A couple of endgame questions

[EmreY]

10 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

From his perspective he only attacked the Wheel once.

 

I have a slightly different take.  I think the DO is attacking the Wheel numerous times, but all at once.

Edited January 13, 2022 by EmreY

[Jaysen Gore]

18 hours ago, Rogue One said:

Thank you for your answers! I think I am in agreement with you on 1) 

 

Yes the point about the taint being important is a very good one. My thinking overall given everything’s that’s been said in this thread is however that the “Reborn” part of the Dragon is - not that relevant? What makes Rand special is the “reality warping” (whatever the mechanism is exactly), which he doesn’t get from being LTT reborn but just as himself / the champion of the light. LTT’s memories are useful insight what could and couldn’t work in rand’s planning of his endgame, but it seems secondary to the other abilities he has. Even being a super strong channeler seems useful along the way, but not crucial to the endgame? 

I like this, but there's a small issue - we don't see Rand actively warp reality until after the DO is sealed; the episode with the crops is specifically noted as a Ta'veren rebellion by the pattern in attempt to offset the darkness being introduced from the DO breaking free. It is the opposite of the Scene in Tear (?), where grain rots in the holds of ships immediately.  After Veins of Gold, he is aware of what is happening, so he warns the farmers to harvest, but I never read it as him causing it, per se.

 

And this distinction is important, because otherwise, it robs Rand of his humanity before the conflict with the DO. Him elevating afterwards is a reward for a job well done (like Nakomi), but he met the challenge while fully human - a channelling Ta'veren, sure, but a very human one.

 

In most of these type of stories, where the Immortal Gods choose a mortal champion, the champion's maintenance of their mortality, humanity and morality is generally the key to their victory. Hence, "maybe we come back so we can do better, and love again" from Tam to Rand, and then from Rand to LTT. None of what he could do mattered, who he was did.

[Rogue One]

I don’t have the books with me at the moment so can’t check this - but isn’t what Rand does in his “battle of scenarios” with the DO an application of this ability? 

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Rogue One said:

I don’t have the books with me at the moment so can’t check this - but isn’t what Rand does in his “battle of scenarios” with the DO an application of this ability? 

Never confirmed but I felt that was the start of it.

He literally stepped outside the pattern and saw it the way the DO sees it (And presumably the way the Creator does?)  He then weaves reality to show the scenarios he wants to happen and has the DO do the same.

He comes back changed from that but doesn't really consciously realize it (He is rather busy and then unconscious).  Then we get the pipe seen and it kind of calls back to that earlier reality warping.

[BookLover]

As new to the books, what I have researched is Rand and the other characters have extra protection from The Creator from the DO. The wheel does weave what the wheel wills. And since I am in book four, the major characters are grappling with the idea of free will. From my studies, we must never inhibit free will when supporting others--that is why Moraine, Lan, and Thom are tight-lipped because that is how the wheel weaves. Life is truly about choices not answers.

[EmreY]

@BookLover If you stay in this thread, you're going to see a lot of spoilers out in the open.

[Red Eagle]

On 12/31/2021 at 5:36 PM, Rogue One said:

 Is a turning where the DO wins possible / do we think it has happened?

 

Thanks to anyone who’ll take the time to read / respond!

On 12/31/2021 at 5:36 PM, Rogue One said:

This question is at the heart of Elan Tedronai's/Ishamael's/Moridin's motivation for turning to the Shadow.

 

Alone among the Forsaken, Elan didn't go over to the Dark One for the sake of ambition or a desire to smash the status quo for prohibiting his desired behavior. Instead, it was due to his being the preeminent scholar of metaphysics during his Age. Ishamael reasoned that in an infinite number of turnings on the part of the Wheel, the Dark One was bound to eventually escape. Essentially, one victory by the Dark One would be an eternal victory for the Shadow, whereas a victory for the Light just reset the clock, and gave the DO another chance to escape once the Age of Legends came round again.

 

The critical detail that Moridin missed, the one that Rand finally grasped atop Dragonmount, as the world's doom hung by a fraying thread, is that every possible permutation of concrete cause and effect had already been played out between the Light and the Shadow. The only thing that EVER changes, is how the reincarnated people think, feel, and act in the role that they play within their turning. 

 

The Wheel turns to give everyone a chance to correct past mistakes, and come closer to becoming their perfected self. That's why Rand could be absolutely confident in making the blanket statement to Shai'tan "So long as humanity does not kneel to you, we will always win. That's why you try to break us, rather than simply killing us when the opportunity presents itself. You need us to give up, and we never will. You lose, Shai'tan." 

 

I was paraphrasing there, but that's the gist. Elan looked into Eternity, and saw nothing but inevitability. Rand looked into the infinite, and he eventually zeroed in on the blessing afforded by cyclical reincarnation. Even the lowest wretch of one turning would always be given the opportunity to be a hero/heroine in the next. That's why the DO claims the souls of his minions. Their ruin is the closest thing to victory he'll ever know. 
 

 

 

[Aan-Alone]

As far as the unexplained crop growth around Ramd...strange that no one considered that he was just Singing [as in the Song of Growing].). He freely admits to as much when he goes to visit Mat and Tuon in Ebou Dar.

 

As far as the other events prior to TG, Ta'veren twisting is most likely. 

[Asthereal]

22 hours ago, Aan-Alone said:

As far as the unexplained crop growth around Ramd...strange that no one considered that he was just Singing [as in the Song of Growing].). He freely admits to as much when he goes to visit Mat and Tuon in Ebou Dar.

 

As far as the other events prior to TG, Ta'veren twisting is most likely. 

 

Huh, I feel like an idiot for not thinking about this. 🤣