S1E8: The Eye of the World v2

[Gothic Flame]

Here is a couple that watched the show without reading the books and is now reading the books. And giving their reactions to each book as they go.

 

[Weird_Old_Lady]

1 minute ago, Testeria said:

 

When You present culture that is different than that of the readers, You need to explain things, how it works. When You present culture that is same or similar, You explain nothing and things get old quickly.

 

For example when Egwene have sex with Rand out of wedlock I do not know if this is just because newyorkers behave like that and it is obvious for the watcher/writer - or if this is part of the world. So I do not know if it is legal, risky (pregnant anyone?) strange, normal... if that was presented as in the books, writers would have to give us a little hint what is happening and that hint would work for next generations too. Now if morals in US shifts again people would be as clueless as me (coming from non US society).

 

 

I love when I can use my extensive philosophy training from time to time ?

 

 

 

I literary have no idea what cage You are talking about. If not being assaulted, beaten or raped is kind of cage - I'm for cages for everyone.

 

 

The cage is that the women did not have at all the personal agency and freedom of choice to do most things having to do with property (not allowed to own land or businesses), money (when I was born women in the US who were married could not have their own private bank account unless their husband said it was ok), marriage and reproduction, (not always allowed a say in who we marry, used and abused often, who we had sex with, who touched our bodies, how many children we birthed). We needed a man's permission for getting on birth control or getting our tubes tied. When men abused us we were told that they were showing care and affection and only wanted to keep us safe. No.

 

No. Sometimes we gotta do it ourselves and y'all can just hold on a sec. 

 

 

We get a turn now, too. We are allowed to be just as loud and free and sexual or not as they always have been. Deal with it.

 

 

 

 

You have made me aware that you are from another culture and that explains some things, I'm sure, but you are not the first to say this stuff by a long shot. It has been all over the place on this site and elsewhere. Sometimes the mods here tsk tsk about it. But I really wish they would call it out more strongly. It's really depressing to find myself  explaining this

 

 

 

 

Again. Still. More. After all this time ...

 

 

Every man I have ever met swears up and down and sideways that HE would never hurt a woman. But someone is. A lot of someones. Who could it be then?????

[Weird_Old_Lady]

1 hour ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Chivalry is made by men and for men. It was mostly to keep women in control. I'm glad it's dead because it was obviously failing.

 

Are you sure we are from the same reality? 

 

Yes, I will gladly take having to open my own doors in exchange for bodily autonomy and freedom to fully participate in society. What the heck. Wouldn't you? Why or why not?

 

[VooDooNut]

I'm sorry @Weird_Old_Lady. You make a good point about it not being called out often enough. At the same time, even still, even though it's not any one person's responsibility to have to be the teacher, it can be a learning opportunity for all. But sometimes the lack of understanding makes me not want to participate as well.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Chivalry is made by men and for men. It was mostly to keep women in control. I'm glad it's dead because it was obviously failing.

 

Are you sure we are from the same reality? 

 

Yes, I will gladly take having to open my own doors in exchange for bodily autonomy and freedom to fully participate in society. What the heck. Wouldn't you? Why or why not?

I am not talking about all the women in towers / ownership / opening doors polite deference crap; I am fully egalitarian on that front. I am talking about a society where the expectation is that at any point, any man can be asked to lay down his life for any woman or child, and that it is in the best interest of society as a whole for women and children to survive first. In the book context, it is Agelmar's speech when Rand tries to go in to talk to Egwene - from the youngest boy to the oldest man, they will die to defend the doorway, and be aghast at the need.

 

Robbing the Shienarans of this code also greatly damages the opportunity that the Aiel present on this front, when we get to see women and men in an egalitarian setting, and how shocking it is for the boys to accept that.  And worse, it may in fact rob Rand of one of his major character arcs in the story, because he has to come to accept it.

[Gothic Flame]

13 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

We get a turn now, too. We are allowed to be just as loud and free and sexual or not as they always have been. Deal with it.

Books?

Show?

Anyone?

[Weird_Old_Lady]

3 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I am not talking about all the women in towers / ownership / opening doors polite deference crap; I am fully egalitarian on that front. I am talking about a society where the expectation is that at any point, any man can be asked to lay down his life for any woman or child, and that it is in the best interest of society as a whole for women and children to survive first. In the book context, it is Agelmar's speech when Rand tries to go in to talk to Egwene - from the youngest boy to the oldest man, they will die to defend the doorway, and be aghast at the need.

 

Robbing the Shienarans of this code also greatly damages the opportunity that the Aiel present on this front, when we get to see women and men in an egalitarian setting, and how shocking it is for the boys to accept that.  And worse, it may in fact rob Rand of one of his major character arcs in the story, because he has to come to accept it.

Maybe someone finally asked the women what they wanted? What they felt? What they thought they could or should do? 

 

We all deserve autonomy... No matter the price. You sound like someone who has not had yours stolen from you.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

2 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Books?

Show?

Anyone?

???? Sorry but kind of not sorry I guess. It's a bit of a tangent but it does have something to do with the lens through which some people view the show. Otherwise I wouldn't be hearing about an Agenda all the time. 

 

How about this? I am gonna take MY BALLS and go home. This on top of the slurs I saw here the other day is enough. Some of you are fighting the good fight and I salute you.

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, ArrylT said:

 

Yes.

 

Was it known in Book 1?   Not sure.   But there is at least 1 book documented case of Mat stealing.  But to summarize from TSR Ch 7

 

"Soon after turning thirteen, Mat talked Rand into stealing a jar of apple brandy. Nynaeve found them asleep at Bran al'Vere's table. Their heads were hurting so badly that they didn't even feel the switches she gave them"

 

Honestly, I don't think Mat steals in the show until he takes the crystal from the Aiel body in Episode 3.  He's never really stolen anything before then, and that is why he is apologetic about it to the dead man and explains about his sisters.

Why does he have Danya's bracelet in episode 1?  He traded sexual favors for it and is hiding that he is doing so from the others. 
The show lays lots of hints that that is what Mat has been doing.  In Episode 3, Rand says Mat likes 'older women like Moiraine' (when it's clear he doesn't have the slightest interest in Moiraine.)  Mat answers that he makes exceptions (specifically for Dana), and then moves in to 'flirt' with Dana, hinting that he prefers to sleep in the sheets, etc....he's trying to hint to her that he's willing to sleep with her in exchange for board.  She's just having none of it, but it's clear she knows what he's doing too.  Also in Episode 3, he gets his pocket picked quickly...if he were a thief, he'd have realized right off that he was getting his pocket picked...he'd be doing the same thing.  Finally, there's just the situation in Two Rivers...it's a small, close knit community, and Mat hasn't ever left it. If he were stealing, he'd be very quickly caught.  If he were servicing the older widows in the community, he wouldn't. 

I think this is one of those 'recontextualization' moments that would have come out, potentially, if Barney had stayed on and interacted with Fain in Episode 8.  I don't know if it will now.

[Guest Testeria]

11 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

The cage is that the women did not have at all the personal agency and freedom of choice

 

Sure but what does it has to do with "chivalry"? Chivalry is basically a notion that because a woman is physically weaker than man she should not be assaulted physically by man.

 

My sister was living in Syria ALONE, working/studying there for more over the year and she could have gone to very shady places because she knew that when she would just yell "where is Arab's honor?" every single male would step back and not harm her (it is obviously not anymore like that in Syria).

 

I'm really sorry for Your bad experiences but for her it was freedom, not a cage (by her own words)

 

 

11 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Every man I have ever met swears up and down and sideways that HE would never hurt a woman. But someone is. A lot of someones. Who could it be then?????

 

There are always people who would hurt other people and they would more often hurt men. Those are only few % but it is enough people to hurt everyone.

 

That is why I believe it is so important to teach boys to never ever use physical force on woman. Never. Because if they lose control and they do, it would most probably be someone they love: a girlfriend, a mother, a wife, a daughter. And it takes a lot of self control and training to maintain. Anyway.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Books?

Show?

Anyone?

 

Now considering the books - it would be fun if we could meet many different cultures in the show, not just always new-yorkers in funny clothes. For me at least.

 

[Gothic Flame]

3 minutes ago, Testeria said:

Now considering the books - it would be fun if we could meet many different cultures in the show, not just always new-yorkers in funny clothes. For me at least.

As long as no one tries to start a certain Ebou Dari custom regarding marriage knives.

[Ralph]

50 minutes ago, 7th age said:

 

 

Since this is where they lost me a bit. While I totaly, 100% stand beside you on any real world implications.

This is a fantasy world. So why does it have to be changed. Why cant it be there as is and then we have a debatte about it in comparison to reality? The most misogynicst fantasy world Im aware of is the Handmaids Tale and as far as Im aware that sparked a lot of positive debate. Not saying thats something I ever expected of them, but they really had(and have) an opportunity here to do something similarly impactful.

The most likely answer to my own question is I fear, they dont trust their audience to understand the complexity(as is the case with most hollywood prod.).

 

Because it isn't part of the story for the world to have to be like that, and would need explaining why it is. But tbh, I don't believe this is why they charged things like R&E having sex - that was to make their relationship real, and increase the emotional seesawing through the on/off of the series. 

 

I have seen people presenting this as a reason not to change gender dualism, and I don't understand the argument. You would say in this world souls are restricted to gender because it is not a real world - that wouldn't mean anything to anyone. 

 

Handmaid's tale is not a comparison because that is part of the point of the story 

[7th age]

24 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Who could it be then?????

Not all of us, that much nuance at least can be required.

 

25 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Again. Still. More. After all this time ...

That fight will never end. As with other liberties they have to be fought for and defended lest they be rolled back. But I stand in solidarity with you sister as do millions of others. And it is not like it doesnt get better. Id say it has gotten better step by step for last 100-150 years, each step hardly fought for.  And the real change comes only over the generations.  My grand parents had a "traditional" marriage. My parents married at a time where at least some of the laws youu describe were still active, yet there was never an issue in terms of equality(and Ive asked my Mom), both worked, she cooked, he cleaned and did laundry... etc.  As for myself, Im currently planing a summer vacation with a friend and his 2 little kids, because he will take a 2 month vacation from his job to take full time care of his kids so that his wife can finish her doctoral thesis. I dont think I remember any instance in our live where either me, my friend or my father (who was a pacifist in general) would ever have willingly hurt another human being except as small boys scuffling with others. Plus I imagine youd be rather ok with our voting record?.

Im rambling though.

Dont ever think you stand alone in this fight(and dont think there arent any men standing with you either), makes for too much depressing thought AND isnt accurate.?

[7th age]

28 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Because it isn't part of the story for the world to have to be like that, and would need explaining why it is. But tbh, I don't believe this is why they charged things like R&E having sex - that was to make their relationship real, and increase the emotional seesawing through the on/off of the series. 

 

I have seen people presenting this as a reason not to change gender dualism, and I don't understand the argument. You would say in this world souls are restricted to gender because it is not a real world - that wouldn't mean anything to anyone. 

 

Handmaid's tale is not a comparison because that is part of the point of the story 

 

But it COULD be part of the story. There is so many different gender dynamics in these different cultures, plus the whole balance theme in general. It could be and to a part is automatically in the story.

 

MY main point in all of this is here: I dont have a problem with most of the changes due to this ideological influence we are discussing, but I can see that they are there. And since I can  see them, yet dont have the expectation/right to say how others judge them, I understand (though not necessarily agree with) some of their positions.

Btw. I think this debate just suffers  from overpoltication, but the first step to really getting rid of that would be to acknowledge that the influences are there, the changes are there, now make of that what you will...

What I dont agree with is one side saying there are no influences whatsoever because that would be giving in to the other side that just looks at every artistic decision that somehow, real or imaginary, disfavors a man because their whole vision is colored by an antiwoke filter from the get go(and for the most part I dont find the people here to necessarily fall into either category, but that is a trend in the wider fan community).

There is an inbetween here where I can say, those influences from Rafes selfdeclared political wolrdviews are playing a role here and that has bad AND good(compare the way they handled nudity with what GoT did and you can tell that we are a decade later and minds have shifted) consequences, lets discuss that.

Edited January 4, 2022 by 7th age

[VooDooNut]

5 minutes ago, 7th age said:

 

But it COULD be part of the story. There is so many different gender dynamics in these different cultures, plus the whole balance theme in general. It could be and to a part is automatically in the story.

 

MY main point in all of this is here: I dont have a problem with most of the changes due to this ideological influence we are discussing, but I can see that they are there. And since I can  see them, yet dont have the expectation/right to say how others judge them, I understand (though not necessarily agree) some of their positions.

Btw. I think this debate just suffers  from overpoltication, but the first step to really getting rid of that would be to acknoledge that the influences are there, the changes are there now make of that what you will. What I dont agree with is one side saying there are no influences whatsoever because that would be giving in to the other side that just looks at every artistic decision that somehow, real or imaginary, disfavors a man because their whole vision is colored by an antiwoke filter from the get go.

There is an inbetween here where I can say, those influences from Rafes selfdeclared political wolrdviews are playing a role here and that has bad AND good consequences, lets discuss that.

I think you're speaking to the importance of artistic integrity. I haven't seen anything in the show (so far) that, to me, displays a lack of artistic integrity by Rafe&Co. If that moments arrives, I'll mention it here.

[SinisterDeath]

Season 1 has been over for 2 weeks, and ya'll need to learn to reading the thread title, and make an attempt at staying on topic.

As a reminder, this topic was about the events that took place in Episode 8. Everything else, was off-topic.