Moiraine, Siuan, and the Oath

[Skipp]

51 minutes ago, Andra said:

The agenda isn't remotely "secret."  Rafe has stated it publicly on many occasions.  Including when discussing the changes he made to Moiraine and Siuan's relationship.

 

He has also stated that he intended this specific scene to present the equivalent of marriage vows between them.

 

Which makes even more sense when you realize in episode 8 that Moiraine knew from the moment they learned of the threat that she was heading to her death.  I don't imagine there was any universe when Moiraine lets the Dragon walk alone into the Eye.  Giving Moiraine and Suian that scene when they have had to sacrifice any semblance of a personal life for the last 20 years is just very sweet.

 

As for the rest, having Moiraine make the oaths in public is the shaming aspect.  The Hall knows what to expect of the oath to be, presumably, so if they view Moiraine as struggling to keep her voice heard they would figure it to be due to the embarrassment they expect her to be going through.  And as stated previously since the Hall "knows" that Moiraine and Suian are on very poor terms then "know" that if Moiraine changed the vow in anyway they would expect Suian to reprimand her.  But that is just my interpretation of the scene.  Clearly we are not on the same page on this but that is the lovely thing about ointerpretations/opinions. 

 

I am hoping to see some of the fallout from this scene next season.

[Andra]

3 hours ago, Skipp said:

As for the rest, having Moiraine make the oaths in public is the shaming aspect.  The Hall knows what to expect of the oath to be, presumably, so if they view Moiraine as struggling to keep her voice heard they would figure it to be due to the embarrassment they expect her to be going through.  And as stated previously since the Hall "knows" that Moiraine and Suian are on very poor terms then "know" that if Moiraine changed the vow in anyway they would expect Suian to reprimand her.  But that is just my interpretation of the scene.  Clearly we are not on the same page on this but that is the lovely thing about ointerpretations/opinions. 

 

I am hoping to see some of the fallout from this scene next season.

And in the Hall of the Tower as it is depicted in the books, "she must be embarassed, so it doesn't matter that we can't hear what she said" would never have been acceptable.  The Hall was extremely protective of their position, and no one was more suspicious of what an Aes Sedai was trying to get away with than another Aes Sedai.

 

Anything that happened in the Hall was witnessed completely by everyone in the Hall.  No Sitter would ever allow someone to mumble through a public oath there, no matter how ashamed they might be.  On more than one occasion, we see Sitters admonishing people to speak clearly when addressing them there.  Nor would Sitters (who already jealously defend their balance of power against the Amyrlin) simply trust the Amyrlin to tell them what was said.  

 

Sitters demand to know everything that is going on.  This doesn't fit them at all.

[Elder_Haman]

4 hours ago, Andra said:

If the Sitters didn't need to hear the Oath clearly, there was no need for it to be spoken in front of them

Yes there is. She needs to be seen swearing on the oath rod. 
 

But you are correct that the purpose of the scene was explicitly to show the depth of the Moiraine/Siuan relationship and give it the feel of a wedding. 

[DojoToad]

4 hours ago, Andra said:

And in the Hall of the Tower as it is depicted in the books, "she must be embarassed, so it doesn't matter that we can't hear what she said" would never have been acceptable.  The Hall was extremely protective of their position, and no one was more suspicious of what an Aes Sedai was trying to get away with than another Aes Sedai.

 

Anything that happened in the Hall was witnessed completely by everyone in the Hall.  No Sitter would ever allow someone to mumble through a public oath there, no matter how ashamed they might be.  On more than one occasion, we see Sitters admonishing people to speak clearly when addressing them there.  Nor would Sitters (who already jealously defend their balance of power against the Amyrlin) simply trust the Amyrlin to tell them what was said.  

 

Sitters demand to know everything that is going on.  This doesn't fit them at all.

Absolutely, but the show is not the books - as we found with each successive episode.

[Raal Gurniss]

12 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Absolutely, but the show is not the books - as we found with each successive episode.

Which makes you wonder why they bothered to buy the rights, why not just make an entire new product.

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Which makes you wonder why they bothered to buy the rights, why not just make an entire new product.

• Because they wanted to bring in the fanbase.
• But there aren't enough fans to support the show.
• The show needs to appeal to those that haven't read the books.
• So a lot of changes unrelated to adapting from page to screen need made.
• Will alienate a lot of fans.
• Why did we buy the rights?  Could have had more episodes...
• Should have made an entirely new product.

Edited June 10, 2022 by DojoToad

[Mailman]

3 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Which makes you wonder why they bothered to buy the rights, why not just make an entire new product.

Because when you produce CW level tripe you need to attach a popular IP with a existing fanbase to try and make money.

[Dagon Thyne]

 I don't know why people equate these 2 oaths.

 

 Elaida wanted all Aes Sedai To swear  fealty to her And to  Obey her every comman   Such an oath would have literally made her an absolute power Without any balances from Even the hall of the tower.   She could have Literally ordered the hall of the tower to change tower law to whatever she wanted it changed to even if it meant passing the law that says she could never be deposed.  

 

 That is very different from the oath that moraine swears in the show which is that she will accept a possibly permanent exile and will only return to the tower when commanded by the Sivan.  

 

 I am not sure how anyone would ever see that These 2 oaths are anywhere near being the same.

 

 

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

 I don't know why people equate these 2 oaths.

 

 Elaida wanted all Aes Sedai To swear  fealty to her And to  Obey her every comman   Such an oath would have literally made her an absolute power Without any balances from Even the hall of the tower.   She could have Literally ordered the hall of the tower to change tower law to whatever she wanted it changed to even if it meant passing the law that says she could never be deposed.  

 

 That is very different from the oath that moraine swears in the show which is that she will accept a possibly permanent exile and will only return to the tower when commanded by the Sivan.  

 

 I am not sure how anyone would ever see that These 2 oaths are anywhere near being the same.

 

 

Because neither had ever been done before - as far as anyone will admit.

[Dagon Thyne]

18 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Because neither had ever been done before - as far as anyone will admit.

 2 things never having been done before does not make them the same thing.   People are claiming that the oes would literally do The same thing which is not true.

 

 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

 2 things never having been done before does not make them the same thing.   People are claiming that the oes would literally do The same thing which is not true.

 

 

I didn't claim they were the same thing - but they have similarities:

• Sworn oaths involving Amyrlin
• Never done before - as far as we know
• Aes Sedai ceding power
• Considered scandalous

So while not the same thing there were enough similarities that might confuse the casual reader/watcher.

[Dagon Thyne]

13 hours ago, DojoToad said:

I didn't claim they were the same thing - but they have similarities:

• Sworn oaths involving Amyrlin
• Never done before - as far as we know
• Aes Sedai ceding power
• Considered scandalous

So while not the same thing there were enough similarities that might confuse the casual reader/watcher.

OK, again, the oath does completely different things.  

 

All Aes Sedai are already sworn to obey even if it's not an official  oath under the oath rod.  What Suian did was to make that oath officially, but in a very limited way, with the only outcomiong being that Moiraine would not be able to try to return to the tower.  

 

What Elaida wanted could have all Aes Sedai swear absolute fealty to her personally, not to the Amylin Seat, or to the Tower, but her.

 

If you're entire argument is that the oaths are both sworn to a sitting Amylin, I would have to question how you come to the conclusion  that the two oaths would be confusing..  I am pretty sure most viewers would see the oaths as so different in nature that the fact that they are both technically sworn to a sitting Amylin would be a non-issue.  

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Dagon Thyne

[DojoToad]

47 minutes ago, Dagon Thyne said:

 I am pretty sure most viewers would see the oaths as so different in nature that the fact that they are both technically sworn to a sitting Amylin would be a non-issue.  

 

I am pretty sure most viewers haven’t read the books and don’t know of Elaida’s oath. So in the end this really doesn’t matter unless the show chooses to address it at some point. 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Dagon Thyne said:

OK, again, the oath does completely different things. 

Yes, that is pretty obvious.   But it doesn't mean they can't have things in common.

[Scarloc99]

The Oath Rod scene was there to show the Oath Rod that is talked about so much in the books. Again showing something important, now, we might not agree with the creative decisions around that scene (another thing I am not 100% on), but it is understandable why in season 1 Rafe wanted to set the foundation blocks of the important world building elements. 

So in season 1 Rafe has shown.

The Age of Legends was High Tech
What the Aes Sedai are about politically
The Oath Rod 
What the Bond is about 
Shadar Logath
Tar Valon
White Cloaks
The idea of a multiverse
TheTel'aran'rhiod (I think we will find this is where Morraine and Siuan met)  
The fact Rand is the Dragon 
Rands backstory (and through that the first glimpse of an aiel in battle) 
The Male and Female halves
Seanchan (in the final scene) 
The Forsaken (having met 1 of them) 
Burning out 

I imagine I have missed a load off of there, but, those where the important things that the viewer had to experience/learn about to set the scene for the world. A TV series is not like the books, you can't have concepts and ideas drop in book 5 you have to set the rues out early so when stuff happens later viewers don't feel cheated or that the writers are making up stuff to get the hero out of trouble. 

The fact is that Book 1 does not cover a lot of those things, in fact book 1 barely scratches the surface of lore and world building and that is great for a 13 books series, and it is also great given then RJ obv didn't know where his story was going exactly or what ideas and lore he would discover in the world as he went on that journey. But it is not good for a TV show where the screen writers clearly need to define those things early on. 
 

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, Sir_Charrid said:

The Oath Rod scene was there to show the Oath Rod that is talked about so much in the books. Again showing something important, now, we might not agree with the creative decisions around that scene (another thing I am not 100% on), but it is understandable why in season 1 Rafe wanted to set the foundation blocks of the important world building elements. 

So in season 1 Rafe has shown.

The Age of Legends was High Tech
What the Aes Sedai are about politically
The Oath Rod 
What the Bond is about 
Shadar Logath
Tar Valon
White Cloaks
The idea of a multiverse
TheTel'aran'rhiod (I think we will find this is where Morraine and Siuan met)  
The fact Rand is the Dragon 
Rands backstory (and through that the first glimpse of an aiel in battle) 
The Male and Female halves
Seanchan (in the final scene) 
The Forsaken (having met 1 of them) 
Burning out 

I imagine I have missed a load off of there, but, those where the important things that the viewer had to experience/learn about to set the scene for the world. A TV series is not like the books, you can't have concepts and ideas drop in book 5 you have to set the rues out early so when stuff happens later viewers don't feel cheated or that the writers are making up stuff to get the hero out of trouble. 

The fact is that Book 1 does not cover a lot of those things, in fact book 1 barely scratches the surface of lore and world building and that is great for a 13 books series, and it is also great given then RJ obv didn't know where his story was going exactly or what ideas and lore he would discover in the world as he went on that journey. But it is not good for a TV show where the screen writers clearly need to define those things early on. 
 

I agree with most - except for the bolded.  Why can't a show drop in new stuff several seasons in.  As long as it doesn't go against what is already established in previous seasons, I don't see why it can't be accepted just as a reader does the new material in books.  It just needs to be done well so it doesn't feel like a cheat.

 

Plus, we may not have known about the oath rod early on in the book, but we did know about the oaths.  Easy to accept because the base was there.

Edited November 29, 2022 by DojoToad

[DigificWriter]

18 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

TheTel'aran'rhiod (I think we will find this is where Morraine and Siuan met) 

 

This interpretation has already been officially invalidated because it's been repeatedly stated by all involved with the series that Moiraine and Siuan physically traveled to a fishing hut in Tear by way of paired gateway ter'angreal.

[Skipp]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

 

This interpretation has already been officially invalidated because it's been repeatedly stated by all involved with the series that Moiraine and Siuan physically traveled to a fishing hut in Tear by way of paired gateway ter'angreal.

Source?

 

My memory tells me that they said it specifically wasn't Tel-aran'rhiod but didn't confirm anything further.  People then jumped to a dreamshard as a theory instead.  But I don't remember anyone stating that the location that they went to was an actual physical location.

[DigificWriter]

10 hours ago, Skipp said:

Source?

 

My memory tells me that they said it specifically wasn't Tel-aran'rhiod but didn't confirm anything further.  People then jumped to a dreamshard as a theory instead.  But I don't remember anyone stating that the location that they went to was an actual physical location.

 

Upon reflection I may have imagined Rafe and others actually stating that Siuan and Moiraine physically went to a hut in Tear, but we did have confirmation/clarification on that point from official bonus content released by Amazon, and that bonus content info is consistent with the way the scene is set up and presented onscreen.

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Upon reflection I may have imagined Rafe and others actually stating that Siuan and Moiraine physically went to a hut in Tear, but we did have confirmation/clarification on that point from official bonus content released by Amazon, and that bonus content info is consistent with the way the scene is set up and presented onscreen.

Well we may find out more soon.

 

 

[Dagon Thyne]

On 11/29/2022 at 4:24 AM, DojoToad said:

Yes, that is pretty obvious.   But it doesn't mean they can't have things in common.

Having something in common isn't the same as having the same overall impact on the story, which is what people were claiming.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Dagon Thyne

[DojoToad]

3 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Having something in common isn't the same as having the same overall impact on the story,

 

 

Correct.

 

3 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

 

 

which is what people were claiming.

 

My point wasn't addressing what people were or weren't claiming.  I was addressing you saying they are completely different.  They aren't.  They have several things in common which I listed.

 

The impact can be seen as subjective.  You are seeing them as completely different because the purpose of the oaths are different.  I'm seeing them as similar (not the same) because of what they have in common.  Similar, because 'wow' Aes Sedai have not done something like this before - so even though they have different purposes, I am comfortable putting them both in the 'same' category of similar events.  A big impact for Aes Sedai regardless of intended purpose.

[Dagon Thyne]

20 hours ago, DojoToad said:

Correct.

 

My point wasn't addressing what people were or weren't claiming.  I was addressing you saying they are completely different.  They aren't.  They have several things in common which I listed.

 

The impact can be seen as subjective.  You are seeing them as completely different because the purpose of the oaths are different.  I'm seeing them as similar (not the same) because of what they have in common.  Similar, because 'wow' Aes Sedai have not done something like this before - so even though they have different purposes, I am comfortable putting them both in the 'same' category of similar events.  A big impact for Aes Sedai regardless of intended purpose.

Actually, I was pointing out that people who say that the two oaths would have the same impact were wrong, and that any similarities between them are completely incirmunstial.  It's like saying that a car and a plane are the same thing becaise they both carry people and are used for transportation.    

[DojoToad]

2 hours ago, Dagon Thyne said:

Actually, I was pointing out that people who say that the two oaths would have the same impact were wrong, and that any similarities between them are completely incirmunstial.  It's like saying that a car and a plane are the same thing becaise they both carry people and are used for transportation.    

You are correct, they will both get you from Cleveland to Detroit...

[Dagon Thyne]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

You are correct, they will both get you from Cleveland to Detroit...

Yes, but the overall impact of each were very different.