S1E8: The Eye of the World v2

[KakitaOCU]

17 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

For you show-Mat is essentially the same as book-Mat? 

 

So i take Bilbo and transform him in a child abuser, as a consequence Frodo is a traumatized youngster on drugs that he buys by stealing from Sam and i can say to be essentially faithful to Tolkien's lotr? Great

Hyperbole much?  

Matt in the book is a generic prankster with no character development for 2.5 books before he becomes a person who wants to be selfish and look out for himself but ultimately is never able to make himself do so.  A man who will not break his word, and a man with a soft spot for children and a kindness that comes out around them even if he's closed off to everyone else.

Mat in season 1 of the show is a man from a rough background who has had to essentially look after and raise his young sisters.  He wants to look out for himself but ultimately keeps going back to help everyone else no matter what the danger is.  He stands by his friends even at his darkest and shows a soft spot for children and a kindness that comes out around them even as he's under the influence of the dagger with everyone else.  To the point that he targets and goes after the fade before Thom can step in.

Your Frodo Example would be if the ring had further corrupted Bilbo making him darker and prone to angry outbursts to the point that Frodo's worried over him and goes to Gandalf having stolen the ring, where in Gandalf sends him on the adventure.   You've changed the character's backstory but kept them the same person.

[DigificWriter]

36 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

Lan is the worst by far for me

 

Brandon Sanderson flat-out said that Daniel Henney's Lan is 100% the Lan that he (Sanderson) wrote in the final 3 WoT books, so you must not have liked the way the character was written in said books.

[Yojimbo]

5 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Brandon Sanderson flat-out said that Daniel Henney's Lan is 100% the Lan that he (Sanderson) wrote in the final 3 WoT books, so you must not have liked the way the character was written in said books.

I personally did not much like any of the Sanderson books, but even if I did, the Lan of the show being the Lan of the last three books in a 14 book series means that they are robbing him of 11 books of growth.

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Brandon Sanderson flat-out said that Daniel Henney's Lan is 100% the Lan that he (Sanderson) wrote in the final 3 WoT books, so you must not have liked the way the character was written in said books.

Their problem is they see static as "accurate" and advancing character development as not matching the character.

Without going into super spoilers or anything since I know you're new to the series.  Books 1-5 Lan is a stoic superman who kills all he comes up against and never shows emotion save a few small moments with Nynaeve where he's still reserved and withdrawn.

Then New Spring hits as a prequel and essentially shows the character we see in the TV series, but that gets rationalized as being 20 years earlier and Lan "Got better" since then.

Then Lan from Books 7-11 Steadily develops into what we see in the series.  Then in the Sanderson books he back slides for no logical reason into "I must suicide charge the blight alone"  where he then goes through the same type of development again but with other people instead of just Nynaeve.

[Wikster]

22 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

 

 

22 hours ago, Skipp said:

Lezbi Nerdy pointed out that the room kinda resembled the Hall of the White Tower.  She theorized it is the Hall of the Servants from the AoL.  Certainly an interesting thought.

 

It is interesting, also the seal being that size sort off makes sense(going forward), does this mean that the current hall of the tower which is a  similar room with a AES sedai symbol center is also a seal? 

The one the egwene breaks at the end?

Current AES sedai perhaps unaware of what it is.

[Ralph]

8 minutes ago, Yojimbo said:

I personally did not much like any of the Sanderson books, but even if I did, the Lan of the show being the Lan of the last three books in a 14 book series means that they are robbing him of 11 books of growth.

I believe he said the Lan in the show is the way he always perceived Lan, and that he wrote him based kn that

 

Not that he only became so later

[WoTwasThat]

23 hours ago, Mirefox said:

Did we ever get any confirmation what, exactly, it was that Rand went to?  They kept calling it the Eye of the World but Moiraine also called it the Dark One’s prison.  We didn’t have a pool of Saidin, no Green Man, no horn, no banner, etc.  I kind of assumed Moiraine was just wrong but the show Eye wasn’t really recognizable as the book Eye.  

“Unreliable narrator” (take a drink). 

Also, not sure why threads are being closed to then start identical threads, but shouldn’t the new thread be pinned instead of the old thread?

 

[WoTwasThat]

23 hours ago, CaddySedai said:

Something of intrigue:

 

The Aes Sedai have either forgotten, or have erased the duality of the Power.

 

Why? Notice in the series we see the Dragons fang used. So the negative aspect lives on. 

 

But where is the Flame? The Aes Sedai do not use the symbol at all. Not even in TV.

 

The first time we see it...and the Duality - in the Eye. A remnant of the AS of old.

 

That’s…. implausible. It’s not like the AS don’t interact with men who can channel. 

[WoTwasThat]

8 hours ago, Mirefox said:

It is quite unfortunate that Amazon very clearly wanted to tap into the GoT popularity and changed the tone of this story in an attempt to do so, thereby setting itself up to be compared to GoT, to which if falls quite short.  Quite a few of those critic reviews bring up GoT and how WoT falls far short in comparison.  I hadn’t read any critics’ reviews up to your post but they are quite enlightening.

I don’t think Amazon was trying to make this like GOT. If so, that was an even more epic failure than trying to make this like WOT. It seems most likely that Amazon was trying to make “a LOTR for women.” I don’t mean that in an offensive way - I’m trying to think like an Amazon exec. 

[WoTwasThat]

6 hours ago, DreadParrot said:

I now officially feel like the meme where the spouse storms back into the room and shouts "And another thing!"

 

Can't shake the aggravation and confusion the finale wrought upon me. My spouse is not a show watcher or a book reader so its falls to the forums...

This is so true. 

[A Memory Of Why]

Anyone else feel like compulsion was also used on Moraine?

 

E.g.  Knotted shield and compulsion.

 

Makes a lot more sense if compulsion was involved.

 

And that little flash from Ishy's hand as he finished channeling makes me think TP.

 

Soooooo..

 

Spoiler

TP Compulsion maybe?

 

Also noticed as Rands "Seal breaking light bomb" was dying down, off to the side is a wierd shimmering.. kinda like a heat / air distortion. ?

[Sunkiss]

Being a non reader and reading readers comments seems that the TV series is a bit choppy and the series need more time to develope the series. Thus the changes and the rushed scenes that some are pointing out. They picked the wrong fantasy book to turn into a TV series. The books seem lengthy and detailed. Dealing with budgets just not going to create what the book described too expensive.

 

I just wished that money was not an issue as well as covid. The idea of the show seems like a good one just a tall task for tv.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Sunkiss

[notpropaganda73]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Fain is a character who needs a massive overhaul anyway, he either needs to die very very soon, or needs to have his final battle with Matt be re worked to actually seem dangerous. In the books he was like the night king from GOT, built up as a massive massive threat right through and then just dies in the first proper fight he has 

 

Well yes, the show has a chance to improve Fain from the books, but so far they've done nothing with him. The whole reveal of him was so out of left field for anyone not looking out for him constantly or following forums like this (I only ever saw the brief Fain appearances and noticed the whistling on rewatches after comments in the episode threads here). They had a chance to really make him a great antagonist, but as things stand he is just some guy. Hopefully that improves in S2. 

[Sunkiss]

8 hours ago, nsmallw said:

Yes, I too was confused by the "Eye" section. I enjoyed the acting but am confused by exactly why they went to there, was it just a plot by Ishy to get the DR there, and what were both Moraine's and Ishy's expectations about what could happen at the Eye.  I've watched the ep. twice and still aren't sure. 

Please help if anyone knows a good breakdown.

I am a non reader but to me it was a plot to get the dragon reborn there. Moraine only went there bc Suiane told her to. Min told her the Amirilyn seat would be her downfall. She is now banished from the tower with no power bc of the Amirilyn Seat. This E8 definitely put a sour taste in my mouth and I know nothing about the book. So tired of Naneyeve with all the power and the rest just look like watchers. Even Moraine whose suppose to be a great Asedai. Looks like a joke.. lol

[fra85uk]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Hyperbole much?  

Matt in the book is a generic prankster with no character development for 2.5 books before he becomes a person who wants to be selfish and look out for himself but ultimately is never able to make himself do so.  A man who will not break his word, and a man with a soft spot for children and a kindness that comes out around them even if he's closed off to everyone else.

Mat in season 1 of the show is a man from a rough background who has had to essentially look after and raise his young sisters.  He wants to look out for himself but ultimately keeps going back to help everyone else no matter what the danger is.  He stands by his friends even at his darkest and shows a soft spot for children and a kindness that comes out around them even as he's under the influence of the dagger with everyone else.  To the point that he targets and goes after the fade before Thom can step in.

Your Frodo Example would be if the ring had further corrupted Bilbo making him darker and prone to angry outbursts to the point that Frodo's worried over him and goes to Gandalf having stolen the ring, where in Gandalf sends him on the adventure.   You've changed the character's backstory but kept them the same person.

I would argue that the context in which you grow strongly determines who you are/become and Given the huge different in background between show-Mat and book-Mat i would say they are two different characters.

 

But this is evident also in the effect of the dagger: in the book you really feel that Mat is changing at U-turn level while in the show the dagger itself is feeding on the pre-existing darkness of Mat

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

I would argue that the context in which you grow strongly determines who you are/become and Given the huge different in background between show-Mat and book-Mat i would say they are two different characters.

 

But this is evident also in the effect of the dagger: in the book you really feel that Mat is changing at U-turn level while in the show the dagger itself is feeding on the pre-existing darkness of Mat

And you're welcome to that feeling, I've seen much more a case of multiple roads can have the same results.  Ultimately Mat feels like Mat to me.  None of his beats or behaviors other than the stuff forced by the actor's departure feel out of place for me.

Ultimately I can only compare TV Mat to Mat from books 3 on, because in books 1 and 2, Mat as a developed and complete character doesn't exist.  He's a one note, two note with the dagger issues, plot device.  Important because we're told he is (Ta'Veren) and because he's important to the character we DO care about (Rand and Perrin)

Edited December 30, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[Khan of Shadows]

5 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

I have't really posted all my thoughts about this episode because it would be pretty pointless.  It was such a mess I wouldn't know where to start or stop.  But one thing.  The Horn.  The box was so small and light that I am now calling it The Kazoo of Valere, because there certainly couldn't be anything much larger inside of that box.   

I'm pretty forgiving of instances where the show gets the small details wrong because I think the big picture stuff is more important, but that box was so s----y looking and obviously weightless that it really brought into focus the extent to which these showrunners are out of their depth. It's a small thing, but a Mystery Science Theater moment like that is just so indefensible and so revealing. 

[fra85uk]

Well, we Have of course different opinions on this. For me, a depressed Mat that robs from townfolk or even the dead is not true to the books.

 

PS of course the change of actor escalated that badly but there were other ways to put him out other than making Mat abandon the group (easy one: still recovering from dagger)

Edited December 30, 2021 by fra85uk

[KakitaOCU]

6 minutes ago, Khan of Shadows said:

I'm pretty forgiving of instances where the show gets the small details wrong because I think the big picture stuff is more important, but that box was so s----y looking and obviously weightless that it really brought into focus the extent to which these showrunners are out of their depth. It's a small thing, but a Mystery Science Theater moment like that is just so indefensible and so revealing. 

I've seen this thought a few times.  Let me ask a question.

What's more durable and stable?  Steel or Plastic?  Just to share a bit, the military has developed a plastic that is 14 times stronger and 8 times lighter than steel.  

The Age of Legends is at minimum a thousand years ahead of us (At minimum, more likely several thousand).  What are they more likely to put the relic in?  A steel case that may rust or die to exposure?  Or a plastic that doesn't break down or wear and provides more protection and defense?

[Gothic Flame]

10 minutes ago, Khan of Shadows said:

It's a small thing, but a Mystery Science Theater moment like that is just so indefensible and so revealing. 

Now there's a good idea!

[Khan of Shadows]

2 hours ago, Yojimbo said:

I personally did not much like any of the Sanderson books, but even if I did, the Lan of the show being the Lan of the last three books in a 14 book series means that they are robbing him of 11 books of growth.

This is where I wonder how much of what's wrong with this show is Rafe vs. the suits. Because the lowest common denominator, lack of faith in the audience present in a lot of their choices has the feel of corporate meddling for me. Perrin hates violence because he killed his wife, Lan has to show more emotion, as if there aren't legions of folks who would be drawn to/inspired by a selfless bad ass stoic samurai, etc. We're constantly being told about the difference between TV vs. books, but a lot of these explanations seem to reflect inside the box thinking/misunderstanding of what people actually want. 

[Khan of Shadows]

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I've seen this thought a few times.  Let me ask a question.

What's more durable and stable?  Steel or Plastic?  Just to share a bit, the military has developed a plastic that is 14 times stronger and 8 times lighter than steel.  

The Age of Legends is at minimum a thousand years ahead of us (At minimum, more likely several thousand).  What are they more likely to put the relic in?  A steel case that may rust or die to exposure?  Or a plastic that doesn't break down or wear and provides more protection and defense?

Lol. Come on, dude. It doesn't even matter if you're right in a practical/technical sense, you don't put a legendary artifact in a plastic container. 

[DigificWriter]

Just now, Khan of Shadows said:

you don't put a legendary artifact in a plastic container

 

Why not?

[fra85uk]

3 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

 

Why not?

Because of Greta Sedai warning you about the pollution caused by plastic (probably produced by a company that has Moghedien among the stakeholders)

[Jaysen Gore]

2 minutes ago, Khan of Shadows said:

This is where I wonder how much of what's wrong with this show is Rafe vs. the suits. Because the lowest common denominator, lack of faith in the audience present in a lot of their choices has the feel of corporate meddling for me. Perrin hates violence because he killed his wife, Lan has to show more emotion, as if there aren't legions of folks who would be drawn to/inspired by a selfless bad ass stoic samurai, etc. We're constantly being told about the difference between TV vs. books, but a lot of these explanations seem to reflect inside the box thinking/misunderstanding of what people actually want. 

The changes to both Perrin and Lan are Hollywood tropes - Perrin's even has a name it's used so often. And one of the big problems loyal book readers are going to have is that it will be impossible to tell when Rafe ends and the suits begin on those types of changes. In these specific cases, I tend to blame Rafe more, since he could have accomplished the same goals in different ways inside his take on the story. Rafe also definitely gets the credit / blame for the Who is the Dragon? decision and approach, and all that lead to.

 

The suits deserve the blame for not giving the show enough running time / episodes to build up the EF5 through small character moments / training / conversations. And for not giving the production team enough time / budget to adjust properly for Covid and Barney's departure. Most of episode 8's issues are probably on the Suits, or Covid, and not the Production team's "fault"