Mat In Season 1

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Agelmar's choices were:

A: Leave the horn hidden.  If the city is overrun then the horn is lost and will potentially be found by the Shadow.

B: Bring the horn out and get it out of there, trusting that his personally picked men were not DarkFriends. 

He was wrong most likely, but given the two choices.  ONE of them gives a chance for the Horn to be kept and the other one loses it.

It's only due to factors that Agelmar did not know about that the city stood.  Without Nynaeve and Egwene the trollocs take Fal Dara.  So given the choice between 100% lost and a chance at not being lost, you take the better odds.

Look, say someone jumped from a third floor building, hit pavement and is paralyzed.  You'd call that stupid.  Now let's add in the details that the building was on fire and there was no other way out.  Jump and hope or stay and burn, suddenly instead of stupid it's the better option.

 

  

The same people complaining now would instead be complaining that Moraine left one of the possible Dragons behind.  There's a plothole no matter how you slice it.

Or you dont make Algemar a bumbling fool and have 50 men or 100 men take the horn to safety. Those men are not going make a difference to saving the Gap againnst 20,000+ trollocs and the safety of the Horn is far more important anyway.

 

Or you have him move the Horn before the very last moment that the trollocs attack.

 

Or you get the channelers to protect the horn as it is evacuated.

 

It was a dumb writing choice.

[SingleMort]

28 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Or you have him move the Horn before the very last moment that the trollocs attack

I think if they had no intention of using the Horn there's really no reason for them to keep it in Fal Dara at all. We know that Fal Dara is essentially on the front lines of constant battle with trollocs so there would always be a chance that it could fall to an attack. If they truly believe the Horn is only for the Dragon then it would make more sense for them to have sent it to Tar Valon years or centuries ago or to Illian. There's no reason for them to want to keep the Horn because it's presence in Fal Dara just makes them an even bigger target for dark friends and hunters of the horn.

 

This is why having the Shienerans guarding the horn in Fal Dara creates so many plotholes. Heck they could have even gotten around some of these problems if the Horn was hidden at Fal Dara without anyone's knowledge, like buried in the ground or in a wall. Then maybe it could be accidentally revealed during the battle (maybe there is damage to the city that reveals it?). 

[Andra]

47 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Or you dont make Algemar a bumbling fool and have 50 men or 100 men take the horn to safety. Those men are not going make a difference to saving the Gap againnst 20,000+ trollocs and the safety of the Horn is far more important anyway.

 

Or you have him move the Horn before the very last moment that the trollocs attack.

 

Or you get the channelers to protect the horn as it is evacuated.

 

It was a dumb writing choice.

 

If Rafe were a brilliant writer, he would surprise everyone by having the Horn not be in the box, but actually be somewhere else entirely.

 

Fain carries it all the way to Falme, where Turak opens it and we get a scene from The Fifth Element: "This case is EMPTY!  Empty. The opposite of full. This case is supposed to be full! Anyone care to explain?"

[SingleMort]

7 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

If Rafe were a brilliant writer, he would surprise everyone by having the Horn not be in the box, but actually be somewhere else entirely.

 

Fain carries it all the way to Falme, where Turak opens it and we get a scene from The Fifth Element: "This case is EMPTY!  Empty. The opposite of full. This case is supposed to be full! Anyone care to explain?"

Ok I know this has been done before in Fifth Element but I love this idea it actually flips the entire scene on it's head if Fain was tricked into stealing an empty box. I doubt they'd do it but I wish it were true

[Cauthonfan4]

10 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

You find out Harris is gone after the scene where they're all at the Gate.  How do you procede?

Green screen them meeting up further away from the gate 

Mat still sick. Then cut to them entering without mat. Simple. Sorry it really is that easy. 

10 hours ago, expat said:

How?  He was at the gate and all the previous shots included him which they couldn't reshoot and they couldn't edit him out. 

See above.

4 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

The same people complaining now would instead be complaining that Moraine left one of the possible Dragons behind.  There's a plothole no matter how you slice it

But one is reasonably understandable and one vilified a character for no reason.

[WhiteVeils]

4 hours ago, Mailman said:

Or you dont make Algemar a bumbling fool and have 50 men or 100 men take the horn to safety. Those men are not going make a difference to saving the Gap againnst 20,000+ trollocs and the safety of the Horn is far more important anyway.

 

Or you have him move the Horn before the very last moment that the trollocs attack.

 

Or you get the channelers to protect the horn as it is evacuated.

 

It was a dumb writing choice.

There could be 100 men waiting to protect the horn...just not all in the room of course.  Or this could be a stealth mission and only a handful are going to snuggle it out the same way baby Lan was smuggled out of Malkier.

[Cauthonfan4]

1 hour ago, WhiteVeils said:

There could be 100 men waiting to protect the horn...just not all in the room of course

If this was remotely true why didn't anyone yell for those 100 men the moment fain showed up? Your stgument makes no sense logically. 

[WhiteVeils]

1 hour ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

If this was remotely true why didn't anyone yell for those 100 men the moment fain showed up? Your stgument makes no sense logically. 

 Starting with 'They're out of earshot...like in the stables? Or at the gates of the city?" 

 

[KakitaOCU]

  

8 hours ago, Andra said:

But unless the darkfriends (that he already knew existed) were among his inner circle, there is no reason to assume losing the city means the Shadow finds the Horn. 

Except just losing the horn is devastating.  Even if the shadow doesn't find it, losing it is bad.  

You mention the other border lands and retaking the city, but we know from Malkier that if the Trollocs take land, it doesn't get taken back.  The blight spreads, the land corrupts and it's down.  Nothing in the books suggests in any way that land lost to the shadow could just be taken back.  It never happens until the very final victory.  

Also, you mention there's no reason to take the city if they don't know about the Horn?  Trollocs take and destroy and removing Fal Dara is a major hit to the forces of the light with or without the Horn.  I'm genuinely confused that you think the city would only get taken over the horn.
 

7 hours ago, Mailman said:

Or you dont make Algemar a bumbling fool and have 50 men or 100 men take the horn to safety. Those men are not going make a difference to saving the Gap againnst 20,000+ trollocs and the safety of the Horn is far more important anyway.

 

Or you have him move the Horn before the very last moment that the trollocs attack.

 

Or you get the channelers to protect the horn as it is evacuated.

He knows there's Darkfriends, he trusts the job to people he is 100% convinced are loyal, and again, it would have worked fine except for Fain that no one knew was coming.

Moving sooner only works if he knew the size of the force coming, he didn't, we only find that out IN episode 8.

Getting the channelers doesn't work because, again, Amalisa plus those 2 nameless wouldn't have done anything effective anywhere.  It's only because of the two ridiculously strong women he didn't know were there that Amalisa accomplished anything.
 

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

But one is reasonably understandable and one vilified a character for no reason.

 

So to be clear, your stance is the show should cater to you specifically?  Because Moraine sending the reds after him in an example of her hubris and errors seems like a GREAT way to set up Mat's distrust of Aes Sedai, Mat's confinement to Tar Valon  and provide info to the Reds that pushes Siuan's plot along.

You don't like it, that's all well and good, but your personal opinion is not the same as it being factually incorrect.
 

  

1 hour ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

If this was remotely true why didn't anyone yell for those 100 men the moment fain showed up? Your stgument makes no sense logically. 

White's very valid answer aside.  There were 3 men in the room vs 2 Fades and Fain.  Assuming any type of suprise element the fight is over before anyone CAN raise an alarm.

Edited February 7, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[Andra]

6 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

There could be 100 men waiting to protect the horn...just not all in the room of course.  Or this could be a stealth mission and only a handful are going to snuggle it out the same way baby Lan was smuggled out of Malkier.

Baby Lan wasn't "smuggled out" in secret.

He was sent with a hand-picked group of the best fighting men in the kingdom, who fought every step of the way getting him out.  Only one of whom survived.  

 

On another subject, I wish the show had respected him enough to name him.

[Andra]

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except just losing the horn is devastating.  Even if the shadow doesn't find it, losing it is bad.  

No worse than not knowing where it is.

Which has been the case for 3,000 years in the books.

 

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

You mention the other border lands and retaking the city, but we know from Malkier that if the Trollocs take land, it doesn't get taken back.  The blight spreads, the land corrupts and it's down.  Nothing in the books suggests in any way that land lost to the shadow could just be taken back.  It never happens until the very final victory.  

Well, except for all the land taken by the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, which was taken back.

 

Malkier was further from Fal Dara than Fal Dara is from Fal Moran.  And Fal Dara is actually that king's own territory (which he would have been significantly more motivated to reclaim).  Malkier was not.  When another kingdom falls, you mourn and move on.  When your own city falls, you fight to takke it back.

 

The circumstances around the fall of Malkier were dramatically different from what we see in the show at Fal Dara.  It was largely an inside job, while the only equivalent now was apparently the theft of the Horn.

3 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Also, you mention there's no reason to take the city if they don't know about the Horn?  Trollocs take and destroy and removing Fal Dara is a major hit to the forces of the light with or without the Horn.  I'm genuinely confused that you think the city would only get taken over the horn.

That's not at all what I said, and I'm baffled how you could have read it that way.

[KakitaOCU]

8 minutes ago, Andra said:

No worse than not knowing where it is.

Which has been the case for 3,000 years in the books.

False equivalency.  You don't look at a situation compared to another situation, you look at it in it's own light.  Either way, incorrect conclusion.

Conclusion one: We can validly compare the two, in which case not knowing where it is is a better option than knowing it is in the hands of the shadow even if they don't realize it.

Conclusion two (correct): The fact is that the TV verse knows where the Horn is and doesn't know about the other turning of the wheel where they didn't.  You don't compare the situation to a non-existant what if, you compare the situation to the situation.
 

11 minutes ago, Andra said:

Well, except for all the land taken by the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars, which was taken back.

 

The time 2000 years earlier where Aes Sedai were stronger as were nations?  That point aside, the Trollocs did not expand and hold, they rampaged.  Either way, Malkier is the comparison.
 

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

Malkier was further from Fal Dara than Fal Dara is from Fal Moran.  And Fal Dara is actually that king's own territory (which he would have been significantly more motivated to reclaim).  Malkier was not.  When another kingdom falls, you mourn and move on.  When your own city falls, you fight to takke it back.

How?  With what forces?  How fast can they mobilize?  If they could mobilize quickly there would have been discussion about it.
 

15 minutes ago, Andra said:

The circumstances around the fall of Malkier were dramatically different from what we see in the show at Fal Dara.  It was largely an inside job, while the only equivalent now was apparently the theft of the Horn.

Except we're discussing taking it back.  And in the case of Malkier, people came, Aes Sedai came.  They just came too later to defend.  So if taking it back is so easy, why didn't they?
 

16 minutes ago, Andra said:

That's not at all what I said, and I'm baffled how you could have read it that way.

Yes, you did, you said there's no reason to go to the city unless they know about the horn.  You've now conveniently edited your post.  Given that we're not enemies or malicious, I'm going to assume you meant the way you've edited it and simply made the edit to be more clear in what you intended and it's a simple misunderstanding.  

[Pukel-man]

21 hours ago, expat said:

Good since the depiction of EF was one of the most unbelievable and off-putting things about the first book.

 

Lets see:  a hardscrabble small town on the edge of civilization with a technology level around 1700 and an average life-expectancy of 35-40, yet everyone is essentially perfect, almost all of the parents/parent figures are alive, and people are totally carefree.  The only thing that mares this perfection is the subtle racism against the people on the other side of the tracks (e.g. Coplins) who are described in racist terms as shifty and lazy.  Kids are allowed to be kids, so 20-year-olds can be described as frat boys.

 

 

Underscore added. Point of information, shifty and lazy are not racist terms. It is racist to believe that any particular ethnic group is, as a group, "shifty" or "lazy," but those terms themselves do not refer to any ethnic or racial characteristic.

 

And since the Emonds Field folk are uniformly and exclusively white in the books, there isn't any possible "racism" in description of Coplins.

[SingleMort]

4 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except just losing the horn is devastating.  Even if the shadow doesn't find it, losing it is bad.  

yep all the more reason why it makes no sense for them to keep it in Fal Dara. It's like keeping plans for the atomic bomb on the front lines during WW2. The only sensible reasons for them to keep it there is if 1.) they didn't know it was there if all the people who had knowledge of it had long since died. Or 2.) if they planned to use it. It makes no sense to knowingly keep it without using it because not only is there a risk it will be lost in a trolloc attack but it's very presence paints a giant target on Fal Dara for not just Dark Friends but everyone hunting the Horn. Agelmar would have needed to devote countless troops to safeguard it which are soldiers who would be unable to defend against trolloc attacks because they're on Horn guard duty.  

[Pukel-man]

11 hours ago, SingleMort said:

I think if they had no intention of using the Horn there's really no reason for them to keep it in Fal Dara at all. We know that Fal Dara is essentially on the front lines of constant battle with trollocs so there would always be a chance that it could fall to an attack. If they truly believe the Horn is only for the Dragon then it would make more sense for them to have sent it to Tar Valon years or centuries ago or to Illian. There's no reason for them to want to keep the Horn because it's presence in Fal Dara just makes them an even bigger target for dark friends and hunters of the horn.

 

This is why having the Shienerans guarding the horn in Fal Dara creates so many plotholes. Heck they could have even gotten around some of these problems if the Horn was hidden at Fal Dara without anyone's knowledge, like buried in the ground or in a wall. Then maybe it could be accidentally revealed during the battle (maybe there is damage to the city that reveals it?). 

This is another point. Knowing where Fal Dara is geographically, the horn should have been in Fal Moran, if in Shienar at all. It should have been under King Easar's throne, not Lord Agelmar's.

 

It all adds up to one thing: spending so much time on Stepin was an awful waste of time. There were much more important things to set up in the story. Treating the horn of valere as a throwaway that was introduced in a sentence then promptly stolen by Fain was shamefully bad writing, when it drives a large part of book 2.

 

Again, the only way to read what happened on screen was that they needed to contrive a way to introduce this new element, and this was all they could come up with in the one episode. It was phony, and made no sense within the context of the story.

 

A better way to write it would have been to make it more like the book. <gasp> Moiraine & Rand after fighting off Ishamael - "hey, what's this? It's the horn of valere! We must take this to Agelmar/Easar immediately." Then let the theft happen the way it did in the books, too.

 

Oh, who am I kidding. Drawing on the books is no way to write a TV show.

[Andra]

55 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

False equivalency.  You don't look at a situation compared to another situation, you look at it in it's own light.  Either way, incorrect conclusion.

Conclusion one: We can validly compare the two, in which case not knowing where it is is a better option than knowing it is in the hands of the shadow even if they don't realize it.

Conclusion two (correct): The fact is that the TV verse knows where the Horn is and doesn't know about the other turning of the wheel where they didn't.  You don't compare the situation to a non-existant what if, you compare the situation to the situation.

 

So we can only compare something to itself?

How novel.

 

But even so:  in the TV verse, we were better off not knowing where the Horn was than we are now, knowing that Fain has it.

 

55 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The time 2000 years earlier where Aes Sedai were stronger as were nations?  That point aside, the Trollocs did not expand and hold, they rampaged.  Either way, Malkier is the comparison.

No, they tried to conquer and hold territory.

Driving out the last of them was kind of a big deal.  As was rebuilding cities the trollocs had destroyed when the land was reclaimed - like Fal Dara.  Or Ebou Dar.

 

Yes, the human forces were stronger 2000 years ago.  As were the forces of the Shadow all across the Westlands than a single force focused on just Fal Dara.

 

Malkier is only the comparison because you refuse to look at any other comparison.

55 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

How?  With what forces?  How fast can they mobilize?  If they could mobilize quickly there would have been discussion about it.

With the forces that are always available throughout Shienar, and can mobilize on a moment's notice.  Commanded by their King.  We know they can mobilize quickly because we know how the Borderlands work.  And because we know Agelmar originally expected the city to hold until those forces could arrive.

55 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Except we're discussing taking it back.  And in the case of Malkier, people came, Aes Sedai came.  They just came too later to defend.  So if taking it back is so easy, why didn't they?

No, the Aes Sedai didn't come to Malkier's aid.

We are told in the books explicitly that, though the Tower had told everyone they were too late to save them, they actually never tried.

 

And we're talking about a king taking back his own territory, rather than someone else's.  Which is a dramatically different thing.

 

1 hour ago, Andra said:

That's not at all what I said, and I'm baffled how you could have read it that way.

55 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Yes, you did, you said there's no reason to go to the city unless they know about the horn.  You've now conveniently edited your post.  Given that we're not enemies or malicious, I'm going to assume you meant the way you've edited it and simply made the edit to be more clear in what you intended and it's a simple misunderstanding.  

 

Pardon my French, but bullshit.  That was never part of any of my posts.  And nothing I wrote could have been rationally interpreted that way.  Either before or after editing.

Though it is "convenient" that you didn't actually quote my post when you claimed it's what I said.

Even if it had been, the post you appear to have been talking about was edited 8 hours before you responded to it.

 

My point was that "knowing the Horn was there" couldn't have been the reason the trollocs attacked the city.  Because they didn't know it was there.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Andra

[KakitaOCU]

9 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

yep all the more reason why it makes no sense for them to keep it in Fal Dara. It's like keeping plans for the atomic bomb on the front lines during WW2.

I agree, it's not a smart idea.

Let's look at a few things that put it in perspective of understandable however.

Malkier fell arounnd 43 years prior to the story.  At the same time the commonly held belief is that Tar Valon didn't fail to help Malkier, they refused.

So, 43 years ago Shienar was NOT the front lines.  And immediately after a very strong reason was given to NOT trust Tar Valon.  The Borderlands already can't trust anyone else south of them.  So where does the Horn go?

Oddly enough this is a love case of lack of trust born of lack of communication and honesty, something the books push hard.
 

12 minutes ago, Andra said:

So we can only compare something to itself?

How novel.

 

But even so:  in the TV verse, we were better off not knowing where the Horn was than we are now, knowing that Fain has it.

 

Better choice of words on my part is comparing a situation to another situation in universe.  Your comparison requires people IN universe to understand multiverse theory and know about the different play out that happened in the books.  Without that knowledge the comparison isn't valid.

As for your second point.  It's invalid.  We didn't know Fain was going to come steal it prior to that event happening so you can't use that hind sight to justify your opinion.  A person who got in a car wreck running late to work would have been better off staying home, but they didn't know the car wreck was coming so it wasn't wrong of them at the time to try and get to work.
 

15 minutes ago, Andra said:

Yes, the human forces were stronger 2000 years ago.  As were the forces of the Shadow all across the Westlands than a single force focused on just Fal Dara.

 

Malkier is only the comparison because you refuse to look at any other comparison.

 

You have no way of validating the Shadow being stronger 2000 years prior vs now when the seals are weakening.  Ishamael was active during both times so they were at best the same then and now where as humanity is factually weaker.  Malkier is the only comparison because it's the only nation to fully lose to the shadow in the current setting and the only one that could have had retake attempts with the current time's Aes Sedai and Militaries.

Per your statement about how Fal Dara could just be retaken, why wasn't Malkier?  Why, instead of utter silence from the Tower and the perception that the Tower abandoned Malkier, didn't we see an offense to retake it and put in a child with an Aes Sedai regent?  They knew about Lan.  A Land fully embracing the Tower would be invaluable, yet no one retook Malkier.
 

19 minutes ago, Andra said:

No, the Aes Sedai didn't come to Malkier's aid.

We are told in the books explicitly that, though the Tower had told everyone they were too late to save them, they actually never tried.

 

You're mis-remembering what we were told.  The Tower didn't say they were too late while never trying.  The Tower let everyone think they didn't try because they thought that was better than the idea that the tower failed.  The reality is they sent over a hundred sisters who arrived too late to defend, but could have been there to retake if it was possible.  This is revealed in Chapter 25 of New Spring.
 

29 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

My point was that "knowing the Horn was there" couldn't have been the reason the trollocs attacked the city.  Because they didn't know it was there.

Hence my chalking it up to a misunderstanding and acknowledging it as a misunderstanding.  But given your clear statement here.  At what point did anyone suggest it was the reason for the Trolloc's attack?  

 

[Andra]

54 minutes ago, Andra said:

So we can only compare something to itself?

How novel.

 

But even so:  in the TV verse, we were better off not knowing where the Horn was than we are now, knowing that Fain has it.

 

24 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Better choice of words on my part is comparing a situation to another situation in universe.  Your comparison requires people IN universe to understand multiverse theory and know about the different play out that happened in the books.  Without that knowledge the comparison isn't valid.

As for your second point.  It's invalid.  We didn't know Fain was going to come steal it prior to that event happening so you can't use that hind sight to justify your opinion.  A person who got in a car wreck running late to work would have been better off staying home, but they didn't know the car wreck was coming so it wasn't wrong of them at the time to try and get to work.

 

The entire point of this topic is comparisons between the show and the books, and how the show could have done it better than it did.  Given that, the comparison is completely valid.

As for my second point: the forces of men are objectively better off not knowing where the horn is - and more importantly for the Shadow also not knowing where the Horn is - than they are with giving it directly to the Shadow when they didn't have to.  That's not hindsight, it's objective fact.

 

Yes, something similar happened in the books.  But they hadn't known its location beforehand.  And in the books, they had made plans specifically to not leave it in Fal Dara, but had it stolen before they could carry them out.  There was never even a possibility it would be left there.

 

30 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You have no way of validating the Shadow being stronger 2000 years prior vs now when the seals are weakening.  Ishamael was active during both times so they were at best the same then and now where as humanity is factually weaker.  Malkier is the only comparison because it's the only nation to fully lose to the shadow in the current setting and the only one that could have had retake attempts with the current time's Aes Sedai and Militaries.

The forces of the Shadow included many millions of trollocs invading lands throughout the continent, getting all the way to the southern coast.  That is far more than the few thousand that attacked Fal Dara through the Gap.  One of the things that is implied throughout the books is that in the intervening years trollocs didn't head south in force again partly because of how depleted the forces still were from the last time they did.  So they mostly (with a few notable exceptions) limited themselves to raids across the border.

 

We learn later that this isn't entirely the case, and that they had actually been rebuilding their numbers.  But no one - book or show - knew how much by this time.

But the comparison in that post wasn't about the relative strength of forces today vs. those of 2,000 years ago, it was about what happens when trollocs take land.  Which is what I was specifically responding to. 

 

Malkier wasn't retaken because there were no Malkieri left to retake it.

The same would not remotely have been true if Fal Dara had fallen.  The King, and a large number of additional Shienaran forces were a couple of days away.

 

35 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You're mis-remembering what we were told.  The Tower didn't say they were too late while never trying.  The Tower let everyone think they didn't try because they thought that was better than the idea that the tower failed.  The reality is they sent over a hundred sisters who arrived too late to defend, but could have been there to retake if it was possible.  This is revealed in Chapter 25 of New Spring.

You're right, I had missed the statement made in New Spring.

Though I think the gist still holds.  Because they believed were too late when they arrived, they didn't actually try to do anything.

 

1 hour ago, Andra said:

My point was that "knowing the Horn was there" couldn't have been the reason the trollocs attacked the city.  Because they didn't know it was there.

 

43 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Hence my chalking it up to a misunderstanding and acknowledging it as a misunderstanding.  But given your clear statement here.  At what point did anyone suggest it was the reason for the Trolloc's attack?  

No one had suggested the Horn was the reason for the attack, which is why it was odd that you read my post as if it was saying someone had.

 

It was a response to the idea that if the city fell, it would mean the Shadow would find the Horn, and take possession of it.  The point was that it wouldn't be the case, because they had no reason to even suspect it was there to look for.

 

And you did just slightly more than chalk it up to a misunderstanding.  You claimed I had gone back and "conveniently" edited a post to change something I had never said in the first place.

 

The only misunderstanding was in what you thought I had written.

[SingleMort]

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

Malkier fell arounnd 43 years prior to the story.  At the same time the commonly held belief is that Tar Valon didn't fail to help Malkier, they refused.

I don't remember anyone in the show talking about failure to help Malkier can you specify where that was mentioned?

 

1 hour ago, KakitaOCU said:

So, 43 years ago Shienar was NOT the front lines.  And immediately after a very strong reason was given to NOT trust Tar Valon.  The Borderlands already can't trust anyone else south of them.  So where does the Horn go?

I don't really see this as just a matter of trust. If Shienar are not going to use the Horn then it's very presence becomes a burden and drain on their resources to protect it. Unless they actually think Tar Valon would use the Horn against them then whatever else they do with it they should not care about

 

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, Andra said:

The entire point of this topic is comparisons between the show and the books, and how the show could have done it better than it did.  Given that, the comparison is completely valid.

 

The broader point yes.  This particular issue is about the Horn.  You can't compare the Horn falling into the hands of the Shadow when the Light currently knows where it is vs the Not knowing where it is at all because those are two different versions of the story.   You can't use the version that doesn't apply to make a comparison.

If your argument was "they should have just left it unknown like in the books"  you'd have an argument.  But instead you said "Having it lost in a place where the Shadow can find it isn't any worse than not knowing where it is at all."   That's only a fair comparison if both were options IN universe.  They aren't.  The options were trying to get it to safety or leaving it to fall to the shadow, those were the only two options.  So you can't compare the third option that was not on the table in universe for these people.}

It'd be like me critiquing things in universe in the MCU because Adam Warlock could beat Thanos in the comics.   That's great, but in context of the MCU, Adam Warlock was last scene still being built and so is not relevant to the conversation.

 

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I don't remember anyone in the show talking about failure to help Malkier can you specify where that was mentioned?

They haven't covered it, but the reality is Malkier fell, until we see reason otherwise there's no reason to dismiss the original plot.  Original plot is that 43 years prior Malkier fell, 100 Aes Sedai tried to go help but were too slow and failed and decided to just pretend they hadn't tried.

If the show retcons to something else, will address that then, but until then there's no reason to dismiss the books.  You disagree with this stance, I'm aware.

 

 

9 minutes ago, SingleMort said:

I don't really see this as just a matter of trust. If Shienar are not going to use the Horn then it's very presence becomes a burden and drain on their resources to protect it. Unless they actually think Tar Valon would use the Horn against them then whatever else they do with it they should not care about

It would be a burden and drain.  It's also a massive weapon in the hands of the light that must be protected.  If you don't think anyone else is trustworthy to keep it safe and you care about the world, then you hold the burden.

[Mailman]

7 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

  
He knows there's Darkfriends, he trusts the job to people he is 100% convinced are loyal, and again, it would have worked fine except for Fain that no one knew was coming.

Moving sooner only works if he knew the size of the force coming, he didn't, we only find that out IN episode 8.

Getting the channelers doesn't work because, again, Amalisa plus those 2 nameless wouldn't have done anything effective anywhere.  It's only because of the two ridiculously strong women he didn't know were there that Amalisa accomplished anything.
 

 

How could he possibly be 100% sure that anyone is not a DF.

 

Having a tiny group increases the odds dramatically of a successful operation by DFs to steal the Horn if 1 out of a group of 4 is a DF then a surprise attack could work. If you have 50 men go what are the odds of having more than 5 or 6 DFs at the very worst.

 

So no scouts, no intelligence, nothing. Just more incompetence.

 

So now you are saying that Amalisa and the 2 nameless channelers are so useless that they could achieve nothing as part of the horn guard. If there power was enough to take out only 100 of the trollocs then they are a enormous value to a small strike unit. And surely if Algemar is going to trust any person in the castle it would be Amalisa and so entrusting her with the Horn would be a obvious choice.

 

You are constantly twisting logic to fit the illogical.

[KakitaOCU]

5 minutes ago, Mailman said:

How could he possibly be 100% sure that anyone is not a DF.

Shall I rephrase as "Full confident they are loyal"?   Sure, factually nothing is ever 100% unless it's factually verified.  But that wasn't my intent and you latching onto this is a show that you're not interesting debating the actual point.

Also, I didn't suddenly twist my logic re: Amalisa and the two nameless channelers.  They would have accomplished nothing without Nynaeve and Egwene.  The three of them together were drawing less power than Moraine by herself and she was hard pressed to handle Winters Night with help against just Trollocs.  2 fades would have ripped through them the same as they did the guards.

[Mailman]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Shall I rephrase as "Full confident they are loyal"?   Sure, factually nothing is ever 100% unless it's factually verified.  But that wasn't my intent and you latching onto this is a show that you're not interesting debating the actual point.

Also, I didn't suddenly twist my logic re: Amalisa and the two nameless channelers.  They would have accomplished nothing without Nynaeve and Egwene.  The three of them together were drawing less power than Moraine by herself and she was hard pressed to handle Winters Night with help against just Trollocs.  2 fades would have ripped through them the same as they did the guards.

Stop twisting. How is saying "Full confident they are loyal" any different from your initial statement. If they where DFs they are obviously not loyal.

 

I am not getting into a strawman argument about the validity of using 100% as being factually impossible to verify.

 

My point is exactly that because if he suspects DFs then sending increased numbers reduces the chance of DFs stealing the Horn. You give the greater chance of success by sending more soldiers unless you are arguing that the majority of the humans are DFs.

 

There where 100s of fades with the trolloc force that they destroyed. Coupled with soldiers to help defend the channlers you are still saying they would have had no value. This makes no sense.

 

If Amalisa and the 2 nameless channelers could achieve absolutely nothing what was the point of them standing against the trolloc force. Again you make no sense.

 

By your calculations you are making Nynaeve more than 100 times more powerful than Moiraine. 

 

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Andra said:

The entire point of this topic is comparisons between the show and the books, and how the show could have done it better than it did.  Given that, the comparison is completely valid.

 

40 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

The broader point yes.  This particular issue is about the Horn.

Yes.  The particular issue of how they could have done the horn better than they did.  Which is what everyone talking about it is doing.

 

42 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

If your argument was "they should have just left it unknown like in the books"  you'd have an argument.  But instead you said "Having it lost in a place where the Shadow can find it isn't any worse than not knowing where it is at all."   That's only a fair comparison if both were options IN universe.  They aren't.  The options were trying to get it to safety or leaving it to fall to the shadow, those were the only two options.  So you can't compare the third option that was not on the table in universe for these people.}

Neither of those were my argument.

My argument is that leaving it safely where the Shadow doesn't know about it is better than bringing it out in the open in circumstances that insufficiently protected it from getting into the hands of darkfriends they already knew were around.

 

If the show still decided it had to be dug up and moved, it would have been better (as others in this thread have said) to protect it with a large enough force that a couple of darkfriends - even with Fades - could just walk up and take it from them.

Failing that, it would have been better to leave it where it was, because the Shadow didn't know about it yet (as far as they had any reason to suspect.)

 

We don't know it right now, because the show hasn't said it yet, but we can guess that the only reason Fain knew to come for it is because Ingtar told someone.  And the only reason Ingtar would have known to tell someone is because Agelmar told him he wanted it moved.  

 

If Agelmar doesn't make that decision, the Shadow never hears about it.

 

In the book, no one - neither the Light nor the Shadow - knew where it was until it was found in the Eye.  At that point, keeping it a secret became a problem.  A straightforward and unforeseeable risk that there was little time to address, but still wasn't ignored.

In the show, the risk was absolutely foreseeable, yet was ignored until it was too late to address.

 

Keeping the Horn in a place as close to the Blight as Fal Dara was inherently and unnecessarily risky.  Moving it under the circumstances shown was inherently and unnecessarily risky.  The need to bodge together a solution as bad as the one in the show was created by the changes the show made in the first place.  Changes it didn't have to make.

 

 

 

Incidentally, you really need to stop paraphrasing people, then claiming the paraphrase is what they actually said.  You keep doing it wrong.