Why Graendal didn't kill Asmodean

[grump]

Hey Bob Asmo was shielded. You might factor that into your point number 3

[Beckon]

The shield wouldn't prevent him from immobilizing a non-channeller. It's arguable whether it would prevent him from defending himself against a non-AoL channeller. Remember he made no attempt to channel which indicates that he knew it was a waste of effort.

 

Also, based on his reaction, he not only was surprised to see the person, he knew his death was iminent. He'd been around Moiraine on a daily basis for months and she'd never shown any signs before of wanting to murder him.

[BrainFireBob]

Shielded, Asmodean "would be hard-pressed to match one of the Wise Ones who could channel."

 

The Wise Ones Rand's most familiar with: Amys, Melaine- who are as strong as Moiraine or Siuan, Romanda or Lelaine, as I recall.

 

That's still considerable strength, just not nearly the strength to which Asmo is accustomed. Add in his skill- which is NOT strength dependent, and there's no problem.

[Guest Fire Lord]

There is something I don't understand, something every Graendal supporter seems so sure of I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere.

 

Whether she was surprised by Asmo or saw him and decided to off him is not really relevant to the case, but why is Graendal presented as completely confident that she could utterly wipe Asmo out without any hitch? I don't seem to remember a fight between two channelers where one kills the other without so much as a scrap of opposition.

 

He was shielded, I hear you say. Yes, but so far as we know, only Rand, Lanfear and Asmo himself knew of that shield. Had Lanfear let anything about it slip to the others, then they would have known she was helping Rand, and it would have scrambled their would-be ambush plan.

 

IMO, Graendal would have expected to face a full strength Asmo, and what with Rand present, she would not have been as confident as she is presented. Consider this. What would have happened had she missed her strike? One very likely possibility is Rand would have noticed and immediately come to investigate, something that was way down on her to-do list.

 

What I am trying to point out here is that the battle could go either way, and she should have known it, so it's rather a big risk she took. Yet as we see her she's confident she can crush him.

 

Asmo knew he was on the top of the most wanted list. He knew he was a dead man if any Forsaken saw him. And let's be honest, most Forsaken had the means to get where he was. Had the DO wanted his head to roll, it would have. Find Rand; where he is, Asmo is. Considering the Forsaken can Travel, what would be so shocking about finding one there? For that matter, why would he go to the trouble to talk to his killer? If it was Graendal, he knew he was dead the moment he saw her. Sense tells me that he would 1) run as fast as his legs could carry him, or 2) try to talk his way out of trouble. He was so shocked he did neither. How does Graendal in herself cause that reaction? My view is that the 'you?' is specific. 'You!' to me denotes surprise. 'You?'is more than surprise. He can't believe what his eyes are showing him, that person shouldn't be there, thus the question in the word. Is there any reason why Graendal shouldn't be there? No, she can.

 

 

I don't believe that Asmo's death was instantaneous. As of the door halfway open you can see whoever is opening it.Asmo took that step, became aware of the killer, stopped, said his say. From the moment he realised the killer was there to the moment he died he could have snatched at saidin to defend himself. We have numerous example of how fast channelers are. Graendal obviously knew that. Why did she allow him to see her, knowing it was time enough for him to strike at her, or at least defend himself? She had to know that his instinctive reaction at seeing her or any other Forsaken would be to strike out or defend himself. Why would the surprise effect work on him when he can defend himself? (I'm trying to see this from Graendal's point of view. We as readers know Asmo can't defend himself, but she doesn't. So in her planning she would count on a full strength Asmo. The man survived the AoL. Why should Graendal's presence shock him to the point of inaction? Why should she believe it will work?)

 

So you carry a gun, step in front of an enemy who has a gun as well, you allow him time to see you, time enough for him to shoot your head off, then kill him? How do you know when he sees you he will be so shocked he will forget how to use his gun?

[Beckon]

I've never speculated anything about Graendal's confidence. I don't even think she was there specifically to kill Asmo. There are quite a few options for how early the killer saw Asmo coming, depending on the precise construction of the courtyard, the possible presence of windows or balefire damage, etc. The murderer could potentially have been watching him since before he left Avi and Mat. Even if there are no windows they still have time to prepare a weave because they can see the door begin to open before Asmodean realizes anyone is there.

 

Asmodean on the other hand, is shielded which leaves him significantly weaker than any of the other Forsaken. Regardless if the murderer knows that, Asmo knows it and he knows he's toast against one of the Forsaken. He's stated himself that they would kill him on sight because of his betrayal. If Asmo opens the door and sees one of the Forsaken, he knows he's dead. The Forsaken are not merciful people, which Asmodean certainly knows. He's not likely to be able to talk his way out of this. Even if he tried to run, a Forsaken at full strength could have him dead long before he can get to someone who could help him. Because of this he makes no attempt to defend himself. That's what the killer takes advantage of, in addition to the extra time they have before the door is fully open and Asmo sees them.

 

How do you know when he sees you he will be so shocked he will forget how to use his gun?

 

You don't have to know in advance that they'll be that shocked in order to take advantage of his shock when it happens.

 

Also the statement that the word still hung in the air when death took him. You? NO! doesn't take that long to say and the book tells us he was dead almost before the word was out of his mouth.

 

Asmo knowing that the other Forsaken have the ability to Travel wherever they want doens't mean he would expect to find any of them at the palace in Caemlyn. He knows nothing of the four plotting together. The Forsaken aren't exactly buddies though they're not above cooperating if they feel there's something to be gained from it. Rand just killed the one Forsaken they knew was there, what reason would another of them have to be hanging out there?

 

Add to that the fact that Rand's expedition to Caemlyn was a very spur of the moment thing. There isn't time for news to travel by conventional means that he's not still in Cairhien. The Forsaken can do a lot of things but they're not omniscient and they have to work with the communication technology of the time. They can Travel but their spies can't necessarily. As far as Asmo knows, the only one of the Forsaken who could have known he was in Caemlyn was dead.

 

Additionally, if you go with the "you?" being specific, who would elicit that reaction and how capable of being there are they? I gave my opinion a couple posts ago. There are supposedly clues pointing to who did it, but those who would cause that reaction cannot be linked to the crime...to my satisfaction anyway. Two are being held captive in another dimension have questionable motive, and we know too little about the other (Slayer) to make him a suspect. As an assasin in the employ of the Forsaken Slayer wouldn't need his own motive but there's no clue that anyone has made use of him since we last saw him leave the Two Rivers.

[BrainFireBob]

She wasn't. In fact, she was the one who displayed leeryness of him at the Four's first meeting.

 

I'm firmly in the camp that Graendal didn't plan Asmo's death, or if she did she had only seconds. I think Asmo stumbled on her doing the same thing in Rahvin's lair she did to Sammael's later, and Asmo was about to walk in on her, so she acted to eliminate him, because she thought he was still a Forsaken-level threat. Hence Asmo not bothering to defend himself- he knew all that. Hence her not trying to capture him- she felt it was too risky. She may even have figured it was his "weakness" versus her quickness that allowed her to kill him without effort- and if the DO didn't know Asmo was weakened, her trip to SG would have been to brag about how she eliminated the traitor- who was also Rand's most dangerous ally in the eyes of the Shadow.

[Guest Fire Lord]

Asmodean on the other hand, is shielded which leaves him significantly weaker than any of the other Forsaken. Regardless if the murderer knows that, Asmo knows it and he knows he's toast against one of the Forsaken. He's stated himself that they would kill him on sight because of his betrayal. If Asmo opens the door and sees one of the Forsaken, he knows he's dead. The Forsaken are not merciful people, which Asmodean certainly knows. He's not likely to be able to talk his way out of this. Even if he tried to run, a Forsaken at full strength could have him dead long before he can get to someone who could help him. Because of this he makes no attempt to defend himself. That's what the killer takes advantage of, in addition to the extra time they have before the door is fully open and Asmo sees them.

 

Asmo knows he's toast against any FS, true, but the FS don't, so they have absolutely no reason to expect any helpless feelings on his side. They believe he is the same dude he always was (a FS)and they will plan on that knowledge. And he has stated that he will hang on to that tuft of grass to the end, no matter what. In the end that tuft will give out and he will fall, but until then, he will hang on. This doesn't strike me as a mentality of someone who, when faced with death, just stand there and accepts his fate. You perhaps don't realise that, among others, by dying he delivers himself on a platter to the DO, some thing I think he would want to avoid at any cost.

 

Had the murderer known of the shield the scenario would have been different. When you possess accurate knowledge, you have the possibility to take advantage of it. Graendal had no such knowledge, so I think it would have been in her interest to strike as fast as possible. Yet she delayed, and I don't understand why. As you stated, the FS are not merciful, so Graendal should not expect any quarter from Asmo, she has to act as fast as possible-which she didn't-, not to wait out for any possible weakness you can take advantage of.

 

You don't have to know in advance that they'll be that shocked in order to take advantage of his shock when it happens.

 

The argument I've seen on the boards is that since Graendal was on dangerous grounds she was using a disguise, and so she revealed herself intentionally to freeze Asmo into inaction. To do that she would have to have planed it, as in she calculated that the sight of her true self would be a shock to incapacitate him long enough so she could do the deed.

 

Also the statement that the word still hung in the air when death took him. You? NO! doesn't take that long to say and the book tells us he was dead almost before the word was out of his mouth.

 

As I stated before, I count from the moment the door was halfway open, she could already see him, and yet she let him take that step. She should have struck out the moment she realised he was aware of her, but didn't. She deliberately gave him one or two or more seconds to take action. That is not something you do with a strong, experienced channeler.

 

Asmo knowing that the other Forsaken have the ability to Travel wherever they want doens't mean he would expect to find any of them at the palace in Caemlyn. He knows nothing of the four plotting together. The Forsaken aren't exactly buddies though they're not above cooperating if they feel there's something to be gained from it.

 

Asmo doesn't need to know that FS D is plotting with FS C. They are hitmen, and for all he knows the order to kill him has been given. As such, he would expect any FS (not just those four) to be hunting him. Why do you think he always hung close to Rand? The presence of a FS in the palace isn't something he should expect, but neither should he be overly shocked to see one there, knowing that they can reach him pretty much anywhere. The last time you heard of me I was in Los Angeles, but we suddenly meet in London. You din't expect me to be there? Well to bad for you, I took a plane, and I'm still going to off you.

 

 

Rand just killed the one Forsaken they knew was there, what reason would another of them have to be hanging out there?

 

I'm rather surprised by this statement. Ever heard of vultures? I'll use Graendal's supporters own argument for this. 'Since she went to check the Illian palace after Sammael's death, she could as well done the same thing with Rahvin'. Asmo is a FS, he should know their nature, know that they hold no lost love for each other. Why is it beyond him to think that one FS or another could be snooping around looking for something to gain? What reason had Graendal to be hanging in Illian right after Sammael's death? That she does it to me means that at least some of the other can as well, so the death of one them doesn't mean the rest are going to avoid that area. Besides, what better time than that, when everyone is convinced you are not going to show your nose?

 

Add to that the fact that Rand's expedition to Caemlyn was a very spur of the moment thing. There isn't time for news to travel by conventional means that he's not still in Cairhien. The Forsaken can do a lot of things but they're not omniscient and they have to work with the communication technology of the time. They can Travel but their spies can't necessarily. As far as Asmo knows, the only one of the Forsaken who could have known he was in Caemlyn was dead.

 

I'll grant that, though again it is as far as he knows, there are obviously stuff he doesn't know that can kill him. Thus why I believe he should expect the unexpected.

 

Additionally, if you go with the "you?" being specific, who would elicit that reaction and how capable of being there are they? I gave my opinion a couple posts ago. There are supposedly clues pointing to who did it, but those who would cause that reaction cannot be linked to the crime...to my satisfaction anyway. Two are being held captive in another dimension have questionable motive, and we know too little about the other (Slayer) to make him a suspect. As an assasin in the employ of the Forsaken Slayer wouldn't need his own motive but there's no clue that anyone has made use of him since we last saw him leave the Two Rivers.

 

Like I said, he is too shocked for it just to be Graendal (or any other FS). The person he is looking at simply shouldn't be there. Graendal simply doesn't fit in there.

 

She wasn't. In fact, she was the one who displayed leeryness of him at the Four's first meeting.

 

I'm firmly in the camp that Graendal didn't plan Asmo's death, or if she did she had only seconds. I think Asmo stumbled on her doing the same thing in Rahvin's lair she did to Sammael's later, and Asmo was about to walk in on her, so she acted to eliminate him, because she thought he was still a Forsaken-level threat. Hence Asmo not bothering to defend himself- he knew all that. Hence her not trying to capture him- she felt it was too risky. She may even have figured it was his "weakness" versus her quickness that allowed her to kill him without effort- and if the DO didn't know Asmo was weakened, her trip to SG would have been to brag about how she eliminated the traitor- who was also Rand's most dangerous ally in the eyes of the Shadow.

 

I'll try not to repeat myself, but I still don't see why she didn't react instantly. Had it been that, she would have killed him before he had uttered a single word. She had the time and capability to do it. That is what I would have done. It might seem such a short time, but we know it is ample time to a channeler. My view is that he was determined to hang on to Rand, whatever it took. That doesn't seem to go well with his meek acceptance/helplessness you mention.

Additionally, I don't think that is the reason he failed to act, rather he was too stunned to react. Trollocs are nothing to compare to a FS, I'll grant, yet when they were surrounded by hundreds he still fought on. I don't know much about him to speculate about his mental disposition, but that he was determined to hang on (yes, I'll hammer this upon your heads until you comprehend it :D ) does say something.

[Beckon]

For one thing, don't use arguments presented by other Graendal supporters to refute my arguments. I've never put forth Graendal's trip to Illian as evidence that she would have gone to Caemlyn. I also don't think (not anymore anyway) he was using a disguise and revealed herself purposely to make sure Asmodean knew who killed him.

 

I believe she was in Caemlyn as per the plot to lure Rand to Illian. She and Rhavin were to wait in Caemlyn for Lanfear to confirm that Rand was off to Illian to avenge Mat's death. The three would link in Caemlyn then Travel to Illian together.

 

I don't think she was disguised because I believe she thought she had every right to be there. She may however have waited for Asmo to see her before acting to make sure he knew who killed him. She still would have had a time advantage from seeing the door open in order to prepare a weave and as I said in my prior post, may have been able to see him coming from some distance off. Since we have virtually no detail from the actual description of Asmo's death, she could have shielded him herself and once that was successful would have had plenty of time to kill him. Finding himself completely shielded and face to face with one of the Forsaken would surely have been enough to cause the blood to drain from his face. Even without the shield though she had the advantage of preparedness.

 

I'm rather surprised by this statement. Ever heard of vultures? I'll use Graendal's supporters own argument for this. 'Since she went to check the Illian palace after Sammael's death, she could as well done the same thing with Rahvin'.

 

Again I have never supported the "but she did it in Illian after Sammael's death" argument. If Graendal was just doing her own thing, she would not have heard of Rhavin's death the same day. I believe it was simple bad luck for Rhavin that news of Morgase's supposed death reached Rand on the same day they sprung their trap by ordering Mat's death. As I said I believe Graendal went to Caemlyn to meet Rhavin and Lanfear before the three were to head to Illian to trap Rand. Because of the limits of 3rd age communication (which you conceded), Asmodean has every reason to believe that nobody has any idea he's not in Cairhien.

 

Again on the point of the "you?" thing...I've said that I have always gotten the impression that it was specific, or that Asmo felt whoever it was could not have been there. The problem is that there is no real support for the people who would elicit that response from Asmodean if you interpret it that way. In light of the total lack of evidence for any non-Forsaken other than "you?" I'm forced to conclude it was one of the Forsaken. At that point, process of elimination makes it Graendal.

[reyler]

Okay, I'm going to make two quick points and then I'm back out. These are things that need to stop being used as "evidence" against Graendal (and before you respond, Beckon, I don't necessarily mean you specifically):

 

1) Graendal went through Sammael's stuff after his death, why not Rahvin's?

 

2) The Dark One "all but promised" to make her Nae'blis. Why?

 

#1 is poor evidence because: she knew Sammael had angreal. He flaunted the fact at her. The possible gain outweighed the risks in that case, and even then she had to be very circumspect. Why would she assume for a second Rahvin had a similar stash?

 

#2 doesn't really work either. Demandred got what seemed like an offer when giving his report right at the beginning of LoC, with no known deed to have earned it. Shai'tan promised him nothing, just gave him some renewed motivation to do the Lord's work. How is Graendal's experience automatically different?

[Beckon]

For the record, I said that because he quoted my post and then used it to refute me.

 

I agree with the first point. The second sort of. I agree the DO seems to dangle that carrot in front of all of them, at least those who don't make complete fools of themselves. It's certainly not evidence by itself, but it does lend a little weight to the idea Graendal did it. She was only just introduced in book five and didn't do anything (that we saw) but participate in a completely failed plot to bait Rand into attacking Sammael in Illian. If she'd gone to Shayol Ghul and the DO asked what she'd accomplished and she said "well uhmmm nothing really" he wouldn't have been very congratulatory.

 

We have the actual words from Demandred but we don't have them from Graendal, only her memory of it. We don't know it's the same as the Demandred scene any more than we know it's different.

[reyler]

Well, to our knowledge Demandred hadn't done much of anything either, yet Shai'tan dropped the N-bomb in conversation with him. Most likely as a way of getting his remaining Chosen to stop wasting time jockeying for position by making them think that spot was already theirs. And anyway, we found out in LoC that Graendal had already been busy destabilising the Domani government (or at least the royal family), so that's something right there for her to be proud of.

[Guest LurkingFadeFetcher]

I saw somebody had said that even shielded Asmo could have almost matched someone like Suian or Amys in the power and i must say that not so. I don't remember the chapter and i don't have my books with me but i remember something to prove this. While they are still camped in Rhuidean, Moraine and Egwene come and talk to Rand. As they are walking out Asmo uses Saidin to lift a pitcher of wine across the room. I remember Rand thinking that was about the edge of Asmo's abilities, floating a bloddy pitcher across the room!! I remembered that cuz Rand got so pissed at him for doing it while someone else was in the room. :lol:

Anyway I bring this up because with his abilities that limited he could not have done enough with the power to pose a real threat to anybody. People have said he could have bound anyone that wasn't a channeler and gotten away. But shielded as he was he might have been able to tie up someone's arm.

I personally think that it was not one of the forsaken or slayer. I actually think it might have been one of the Aiel, someone who had been watching for a while and just decided they didn't like him, or maybe another Aiel darkfriend. I don't have any evidence, but he likely would have recognized a lot of them.

And now you can feel free to rip on me all you want.

[grump]

You know it would clarify a lot of things if we knew if someone was waiting for him or if it was just a chance meeting. I mean was somebody tracking him or was it a crime of opportunity ?

 

Who ever you favor for having done it some where in your figuring you have to use what ifs or I suppose

[Leopoled Boothe]

I

personally think that it was not one of the forsaken or slayer. I actually think it might have been one of the Aiel, someone who had been watching for a while and just decided they didn't like him, or maybe another Aiel darkfriend. I don't have any evidence, but he likely would have recognized a lot of them.

 

Could be, but would Asmo have recognized some random Aiel, darkfriend or otherwise? I know he spent some time in the waste, but would have really have been familiar enough with and particular Aiel as to elicit the emphatic "You!" I think the killer was definitely someone who's face Asmo knew well, and I don't think any Aiel qualify.

[BrainFireBob]

And at the time, Rand was being derisive of Asmodean. He later comments that Asmo would be hard-pressed to "match one of the Wise Ones who could channel."

 

It is difficult to judge with accuracy, because Rand himself is so enormously strong, his perceptions aren't terribly objective.

[Beckon]

Siuan is able to bind Gareth Bryne with the power after being healed. She's surprised to find she can't lift him but she bound him easily.

[Beckon]

Siuan is able to bind Gareth Bryne with the power after being healed. She's surprised to find she can't lift him but she bound him easily.

[reyler]

I keep sticking my nose back in here *sigh*

 

Fetch: Lanfear's shield was designed to fade with time. At the beginning of FoH, levitating a pitcher may have been the extent of his ability, but by the end of the book, he had apparently regained enough strength to fight Trollocs with the Power, as Rand guessed to be the case. You could call that subjective due to being POV, but there wouldn't have been any point in writing it otherwise.

[Guest Fire Lord]

For one thing, don't use arguments presented by other Graendal supporters to refute my arguments. I've never put forth Graendal's trip to Illian as evidence that she would have gone to Caemlyn. I also don't think (not anymore anyway) he was using a disguise and revealed herself purposely to make sure Asmodean knew who killed him.

 

 

I'm guilty of generalizing here and I apologize, but the thing is pretty much every other Graendal supporter uses that line to justify her presence in the palace; I was yet to see someone not brandishing it (you're the first).

 

Then again, it is possible, but as it has been pointed out so many times, Sammael had all but broadcasted the presence of a stash in Illian, whereas Rahvin did no such thing. But you cannot arrive at that conclusion if you consider the first five books, as we didn't know Graendal enough to know she would have the temerity to do that, so this line is rather moot.

 

I believe she was in Caemlyn as per the plot to lure Rand to Illian. She and Rhavin were to wait in Caemlyn for Lanfear to confirm that Rand was off to Illian to avenge Mat's death. The three would link in Caemlyn then Travel to Illian together.

 

 

Not to refute this, but I find it hard to believe. As I remember (but I could be wrong, so please correct me), none (save Rand of course) knew at what specific time of the day he was supposed to attack Sammael. He could have gone in the morning or afternoon, time doesn't really matter since he can Travel. Either Graendal was prepared to hang around Rahvin from sunup waiting for word of the attack (which I find preposterous and don't think she would have done), or she turned up just as Rand was enganging Rahvin (which I find too coincidental but still possible) while they were still in the real world. The third option would be to arrive after, and it's possible. Is it actually confirmed in the books that they were to wait in Caemlyn?

 

I don't think she was disguised because I believe she thought she had every right to be there.

 

How? Asmo had been teaching Rand, and one thing he would surely want to know (if he din't already, seeing he is LTT) would be what the FS looked like. It would not do for him to blindly walk into one when he could avoid it. At least that's the logical conclusion Graendal (or any other FS) was likely to arrive to, and it's the logical thing to do.

 

If she arrived in the middle of the fight, why would she want to parade herself around in her true form, risking en encounter with Rand she would want to avoid? As soon as she realized there was something amiss, and who had Rahvin running, it's only understandable that she would want to avoid being recognized? Yet you would have her skulking around looking like her old self.

 

The same applies if she had arrived after the battle. Seeing Rand in the palace, the only conclusion would be that Rahvin was either dead, or had been chased away. Either way, that was hostile territory, and I don't understand why she would be as careless as to stroll around as Graendal. Not knowing that Asmo was rather harmless, he was even more prone to recognize her, thus doubling the threat.

 

Had she arrived before the battle, I agree that she would have been her true self, seeing she had no idea Rand would attack Rahvin instead of Sammael. If so, where was she? Rand only saw Andoran nobility, she was nowhere in that room.

 

She may however have waited for Asmo to see her before acting to make sure he knew who killed him.

 

If that's the case, then somebody please explain that to me. Why is him knowing his killer important? As far as she knows, he is not shielded, and is as strong as before, very capable of taking her out. She knows if he sees her he will instantly know she is there to kill him, so he'll shoot before asking questions. By allowing him to see her, she is handing him a golden opportunity that he can-will take advantage of, whether she has a weave ready or not. To do that she has to 1)know of the shield, so she is not overly concerned, 2)be totally confident she can kick his a**, or 3)she is stupid. The whole point of preparing a weave in advance is to surprise him and crush him before he has any chance to react.

 

She still would have had a time advantage from seeing the door open in order to prepare a weave and as I said in my prior post, may have been able to see him coming from some distance off.

 

You are making my point. She had a clear advantage, yet didn't really take advantage of it. That to me means /\/\/\ 1), 2) or 3)

 

Since we have virtually no detail from the actual description of Asmo's death, she could have shielded him herself and once that was successful would have had plenty of time to kill him. Finding himself completely shielded and face to face with one of the Forsaken would surely have been enough to cause the blood to drain from his face. Even without the shield though she had the advantage of preparedness.

 

I once asked what the DO would reward more: an alive and kicking Asmo taken to SG to be punished, or a dead Asmo, who is beyond reach? Because I do think the DO would want to make an example of him, in case some of his servants entertained thoughts of joining the enemy.

 

Asmo's death was not instantaneous, but it was quick enough. If she was able to shield him, why did she not take her time and enjoy it? Since she was so bent on letting him know who killed him?

 

Again on the point of the "you?" thing...I've said that I have always gotten the impression that it was specific, or that Asmo felt whoever it was could not have been there. The problem is that there is no real support for the people who would elicit that response from Asmodean if you interpret it that way. In light of the total lack of evidence for any non-Forsaken other than "you?" I'm forced to conclude it was one of the Forsaken. At that point, process of elimination makes it Graendal.

 

I'm curious, if you got that impression, but was forced to settle on Graendal, do you think that specificity applies to her more than, say, Sammael or Mesaana immediately after reading the FoH, before you had any other information?

Any special reason she could not be there?

[Vemynal]

from what we've seen of Graendal i'd sy some of these facts that don't make sense kinda add up though.

 

We know she loves mind games, we know she was once very controlled and never went to any extremes, we know she is now extremely gaudy and wasteful as her statement of society, we know she has been playing her own game from the start since she has been seen in the "demandred/semir/mesana/moggy" camp and the "rah/sam/lan camp

 

fitting with her gaudyness and her love of mind games i think it fits that she would let asmodean know her for who she is before she kills him.

[Guest Fire Lord]

we know she has been playing her own game from the start since she has been seen in the "demandred/semir/mesana/moggy" camp and the "rah/sam/lan camp

 

It's safe to assume that each FS has her/his own agenda . Rahvin clearly shows he doesn't trust them, and went along with the plan because it didn't hinder his own. We know Lanfear had her own plans, and so did all the others, I suspect. The FS don't do anything for anyone except themselves. I see Graendal the same way.

 

fitting with her gaudyness and her love of mind games i think it fits that she would let asmodean know her for who she is before she kills him.

 

Is that a sane decision? See it from her point of view, weigh the risks it presents against the outcome (which is not certain) and see what you get.

[Beckon]

I hate getting drawn into these discussions of minute details because the minute details are not there. RJ has told us this; there are clues but not with flaming arrows pointing to them.

 

The logic is this.

 

Fact:

The foursome is plotting together. Lanfear proposes that she can keep a close eye on Rand without him knowing.

 

Fact:

The plan is that, if neccessary someone close to Rand will die, plainly at Sammael's order. Rand wigs out and goes after Sammael in Illian. The other three are there linked and waiting to capture him.

 

Fact: Melindhra attempts to kill Mat with the Illian dagger. I believe this means the trap is sprung. This is the final straw that's going to ensure Rand goes to Illian. This step would not be taken without all 4 being prepared to go to Illian at any moment. Lanfear is there to report back to the other two. She possibly also intends to show herself to Rand and goad him into going to Illian if necessary.

 

Unfortunately news of Morgase's supposed death reaches Rand at the same time, and Melindhra fails in her task. Lanfear has her breakdown, falls through the door, is unable to tell the others to abort because Mat is still alive.

 

The timing for Graendal's arrival is variable. We obviously don't know anything about when she was to get there. I believe the plan was for the two to be in Caemlyn, and the three were to link there and Travel to Illian (no, this is not in the book; I'm just theorizing). The whole thing could have been scheduled on their end. They were to go forward unless Lanfear turned up and notified them of any need to abort or change the plans. She didn't show so Graendal goes to Caemlyn thinking everything is proceeding according to plan. She could have arrived moments before Asmodean opened that door. He even gives a shiver as he approaches, so if you want to be melodramatic about it he could be feeling her gateway close. At any rate she hasn't been sitting there watching paint peel all day.

 

Given how the battle went down and that the palace is a big place, if Graendal has only been there a few minutes there's no reason she would know anything was amiss. If she just got there and the plan was to meet Rhavin there, then she has no idea as yet that Rhavin isn't perfectly healthy. The palace was quiet at the time of the murder. Then Asmo walks in. If she just got there her surprise at finding Asmo walking around as if he owns the place would account for how long she waited to attack.

 

Yes I KNOW she didn't need to wait as long as she did. Why did she? I don't know, ask RJ. Your discomfort with how long she waited doesn't negate everything else. Anyone who killed him could have seen who it was before the door fully opened. Why would anyone wait? Graendal is the most likely to want her victim to know who killed him. We also don't know that she doesn't know he's shielded, and again, she could have put a proper shield on him when she saw who was opening the door. The actual canon description gives us no detail other than what Asmo said and that he died. A shield would have eliminated any need for haste on her part. Why didn't she savor it? Well having seen Asmo, she now knows all is not as it should be and she's not going to want to hang out and risk someone walking in on her. Again to reiterate, why would anyone wait til he saw them before acting? Who do you think would have waited? What evidence is there to support that they did it?

 

Yet again with the "you?" thing. The fact that I got that impression is not proof that RJ meant it that way. If I approach from that impression, I find little to no evidence that the people who would elicit that response did it. I'm forced to believe that my impression of it was NOT what RJ meant by it.

 

You know what I find really interesting? A lot of people are so bent on disproving Graendal theories. Why? Nobody ever seems to have an alternate suspect. Pointing out ways in which this or that detail of this or that theory may be incorrect doesn't disprove anything. It doesn't make anyone else any more likely to have done it. Asmodean is dead and somebody did it. Of the non-Forsaken suspects, there is either little to no evidence that they could or would have done it, or in the case of Fain RJ has stated that it wasn't him. That leaves the Forsaken of which all can be eliminated except Graendal(Lanfear falls to lack of evidence IMO).

[Cybertrolloc]

You know what I find really interesting? A lot of people are so bent on disproving Graendal theories. Why? Nobody ever seems to have an alternate suspect. Pointing out ways in which this or that detail of this or that theory may be incorrect doesn't disprove anything. It doesn't make anyone else any more likely to have done it. Asmodean is dead and somebody did it. Of the non-Forsaken suspects' date=' there is either little to no evidence that they could or would have done it, or in the case of Fain RJ has stated that it wasn't him. That leaves the Forsaken of which all can be eliminated except Graendal(Lanfear falls to lack of evidence IMO).[/quote']

It's not as bad as that, but healthy anyway. As long as it's not done in an impolite fashion at least. I had no problem eliminating Fain on the basis of what's in the books...but there's nothing in the way of proof of it for example.

[Beckon]

It's all good clean fun and that's fine. I'm not complaining about people disagreeing with me. It's just interesting to me that some people are against Graendal without being for anyone else. Those discussions have actually helped me hone my idea of the scenario, so it's not a bad thing, just an observation.

[johnnysd]

That leaves the Forsaken of which all can be eliminated except Graendal(Lanfear falls to lack of evidence IMO).

 

This is the entirety of the Graendal argument. Truth is, that there is the same lack of evidence for Graendal as for Lanfear, but the lack of any knowledge of Graendal's whereabouts is twisted into evidence FOR Graendal. There is no real evidence. Graendal being the killer requires just as many assumptions as Lanfear. She is purely the multiple choice elimination suspect that people then create explanations for, with huge assumptions.

 

On the other hand, there is evidence for Lanfear:

 

1. She said she would kill him

2. He is thinking of Lanfear right before being killed. The You with a question mark is important in context with his thoughts. He is totally shocked to see Lanfear.

 

Jordan said the killer is obvious, not the how. Lanfear at that point is obvious. Only later you say to yourself, wait she's in Finnland, how did she....

 

There is also strong evidence against Graendal. In the encounter with Cyndane and Moghedien, Graendal fights by using compulsion. It is logical she would have tried the same with Asmo.

 

It may turn our to be Graendal. But there is no more evidence or logicality for her than Lanfear.