A couple of endgame questions

[Rogue One]

Hello! 
 

The TV show has prompted me to re-read vita of the series for the first time in ages while I was at my parents’ for the holidays. And I realised I have a fair few questions about the ending of the series, and I thought I’d pop round and ask!

 

1) We know the Bore is drilled in the AOL and sealed by Rand in AMOL. Do we then know the DO is active in the world only between these two events (and subsequent turnings), or whether the DO also gets freed / is active in eg the fifth age? i guess if the former it would make Tarmon Gai’don actually the LAST battle against the DO (though of course no beginnings or endings etc) 

 

2) slightly linked to the above is the nature of the Dragon. LTT was a powerful channeled and fought the DO in AOL. 
He then re-spawns as Rand in the third age. But Rand has a) the channeling ability and memories of LTT b)reality warping abilities. In the end it is b) that really matters to the endgame, but is that in any way related to a) (ie did LTT also have this ability), or are the two things (Rand being LTT reborn; and Rand having messianic reality warping powers) unrelated? 
 

3) is a turning where the DO wins possible / do we think it has happened?

 

 

thanks to anyone who’ll take the time to read / respond!

 

 

 

[EmreY]

On the overall nature of the reality-bending powers, IMO Rand seems to function as a restore-from-backup program rather than a new patch.

 

"did LTT also have this ability" I don't think anyone can know, but if I had to guess, yes.  But remember he was completely insane by the end, so how does a backup work if it is itself corrupted?  Maybe not at all.

 

"is a turning where the DO wins outright possible / do we think it has happened?" No to both.

 

 

Edited January 1, 2022 by EmreY

[Finnssss22]

On 12/31/2021 at 5:36 PM, Rogue One said:

 

1) We know the Bore is drilled in the AOL and sealed by Rand in AMOL. Do we then know the DO is active in the world only between these two events (and subsequent turnings), or whether the DO also gets freed / is active in eg the fifth age? i guess if the former it would make Tarmon Gai’don actually the LAST battle against the DO (though of course no beginnings or endings etc) 

 

 

 

 

 

RJ said the DO is not active in all Ages but didn't specify if the 3rd and 4th Ages are the only ones.

He also said that Channeling is not a thing in all Ages. Not that people can't Channel, it's that they can't sense or access the One Power.

I have always theorized that the world is basically one giant Ogier Stedding in such an Age or Ages. 

[Sabio]

The DO isn't active in all ages, what happens is eventually the world has to forget the DO exists.  So when the time comes, no one has any idea that the new power they detect and try to drill into is really the DO.

[Andra]

1) There is strong implication that while the Dark One may not be able to directly touch the world when his prison is intact, he can still influence humans who are kindred spirits.  This is essentially what started the War of Power in the first place.  Mierin was a researcher who was either deceived by the DO or decided on her own to drill into his prison.  So his influence obviously came into play even though most had forgotten he existed.

It's possible that it takes so long to forget him that the Second and Third Ages are the only ones where he gets the opportunity to act directly.

2) The Dragon is the Creator's champion.  In ages where channeling is effective, the champion would be a powerful channeler.  In ages where there is no channeling, he would be powerful at whatever takes its place.  Perhaps in the Fifth Age he's a nuclear physicist?

Rand's "reality warping" abilities are a function of him being ta'veren.  It's just that most TV can't consciously control it.  Hawkwing had learned to make use of it, but didn't have conscious control.  Rand basically figured out how during his revelation at the top of Dragonmount.  After inklings that he had already gathered (see his threat to Cadsuane).

LTT was also TV, but may not have ever learned that control.  Just like Rand learned to access the True Power, but LTT apparently never did.

They are related because both were TV.  But I don't think it's any more directly related than that.

3) Nothing in the lore requires the DO to never win, but I think RJ made pretty clear that he never had.

[EmreY]

13 hours ago, Andra said:

Rand basically figured out how during his revelation at the top of Dragonmount.

 

I'm not sure if it's conscious control, though he certainly seems to believe it.  I wonder if instead, (a) at that particular point in the turning of the Wheel, (b) with the Pattern under the greatest threat of unravelling, and (c) with a ta'veren comfortable in his skin (tool accepting his destiny), and (d) for a limited amount of time only, a sort of über-ta'verenness comes into being?  I.e. anyone not an active darkfriend would find him impossible to resist?

Edited January 8, 2022 by EmreY

[Andra]

8 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

I'm not sure if it's conscious control, though he certainly seems to believe it.  I wonder if instead, (a) at that particular point in the turning of the Wheel, (b) with the Pattern under the greatest threat of unravelling, and (c) with a ta'veren comfortable in his skin (tool accepting his destiny), and (d) for a limited amount of time only, a sort of über-ta'verenness comes into being?  I.e. anyone not an active darkfriend would find him impossible to resist?

No, it was definitely conscious control.

The very first scene as he descends from Dragonmount shows it.  He makes the apples grow in the orchard, and knows they're coming before the farmer even sees them.  Later, he is described as concentrating when he makes the tree grow outside of the Council tent where all the commanders have gathered.

 

Clearly he's doing it consciously and intentionally.

 

I do believe it was a matter of him finally accepting his position at this turning of the Wheel.  But I also believe it stays with him after everything is done. 

Spoiler

It's the best explanation for how he lost his ability to channel after switching bodies with Moridin, but could still light his pipe.

 

[EmreY]

I can't agree, I'm afraid.  Knowing something beforehand is not the same as causing it.

 

IIRC, the one place where he explicitly states that he can cause something is when he basically tells Cadsuane he can stop her heart just by thinking about it.

 

And since the point of ta'verenness is to correct errors in the Pattern, I don't think Rand is ta'veren at the end. Mat and Perrin are not, canonically, and there is no reason to assume that Rand is (or at least to the degree he was before the encounter with the Dark One, i.e. the degree at which the world bends around him).

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by EmreY

[Jaysen Gore]

On 12/31/2021 at 5:36 PM, Rogue One said:

Hello! 
 

The TV show has prompted me to re-read vita of the series for the first time in ages while I was at my parents’ for the holidays. And I realised I have a fair few questions about the ending of the series, and I thought I’d pop round and ask!

 

1) We know the Bore is drilled in the AOL and sealed by Rand in AMOL. Do we then know the DO is active in the world only between these two events (and subsequent turnings), or whether the DO also gets freed / is active in eg the fifth age? i guess if the former it would make Tarmon Gai’don actually the LAST battle against the DO (though of course no beginnings or endings etc) 

 

2) slightly linked to the above is the nature of the Dragon. LTT was a powerful channeled and fought the DO in AOL. 
He then re-spawns as Rand in the third age. But Rand has a) the channeling ability and memories of LTT b)reality warping abilities. In the end it is b) that really matters to the endgame, but is that in any way related to a) (ie did LTT also have this ability), or are the two things (Rand being LTT reborn; and Rand having messianic reality warping powers) unrelated? 
 

3) is a turning where the DO wins possible / do we think it has happened?

 

 

thanks to anyone who’ll take the time to read / respond!

1. Here from the First Age, we know that the power of the Great Lord of the Dark, Prince of Darkness and Lord of the Morning has a massive influence over the world.  But I do not believe he is able to touch it directly. And Darkfriends are still fools.

 

2. We don't know if LTT gained this power, because after failing in his duty to protect his family, he decided to pick up the mountain instead, because he thought it was lighter.

 

3. In an infinitely large and infinitely lasting universe, every scenario, no matter how improbable is guaranteed to happen. So either he has won in the past, or will do so in the future. 

 

My take:

1 - Adam and Eve / founding mythos / tree of knowledge until the discovery of channelling / arrival of Ogier

2 - The "Age of Legends" - from the discovery of channelling to the sealing of the DO's prison

3 - Randland Age - from Sealing of the prison, until the remaking of the prison

4 - Science emergent - From the remaking of the prison until the death of the last channeller

5 - Science alone - replacement of channelling and expansion into new frontiers until a catastrophic event, departure of Ogier

6 - The long decline - Humanity loses all of it's knowledge, through attrition, war, and environmental cataclysm

7 - The animalistic age - humanity in an ignorant state of survival, having lost even the memory of knowledge. the world erases previous era's physical landmarks

 

Mankind has direct knowledge of the DO in Ages 2-5, he is directly influential in 2 and 3, something to be cleaned up after in 4, and a child's fairy tale in 5, before being forgotten. The concept of "an Adversary" is reintroduced in the first age, but it is not until the end of the second that we discover he is in fact real as measured in scientific terms.

 

And just for fun; there is nothing in the lore that says that "humanity" needs to be homo sapien sapiens in each turning. so it's possible that the entire sentient species is wiped out at the end of 6, and it's not until a new one evolves across 7 that the wheel begins again. Which would give the wheel an evolutionary duration to eradicate the impact of a previous turning on the landscape, environment, natural resources, radioactives, and the like.

[Andra]

20 hours ago, EmreY said:

I can't agree, I'm afraid.  Knowing something beforehand is not the same as causing it.

 

IIRC, the one place where he explicitly states that he can cause something is when he basically tells Cadsuane he can stop her heart just by thinking about it.

 

And since the point of ta'verenness is to correct errors in the Pattern, I don't think Rand is ta'veren at the end. Mat and Perrin are not, canonically, and there is no reason to assume that Rand is (or at least to the degree he was before the encounter with the Dark One, i.e. the degree at which the world bends around him).

 

Except that in at least some of these things, he clearly doesn't just know it beforehand.

The tree outside the tent, for example - that was him actively causing something to happen, not just knowing about it.

And I really don't find any explanation for what he's able to do at the end, given that we are specifically told it wasn't channeling.

 

Basically it means that he has gained a tiny bit of the Creator's ability, and can directly manipulate the Pattern itself.  And a big part of his epiphany was learning that in order to make things right, he has to innately understand what that is.  So he can't (or won't) abuse this new power.  But prior to his epiphany he could (and would).  As his threat to Cadsuane would have been.

[EmreY]

I think your explanation for what happens after his death is as valid as anyone else's.

 

But since ta'veren are tools of the Wheel, not the other way around, it wouldn't be my favourite explanation.  Moreover, my comment regarding foreknowledge not being the same as causing something does not mean I think that a lack of knowledge would imply causation.

 

As for the trees, as Rand says, things have become so lopsided in favour of the Dark One towards the end, that the ta'veren dice is loaded.  Perhaps the plain of Merrilor needed some trees?

[DaddyFinn]

On 1/8/2022 at 11:16 PM, Andra said:

No, it was definitely conscious control.

The very first scene as he descends from Dragonmount shows it.  He makes the apples grow in the orchard, and knows they're coming before the farmer even sees them.  Later, he is described as concentrating when he makes the tree grow outside of the Council tent where all the commanders have gathered.

 

Clearly he's doing it consciously and intentionally.

 

I do believe it was a matter of him finally accepting his position at this turning of the Wheel.  But I also believe it stays with him after everything is done. 

  Reveal hidden contents

It's the best explanation for how he lost his ability to channel after switching bodies with Moridin, but could still light his pipe.

 

 

"Gather those apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from his touch."

 

I see why @EmreY doesn't think this is conscious. I could take it either way.

[Andra]

2 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

 

"Gather those apples quickly. My presence will hold him off for a time, I think, and whatever you take now should be safe from his touch."

 

I see why @EmreY doesn't think this is conscious. I could take it either way.

If it were only that, I would agree.

But similar things happen multiple times after that, with each example including an awareness that's beyond simply knowing something is coming.  He talks about being able to feel the life in an area, and the integrity of the earth.  And that it's his duty to "make things right."  And even in that passage, he specifically states that it's happening because he's there.

 

The grove of Great Trees that grew in five minutes outside the council tent at Merillor is far more than just something that happened because it could.  Same with the ship full of supplies that were suddenly all pristine because he was there, when every container that had previously been opened was rotten.  It only makes sense that he made these things happen intentionally.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Andra

[EmreY]

20 minutes ago, Andra said:

If it were only that, I would agree.

But it similar things happen multiple times, with each example including an awareness that's beyond simply knowing something is coming.  He talks about being able to feel the life in an area, and the integrity of the ground.  And that it's his duty to "make things right."  And even in that passage, he specifically states that it's happening because he's there.

 

The grove of Great Trees that grew in five minutes outside the council tent at Merillor is far more than just something that happened because it could.  It only makes sense that he made it happen intentionally.

 

I'm heavy and if I decide to walk on ice that's formed on a lake, the ice might well crack.

 

Yes, I would be the reason why that's happened, but it wouldn't be because I willed it to.  I think the same sort of thing applied in every instance Rand turned up, the most funny being when Rand turns up at the White Tower.  At that point, what's necessary for the Wheel is for the DR to get everyone on board - or at least to meet at Merrilor - not argue.  So Egwene can speak (not because she knows Rand from before) but because some sort of interaction is necessary.  However, everyone else's tongues are glued to their mouths.  And that's also why I think that Rand has no problem with being shielded; if the shield became an impediment to the Wheel's mission, the channellers following him around would trip, have heart attacks, sneeze, etc. ? And by that point Rand has accepted what needs to happen; the Wheel will sweep anything non-DO-related out of his way.

 

This of course begs the question of why everyone doesn't agree with Rand immediately when he unveils his three point plan at Merrilor.  Well, Rand would certainly want them to agree, and if he were consciously altering reality, they would have.  But what is being discussed - as IIRC Egwene points out - is the course of the next age.  And, at that point, Rand has no ta'veren-relevance to that.  Except maybe for the peace bit, and that Moiraine points out is a symmetry of the pattern.  And the seals?  She gets to the point where she is prepared to break them, without Rand being around.

 

As for the trees at Merrilor, maybe the Wheel wanted to say hi to its Ogier guests?  But IIR the scene correctly, Egwene reacts to their springing up (it becomes darker in the tent, there are sounds coming from outside) but Rand doesn't seem to.  IIRC, that is.

Edited January 10, 2022 by EmreY

[EmreY]

 And this discussion is one of the reasons I love Fantasy. ?  Thank you, OP and others. ? 

[Andra]

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I'm heavy and if I decide to walk on ice that's formed on a lake, the ice might well crack.

 

Yes, I would be the reason why that's happened, but it wouldn't be because I willed it to.  I think the same sort of thing applied in every instance Rand turned up, the most funny being when Rand turns up at the White Tower.  At that point, what's necessary for the Wheel is for the DR to get everyone on board - or at least to meet at Merrilor - not argue.  So Egwene can speak (not because she knows Rand from before) but because some sort of interaction is necessary.  However, everyone else's tongues are glued to their mouths.  And that's also why I think that Rand has no problem with being shielded; if the shield became an impediment to the Wheel's mission, the channellers following him around would trip, have heart attacks, sneeze, etc. ? And by that point Rand has accepted what needs to happen; the Wheel will sweep anything non-DO-related out of his way.

 

This of course begs the question of why everyone doesn't agree with Rand immediately when he unveils his three point plan at Merrilor.  Well, Rand would certainly want them to agree, and if he were consciously altering reality, they would have.  But what is being discussed - as IIRC Egwene points out - is the course of the next age.  And, at that point, Rand has no ta'veren-relevance to that.  Except maybe for the peace bit, and that Moiraine points out is a symmetry of the pattern.

 

As for the trees at Merrilor, maybe the Wheel wanted to say hi to its Ogier guests?  But IIR the scene correctly, Egwene reacts to their springing up (it becomes darker in the tent, there are sounds coming from outside) but Rand doesn't seem to.  IIRC, that is.

I see where you're coming from.  And I think it may just be a matter of interpretation.

 

If you know that your weight will cause the ice to crack, and you step on the ice anyway, did you intentionally make the ice crack or not?  If you release an object you're holding over someone's head, knowing that gravity will make it land on them if you let it go, did you make it hit them or not?

 

It's clear from the examples that it's his presence making things happen.  If he knows what his presence is doing, and takes specific actions that allow his presence to do what it does, is it really meaningful to say that it wasn't him doing it?  Or is it a distinction without a difference?

 

And regarding him influencing the decisions of people he wanted to agree with him:  Elayne remarks to herself that they agreed with her being made the leader of their combined forces without much argument - because he was there.  But once he's no longer present, they start pulling back.  So she has to push before they start thinking about it.  So he really did get them to agree to something he wanted them to do regarding his plan.

But as just making everyone fall over and go along with him on everything - he knew he needed their true judgments and acceptance.  He knew from LTT's memories of the War of Power that they needed the best possible plan, not just HIS plan.  So he didn't want to force their agreement.

 

And in a very real way, it's the examples of when he DOESN'T just get his way that indicates he can either choose to make it happen, or choose not to.

[EmreY]

Good points. ? I'll have to think on that a little.

[Andra]

37 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 And this discussion is one of the reasons I love Fantasy. ?  Thank you, OP and others. ? 

And I definitely agree with you on this.

Though I would clarify *GOOD* Fantasy.

 

Thorough world-building, with internally consistent rules, makes it all worthwhile.

[VooDooNut]

On 12/31/2021 at 4:36 PM, Rogue One said:

Hello! 
 

The TV show has prompted me to re-read vita of the series for the first time in ages while I was at my parents’ for the holidays. And I realised I have a fair few questions about the ending of the series, and I thought I’d pop round and ask!

 

1) We know the Bore is drilled in the AOL and sealed by Rand in AMOL. Do we then know the DO is active in the world only between these two events (and subsequent turnings), or whether the DO also gets freed / is active in eg the fifth age? i guess if the former it would make Tarmon Gai’don actually the LAST battle against the DO (though of course no beginnings or endings etc) 

 

2) slightly linked to the above is the nature of the Dragon. LTT was a powerful channeled and fought the DO in AOL. 
He then re-spawns as Rand in the third age. But Rand has a) the channeling ability and memories of LTT b)reality warping abilities. In the end it is b) that really matters to the endgame, but is that in any way related to a) (ie did LTT also have this ability), or are the two things (Rand being LTT reborn; and Rand having messianic reality warping powers) unrelated? 
 

3) is a turning where the DO wins possible / do we think it has happened?

 

 

thanks to anyone who’ll take the time to read / respond!

 

 

 

 

1) I'd side with the idea the DO is always present, but his influence on the Pattern in all other ages is severely diminished. But he never goes away completely.

 

2) I like to think LTT did have some amount of reality-warping powers by the end of his life. It justifies why seemingly everyone would know of him and remember his actions, as well as fear his rebirth. I think LTT and madness/taint become an issue for Rand in the 3rd Age because he has to deal with the trauma/past and feelings of LTT on top of his own doubts on top of all the stuff he has to take on. He thinks he has to do this mostly alone for most of the series, which leads to its own issues, but my point is that the taint really almost screwed things up for the Dragon in the 3rd Ag because it was a major counterstroke/disruption to the purpose of the Dragon in the Pattern.  But when Rand overcomes the taint in Veins Of Gold, we finally see, for the first time, what a Dragon without unbearable burden looks like. Burdensome responsibility, yes, but not to the point of breaking Rand. And then he can get to work. 

 

28 minutes ago, Andra said:

I see where you're coming from.  And I think it may just be a matter of interpretation.

 

If you know that your weight will cause the ice to crack, and you step on the ice anyway, did you intentionally make the ice crack or not?  If you release an object you're holding over someone's head, knowing that gravity will make it land on them if you let it go, did you make it hit them or not?

 

It's clear from the examples that it's his presence making things happen.  If he knows what his presence is doing, and takes specific actions that allow his presence to do what it does, is it really meaningful to say that it wasn't him doing it?  Or is it a distinction without a difference?

 

And regarding him influencing the decisions of people he wanted to agree with him:  Elayne remarks to herself that they agreed with her being made the leader of their combined forces without much argument - because he was there.  But once he's no longer present, they start pulling back.  So she has to push before they start thinking about it.  So he really did get them to agree to something he wanted them to do regarding his plan.

But as just making everyone fall over and go along with him on everything - he knew he needed their true judgments and acceptance.  He knew from LTT's memories of the War of Power that they needed the best possible plan, not just HIS plan.  So he didn't want to force their agreement.

 

And in a very real way, it's the examples of when he DOESN'T just get his way that indicates he can either choose to make it happen, or choose not to.

Reading this got me thinking of Rand as more of a gravitational force on the Pattern, like you said. It's not necessary for him to be conscious or willful of this effect for the force of his presence to be exerted on the Pattern.

 

I just thought of this moment in Robert Jordan's The Shadow Rising:

Chapter 24 Rhuidean

 

Quote

Mat hesitated. To die and live again. That was what they had said. He had no intention of trying to be an Aiel clan chief, though; the Aiel would probably stick spears through him. “We’ll leave it to luck,” he said, pulling the Tar Valon mark from his pocket. “Getting to be my lucky coin. Flame, I go in with you; head, I stay out.” He flipped the gold coin quickly, before Rand could object.
Somehow he missed grabbing it; the mark careened off his fingertips, clinked to the pavement, bounced twice … . And landed on edge.
He glared at Rand accusingly. “Do you do this sort of thing on purpose? Can’t you control it?”
“No.” The coin fell over, showing an ageless woman’s face surrounded by stars. “It looks like you stay out here, Mat.”
“Did you just … ?” He wished Rand would not channel around him.

This shows what happens IMO when two ta'veren "battle for destiny" more or less, but the Dragon still comes out on top, because he's the flaming Dragon. Did Rand channel? Being able to channel on top of being ta'veren is a pretty messianic combination. 

 

I'm rambling, but hopefully some of that is sensible. Great discussion here. ?

[EmreY]

Hmmm.  My interest is piqued by a different matter.  Is that a gold or silver mark? 

Edited January 10, 2022 by EmreY

[Andra]

11 hours ago, EmreY said:

Hmmm.  My interest is piqued by a different matter.  Is that a gold or silver mark? 

If it's the same coin he has used before (which would make sense if he says it's "getting to be my lucky coin") it's gold.

 

From chapter 22 "Out of the Stone" of the same book (before using the portal stone):

"Oh, burn me.  If you're trying to decide ..."  Taking both horses' reins in one hand, he dug a coin from his pocket, a gold Tar Valon mark, and sighed.  "It would be the same coin, wouldn't it."  He rolled the coin across the backs of his fingers.  "I'm ... lucky sometimes, Rand.  Let my luck choose.  Head, the one that points to your right; flame, the other.  What do you say?"

[Rogue One]

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful replies! 
 

My interpretation had been that the “reality warping” ability was distinct from ta’veren and what made Rand the champion, but after reading your replies I am not so sure anymore. Maybe time to re-read a few more bits to investigate! 
 

I feel generally especially when discussing the dream world, RJ hinted at there being a lot more going on to the cosmology of WOT that was ever discussed openly, so some of this stuff may be a mystery we can’t solve!

[Jaysen Gore]

The reality warping thing is the exact opposite of Ta'veren.

 

As Ta'veren, the pattern forces the boys (now with more girl power!) to certain places so it can then bend every other thread around them. The pattern is the cause

 

with the reality warping thing, Rand is where he is, and wishes that something in the pattern changes (pipe from unlit to lit). The pattern is the effect.

[KakitaOCU]

On 12/31/2021 at 3:36 PM, Rogue One said:

1) We know the Bore is drilled in the AOL and sealed by Rand in AMOL. Do we then know the DO is active in the world only between these two events (and subsequent turnings), or whether the DO also gets freed / is active in eg the fifth age? i guess if the former it would make Tarmon Gai’don actually the LAST battle against the DO (though of course no beginnings or endings etc)

 

My take was to look at it like a Metaphysical Tire.  The inside of the tire is the world going through the 7 ages over and over.  The DO is a shark object on the road.  The Tire Hits and drags, cutting from the impact (Bore) to when it's pushed out (Sealing by Rand).  It also explains why the DO never ultimately wins.  From the DO's perspective, outside of time, he only ever attacked creation once.

 

On 12/31/2021 at 3:36 PM, Rogue One said:

2) slightly linked to the above is the nature of the Dragon. LTT was a powerful channeled and fought the DO in AOL. 
He then re-spawns as Rand in the third age. But Rand has a) the channeling ability and memories of LTT b)reality warping abilities. In the end it is b) that really matters to the endgame, but is that in any way related to a) (ie did LTT also have this ability), or are the two things (Rand being LTT reborn; and Rand having messianic reality warping powers) unrelated? 

I don't believe so,  Rand, or rather the Dragon Reborn incarnation is unique for two reasons.
1: The Taint driven madness fully connects him to his past lives.  Something that doesn't occur normally.
2: Rand's reality warping seems to be an occurrence of his being outside the pattern and being able to see it for what it is.  Something he never did as Lews Therin (He even remarks that his final battle is different from when he sealed the bore).

 

On 12/31/2021 at 3:36 PM, Rogue One said:

3) is a turning where the DO wins possible / do we think it has happened?

 

I don't for the reason I said in my question one answer.  I think, from the DO's perspective, time isn't a dimension he exists in but one he perceives like depth, width or length.  From his perspective he only attacked the Wheel once.

 

 

[Rogue One]

Thank you for your answers! I think I am in agreement with you on 1) 

 

Yes the point about the taint being important is a very good one. My thinking overall given everything’s that’s been said in this thread is however that the “Reborn” part of the Dragon is - not that relevant? What makes Rand special is the “reality warping” (whatever the mechanism is exactly), which he doesn’t get from being LTT reborn but just as himself / the champion of the light. LTT’s memories are useful insight what could and couldn’t work in rand’s planning of his endgame, but it seems secondary to the other abilities he has. Even being a super strong channeler seems useful along the way, but not crucial to the endgame?