn limbo along with Moiraine.

 

With the way the Finns feel about the Shadow, why would they allow Slayer and Lanfear to meet, while they were there? (assuing of course that Slayer was actually there,:evil: )