A Memory of Light - The Plot (Part Deux)

[Luckers]

Did you miss the part where I quoted the viewing? The words "older" and "younger" were specifically used. Not "old" and "young". "Older" and "younger". Its purely comparative, and Birgitte is the only object of the comparative adjective.

 

Min did not think: "Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was old, and others to an ugly man who was young, yet somehow Min knew that they were the same man."

 

She instead thought: "Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew that they were the same man."

 

I did miss that, yes. My bad.

 

Ok, so lets concider that. Min is confused by the visions, she sees too many for one lifetime. She continues with that confusion by seeing that Birgitte having an adventure with a man who was younger, and the same man who was older.

 

Now, am i correct in saying that because of the word strange, Min is percieving the age of the man in relation to the age of Birgitte at the time of the adventure, and not to the age of the woman standing in front of her because otherwise age would explain it and it would not be strange? And that since we know that Gaidal is always spun out first, any adventures she may have with Gaidal being younger then her must be this particular incarnation as a result of this specific set of circumstances? Ergo, she lives at least long enough for Gaidal to grow up.

 

Fair enough. A reasonable argument... im not sure that i buy it. But ill need to think for a bit before deciding.

 

Who is the "she"? Birgitte. Its not "strange" for Min to see people at older stages of their life in her visions. It is very strange for Min to see the same man "older" and "younger" relative to the same person in her visions.

 

Well, just to throw a stone in the mix. The order Min stated it could be contributing to the strangeness. Concider, Min states that she sees him as an old man, then as a young man. She mentions the older man first. People dont do that in the progression of thought, unless there is something to to suggest precedence.

 

Has it occured to you that the 'strangeness' comes from the old man preceding the young. Specifically, Min has not yet realized who Birgitte is, and what her nature is. So she could very easily be judging the men in relation to the birgitte that stands before her. If you saw a woman of 30 having an adventures with a man of 40, and then later, further in the future having other adventures with the same man, only he is now 20, would you not think it strange?

 

I agree your suggestion is likely, but im not sure it can be taken as rock solid. The fact that Min places no currentness on the image of the younger man, and in no way differentiates it from the myriad of images there should be of the older man--for should there not be viewings of a thousand lives, to just one? And yes, they are seperate viewings--the point of the viewing is the adventure, she just notes the age of Gaidal, because something about it strikes her as strange. That Min seems to see a younger-than-birgitte Gaidal in even amounts to an older-than-birgitte Gaidal... I dont know.

 

Didn`t Rand think in a POV(I`ll try to find it) that he had stilled the three Aes Sedai?

Egwene thought about stilling as making a shield razor sharp, while Rand crushed them with fists of Spirit. I just assumed that it`s done differently with saidin and saidar, like Travelling.

Is there anything that hints that the three Aes Sedai were burnt out?

 

No, its not a difference of gender methodology. Rand describes a shield and its the same cutting motion. The way he crushed the knots in fists of spirits wasn't designed to sever them from the true source--it was the strain of what he did that burnt them out. Its like the difference between shearing a pipe in two, or forcing so much water through it, it bursts. The latter much more closely matches Burning Out then stilling. The reason the word stilled is used is because this was done to them. Nevertheless they were not severed, they were... well, expunged. Burnt Out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

She mentions the older man first. People dont do that in the progression of thought, unless there is something to to suggest precedence.

 

Or it could indicate that, in accordance with Birgitte's stated memories, Gaidal is older than she is in every spinning but this one ...

 

:D

[Luckers]

Quote:

She mentions the older man first. People dont do that in the progression of thought, unless there is something to to suggest precedence.

 

 

Or it could indicate that, in accordance with Birgitte's stated memories, Gaidal is older than she is in every spinning but this one ...

 

Which supports the rest of my comment. I dont really see how that indicates that anyway.

[RobertAlexWillis]

If this is the ONLY spinning in which she is older, then she has to live through Tarmon Gaidon to have adventures with Gaidal as anything but a toddler. Thats been my only contention all along. She lives through Tarmon Gaidon.

[Luckers]

Which has nothing to do with the comment. I'm serious... i really dont understand. I conceded that if that is the interpretation of strange then your position is the right one. This isn't that

 

I don't understand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK ... Now I'm confused too. We must somehow be talking about different things.

 

I'll conclude with, I'm personally 99.9 percent sure that Birgitte lives.

[HoppyQ]

Luckers, the first thing I thought of after reading your theory was an old Styx song. I think it's called Too much time on my hands :lol: Seriously, I thought it was very well thought out and much more complete than anything I have considered. Just to put my 2 cents in, I agree that Birgitte will die. I have always thought that she wouldn't last long and that she won't meet Gaidal in this life. If she dies, the wheel then can spin her back out quickly so that she will still be younger than him when they do meet.

[Luckers]

Well i was sick, and feeling too nautious to lie down and read. It distracted me.

 

Robert, i said yours was the most likely. The stone is that she may very well have been refering to the age relative to the current incarnation of Birgitte, and that the vision she see indicate an older man, then a younger man, relative to the odd 30 years of the woman standing in front of her, and that somehow he has managed to de-age. Then she realises that the woman is the woman out of legend.

 

I'm suggesting that the 'strangeness' may come from the sequence of ages, old THEN young, not the relativity of those ages.

 

Moreover, again, the fact both the visions of adventures with the older gaidal and the younger gaidal seem roughly proportionate with each other also throws me from the idea that the younger man is only from this one life while the older has thousands of lives to have accumulated images.

[cloglord]

Just to throw something else in, where does it say that hero's can't be spun out in relatively quick succesion?

 

For instance Gaidal is spun out in hypothetical year one, and then Birgette is spun out in year 10. She is younger than he. In year 40, they have an advenure, Gaidal dies. In year 41 Gaidal is spun out again, and in year 60 a fifty year old birgette has an adventure with 20 year old Gaidal. Then they both die. In the span of one life birgette loves and adventures with 2 gaidal's a young one and an old, seems strange to me.

 

I don't think that's what Min's viewing means,(I agree with RAW,) but hey who knows?

[RobertAlexWillis]

The stone is that she may very well have been refering to the age relative to the current incarnation of Birgitte, and that the vision she see indicate an older man, then a younger man, relative to the odd 30 years of the woman standing in front of her, and that somehow he has managed to de-age. Then she realises that the woman is the woman out of legend.

 

OK. I'm just saying that the syntax doesn't suggest that (actually, it basically precludes it), and also, its worth noting that Min recognized her as Birgitte Silverbow before she thought about those visions.

 

For instance Gaidal is spun out in hypothetical year one, and then Birgette is spun out in year 10. She is younger than he. In year 40, they have an advenure, Gaidal dies. In year 41 Gaidal is spun out again, and in year 60 a fifty year old birgette has an adventure with 20 year old Gaidal. Then they both die. In the span of one life birgette loves and adventures with 2 gaidal's a young one and an old, seems strange to me.

 

The kink in that theory is Birgitte's stated memories, from both while she was still in Tel'aran'rhiod, and soon after she was ripped out. She remembers that she is always younger than Gaidal, and specifically worries that she won't be able to find him in this life, because she is older. So, its not something that has happened before, possibly not in any previous turning of the Wheel.

[Luckers]

OK. I'm just saying that the syntax doesn't suggest that (actually, it basically precludes it), and also, its worth noting that Min recognized her as Birgitte Silverbow before she thought about those visions.

 

Well no, and with all due respect to your background in this area, it doesn't preclude that. All that it shows is that Min found something strange about the visions of Birgitte having adventures with a man who was older then she was, and a man who was younger then she was, and that they were the same man.

 

It COULD have something to do with the fact that the man was younger then the Birgitte he was having the adventure with, and then older then the Birgitte having the adventure with. It COULD have to do with the order.

 

Or heres a thought, but it COULD have to do with the fact that they were noticeably different men. We know that different incarnations of the same man usually have basic similar features but are obviously different men.

 

Tell me, does not the sentence connect the 'strangely' and the 'yet'.

 

"Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew that they were the same man."

 

The commas contain what she sees. The Strangely, and the Yet are outside of that vision. The sense of strangeness she feels is caused by the deduction of the yet. And the fact that Min 'somehow knew' this shows that the fact that they are the same man is not readily apparent.

 

The fact is, Robert, the syntax does not support us 'knowing' that the age of the ulgy men was relative to that of the Birgitte having the adventure, and not the woman before her. It does not support us 'knowing' that Birgitte will survive out of the need to have adventures with a Gaidal younger then she. All that it supports is that the younger Gaidals and older Gaidals were not easily recognized as the same man, despite the fact that Min knew them to be.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well no, and with all due respect to your background in this area, it doesn't preclude that.

 

Sentence diagramming would help me demostrate this. Of course, since it is internal dialogue, and Min is not a grammarian, that doesn't really mean anything. But in combination with Birgitte's memories which I've referenced, Elayne's predicted survival (from Nicola's Fortelling), and the indications that the Pattern is reabsorbing Birgitte into its weaving, it just seems to be too clear.

 

I'm not going to argue grammar and syntax with you. But if Birgitte dies before the end of Tarmon Gaidon, I'll mail you a hundred dollars, how about that?

 

:D

[Luckers]

Sounds fair enough.

 

And you just know i was going to raise Min's lack of information. I enjoy that. We know each other too well. Its kind of creepy.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Just read this topic and it's quite impressive, although I disagree with at least half of it.

The biggest problem I probably have is the way you (talking to you there Luckers) involve Rand into everything.

It's just too much.

 

I also think Rand will die in the end.

 

Another thought struck me today: I think Rand will be dead before they reseal the dark ones prison.

I'm not argue-ing this, just a possibility I had never considered before.

 

I'm a bit surprised you left out the über-shadowspawn, the gholam.

 

As for Fain. I wrote down this idea a couple of months ago but it passed a bit unnoticed.

I think Fain could reappear in Braem Wood where he's sucking up to the kings and queen present there. (like he always does)

Here Hurin comes in. Hurin recognices Fain's scent, warns the AS present there...

I also think there will be a fight between Fain and Shaidar.

 

A direct fight between Slayer and Lan or Moiraine

A direct fight between Slayer and Perrin (because of the wolves)

 

Oh, and I'm not quite sure why but I think Min will die not long after Rand dies

[Mat is the Boss]

Oh, and I'm not quite sure why but I think Min will die not long after Rand dies

 

That`s very possible, but if Rand survive Tarmon Gaidon with his ability to channel intact, he could live on several hundred years. But perhaps he will burn himself out defeating Shaitan

[Luckers]

We can't really predict when the gholam will come into play. My guess is before Mat enters the Tower, or just after he returns.

 

And Rand wouldn't be involved in the Tower line until its very end.

[wvlr]

Luckers that is excellent!!! I really enjoyed it and hope you don't take it personal if I create a couple side threads (I don't want to clog up yours with my junk) that addresses segaments of what you did or elaborates on some voids. They may differ in some respects, but as best as I can, I will give reasons (but no quotes because I don't have time to look it all up).

 

Cheers!

 

PS. My 2 cents is on Birgitte surviving TG, but heck - it's only 2 cents.