Balthamel and the Gender Binary Conundrum

[Storeebooq]

[quote broke but this is in response to Jayden Gore’s post]
Oh, I see we get one franchise and we are great. 
 

Anywho, I was just giving a small example of how a show could further explore gender nonconformity and stay closer to canon binary concepts. We know the show won’t go there anyways so there’s no need for all of that extra hypothesizing. Especially when it is somewhat invalidating. 
 

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Storeebooq

[Kazhvar]

On 12/11/2021 at 7:08 PM, Tom alapostropheThor said:

I think everyone is pretty aware by now that there are a lot of people who have some problems with how Rafe Judkins has changed the story. One of the major changes, that the Dragon Reborn could be female, seems to be motivated by our modern understanding of gender. Judkins, if I'm understanding him correctly, has a problem with the idea that men and women are fundamentally different in some very key ways. Only women can access saidar and only men can access saidin. Although the show has not tinkered with that concept, they have changed the idea of the Dragon that makes it seem like they wish they could.

 

But here's the thing. Jordan created a character, Balthamel, who shows that it isn't a person's reproductive organs that dictate which side of the True Source they can access. Balthamel is a person who identifies as a male and was assigned male at birth. He accesses saidin. When he is killed and placed into the body of Aran'gar, who has female reproductive organs, he still accesses saidin.

 

That teases the possibility that there might be transgender female channelers who could access saidar and transgender male channelers who could access saidin. It's also not a stretch to suggest that some channelers could access both sides of the Source. 

 

There are ways to incorporate more modern sensibilities into old stories that actually work in a world building sense. And then there's the way Judkins is handling it. His take is to just add the modern sensibilities without making them work because audiences are too lazy to care. 

 

 

This was done specifically as punishment and not as part of the reincarnation of souls. It's been stated by RJ that the souls are gender bound which removes the idea of a female dragon regardless of punishments. I guess if the DR decided to fight for shai'tan then theoretically shai'tan could punish the DR for bad performance on the battlefield by putting him in a female body or something but that would be highly unlikely as well as a bit ridiculous for the role of the DR

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, Storeebooq said:

[quote broke but this is in response to Jayden Gore’s post]
Oh, I see we get one franchise and we are great. 
 

Anywho, I was just giving a small example of how a show could further explore gender nonconformity and stay closer to canon binary concepts. We know the show won’t go there anyways so there’s no need for all of that extra hypothesizing. Especially when it is somewhat invalidating. 
 

 

I'm sorry you think I was trying to invalidate you. I was not saying you only get one series, and that's it; I'm not saying non-binary stories aren't worth exploring, all I was trying to say was that to retrofit a non-binary model and meaningful story arc into the Wheel of Time mythos and structure would be a monumental task to tell the story with the respect it deserves, when they're already having problems adapting the story that already exists.

 

 

[ForsakenPotato]

I think there's also lots of opportunity for the show to have gender non-conforming characters who don't channel. That would be a good solution to increase representation while staying away from some of the stickier questions related to the One Power.

 

Lots of folks already seem up in arms about the possibility that Min may be even less gender-conforming than in the books. But if they want to introduce nonbinary or trans characters I think it Min would be a good one to do it with, different pronouns could be used without the plot needing to be significantly changed or any extra hand-waving about channeling. Some of the audience would applaud this change for being more progressive, others would find it upsetting because it's different from the books and would make Rand less straight. Personally I think it could work (or they could do it so poorly that both progressives and conservatives will be offended) but we'll find out soon!

[KakitaOCU]

On 12/12/2021 at 6:24 AM, Tom alapostropheThor said:

You're upset that I would suggest that something Moridin did is similar to something the Nazis did? You get that he's super evil, right?

 

Regardless of whether Jordan thought of this as a punishment, I still think that in 2021 it could be presented as evidence that Aran'gar's true identity was male, regardless of the body parts he had.

 

On a personal level, I firmly believe that I would be happy in a body assigned female at birth as much as I am in a body assigned male at birth. That is to say, on the gender spectrum I don't feel a strong tie to the male gender.

 

That's part of what forms my opinion about the character and also why I never saw this as a punishment. And if it was intended as a punishment, it didn't work, because Aran'gar eventually grows to accept the female body. This is not a case of misgendering a person. It's an opportunity to explore gender identity.

I was actually about to say I think Aran'gar HAS to go away because it can be read to suggest that your soul adapts to your body meaning that someone being trans is against nature.  

BUT, reading your comment, I think we could easily go the opposite direction and make it clear that Balthamael was always a woman but never came out as trans.

What if Balthamael's womanizing, obsession with beauty, etc was because he deeply felt and related to a woman's form and body but maybe accepting transgender was something AoL couldn't handle.  There were gaps in what the AoL could and couldn't do (Afterall, Nynaeve learns two types of healing that AoL people stare at and go "Wait, what?!?!")

That said, I sadly don't think it'll come up in the same way.  Balthamael has no purpose in the narrative and so I don't think we'll see him at the Eye.  Aran'gar can easily be a female forsaken inverting and masking her ability.

[Spiritweaver1]

The thought occurs to me when reading the very thoughtful discussion in this thread is that discussing social issues (gender identity) together with metaphysics, even fictional metaphysics, needs to be done lubricated by some substance or other.  Nobody on this forum has been able to prove that in general souls are reborn in RJ's universe.  It is stated in two spots that only the hero's of the horn are bound to the wheel t to be spun out over and over.  One source is Hawkwing and the other is Birgitte who says that the hero's do not die as other people do.   What we do know is that the hero's are reborn as themselves with the same sex over and over through not just one turning of the wheel but many.  

Back a ways in this thread somebody said that perhaps the ability to channel was based on your position on the spectrum of maleness or femaleness.   I really like this notion because my IRL philosophy is that gender identity is a continuum and clearly there needs to be a place for everybody in that continuum.   However the story under discussion is about the tensions and relationships of the primary dualities of Randland.  Male and female and good and evil.  One of the strong points of the show was bringing up the ending of suffering as the (a?) goal of the big bad.  At least that is what the DO is clearly telling his DF followers.  This echo's TMOL.  There we see what a world without duality looks like.  It is far too early to tell what metaphysics of Rafeland will be.  There is mass misdirection going on to try and stir up buzz and discussion (is it working?) so metaphysical clarification is completely missing as probably it should be.

 

Whoa sorry folks this went on a bit too much and is a bit off topic.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Spiritweaver1
clean up spelling and punctuation and add clarification of intent

[Storeebooq]

3 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

I think there's also lots of opportunity for the show to have gender non-conforming characters who don't channel. That would be a good solution to increase representation while staying away from some of the stickier questions related to the One Power.

 

Lots of folks already seem up in arms about the possibility that Min may be even less gender-conforming than in the books. But if they want to introduce nonbinary or trans characters I think it Min would be a good one to do it with, different pronouns could be used without the plot needing to be significantly changed or any extra hand-waving about channeling. Some of the audience would applaud this change for being more progressive, others would find it upsetting because it's different from the books and would make Rand less straight. Personally I think it could work (or they could do it so poorly that both progressives and conservatives will be offended) but we'll find out soon!

If they actually had Min as a transgender character, that would be amazing turn of events as far as I'm concerned. I think it could also work out really well and wouldn't effect the main story line. Especially if they made it subtle and just a de-facto and not-so bit thing:

Min: I'm transgender

Rand: Wow, cool. Hey, have you read this latest version of Jain Farstrider?"

Min: wut?

 

?

[Blues do what]

It'd be interesting to see a non-binary or transgender channeler in the show, someone male-bodied who channels Saidar or vice versa. I think it would bring up a lot of problems, but the good kind of problems. Maybe the Reds don't accept transwomen, and that's another division within the Aes Sedai. Or the organization as a whole rejects anyone male-bodied even if they can channel Saidar, and this helps to show another side to the White Tower, how the Aes Sedai are parochial and inflexible, that they're unable to reform even as they recognize their slow decline.

It could show how the coming of the Dragon Reborn and the destruction of the old order brings not just war and chaos, but also positive change and growth. Previously downtrodden or marginalized groups gain some access to power. Refugees fleeing the chaos bring unprecedented cultural exchange. Even the Aes Sedai are forced to reexamine many of their traditions, recruiting as novices women who would previously have been rejected as too old. The existence of gender nonconforming people is something that could be integrated into the existing world and add depth and character.

I'm kind of assuming that channeling works the same way it does in the books, with Saidar and Saidin being two halves of one whole, but for all I know, they might've changed that so men and women channel the same power. I don't remember hearing anyone say Saidin, Saidar, or even something like "the male half of the source" so far. Either way, they've told us that all men who can channel go mad, and that brings up the question of who counts as a man.

Given all the other changes the show writers have made so far, I have to believe this is something they've thought of. Maybe they'll sidestep the issue somehow, but if they do bring it up, I think they can do it in a way that adds to the world Robert Jordan built while still being true to it.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

2 hours ago, Blues do what said:

It'd be interesting to see a non-binary or transgender channeler in the show, someone male-bodied who channels Saidar or vice versa. I think it would bring up a lot of problems, but the good kind of problems. Maybe the Reds don't accept transwomen, and that's another division within the Aes Sedai. Or the organization as a whole rejects anyone male-bodied even if they can channel Saidar, and this helps to show another side to the White Tower, how the Aes Sedai are parochial and inflexible, that they're unable to reform even as they recognize their slow decline.

It could show how the coming of the Dragon Reborn and the destruction of the old order brings not just war and chaos, but also positive change and growth. Previously downtrodden or marginalized groups gain some access to power. Refugees fleeing the chaos bring unprecedented cultural exchange. Even the Aes Sedai are forced to reexamine many of their traditions, recruiting as novices women who would previously have been rejected as too old. The existence of gender nonconforming people is something that could be integrated into the existing world and add depth and character.

I'm kind of assuming that channeling works the same way it does in the books, with Saidar and Saidin being two halves of one whole, but for all I know, they might've changed that so men and women channel the same power. I don't remember hearing anyone say Saidin, Saidar, or even something like "the male half of the source" so far. Either way, they've told us that all men who can channel go mad, and that brings up the question of who counts as a man.

Given all the other changes the show writers have made so far, I have to believe this is something they've thought of. Maybe they'll sidestep the issue somehow, but if they do bring it up, I think they can do it in a way that adds to the world Robert Jordan built while still being true to it.

Episode 4 confirmed that female source channeling persons do not see male source channeling persons weaves, they only feel the effect of them when directly opposed (Logain pushing against the shield).  The distinct parts is also confirmed in the bonus material.

 

As to the first point if we assume that male bodied persons who channel the female source exist in this world and that Aes Sedai do not recognise this then we have to conclude that no one is going to test or train such persons - so the only persons who end up in this position are those with the power inborn who survive their initial touching.  Very few individuals would occur like this (perhaps 1 in all the westlands at any given time), some of whom might not even consciously admit to themselves they can channel.   Any who do will think they are men who can channel (hence doomed to madness and death) and either hide or suicide to deal with this - possibly even suffering some form of "normal" madness from the stress of the situation.  Only if such an individual made the choice to seek out Aes Sedai and request gentling (and channel for them to prove this was needed) or accidentally channel near an Aes Sedai would be noted as using the female source - an unlikely contingency even in 3,000 years of history, and if it did occur there is a reasonable choice that the Aes Sedai concerned would hush it up.

 

Perhaps changing the female channeling perception in the show (from feeling the potential even in those who need training or are yet to channel to only perceiving the person when they actually embrace the source - like men do with male source channelers) is to remove the need to deal with this in the show (although the feeling could just be mistaken for being attracted to the individual since this is only described in the books when the 3 accepted meet Avienda and feel a connection to her which they do not recognise as her channeling potential until Moiraine confirms this.

 

PS given the book Aes Sedai reliance on certain rituals in the nude (notably tests for accepted) and shared rooms for novices it would be very difficult for a person to simply pass for female and be trained.

Edited December 14, 2021 by bringbackthomsmoustache
added Ps

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Jordan was a feminist in the 90's... but then again so was J.K. Rowling, and look where that got her. 

 

Rafe has been pretty free with expression his belief that his current progressive interpretation of WoT's gender themes is how RJ would have done it had he written the story today. I think this is gross, but I get the temptation to want to put words in the mouths of dead people you respect in order to justify your own beliefs. This happens all the time. I get it. 

 

However, I think it's just as likely that RJ could have turned out like JK Rowling, that he would have stuck with his ideas about a clear divide within the genders that such a divide was actually necessary in order to truly empower women. He obviously really cared about those ideas, and I think it's certainly hasty to think that he would have just abandoned them. Not impossible, but hasty. 

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

20 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

I was actually about to say I think Aran'gar HAS to go away because it can be read to suggest that your soul adapts to your body meaning that someone being trans is against nature.  

BUT, reading your comment, I think we could easily go the opposite direction and make it clear that Balthamael was always a woman but never came out as trans.

I think a much, much easier solution is just to stick with the books and stop confusing a fantasy world with reality. 

 

I don't understand how it's so easy for us to accept that people in Randland can channel a mystical power and are reborn time and time again in an unending circle but we can't just say, "The gender binary is a thing in this universe" and accept it. 

 

It's just a show. It's fantasy. It's not real, and it has NO obligation to reflect reality. Again, no one is saying, "That's not how metaphysics work!" with regards to the Wheel and reincarnation, but as soon as we get to the gender stuff everyone loses their minds. 

 

"Problematic" has become the new heresy, and everything has to conform to its standards or be burned at the stake. 

[KakitaOCU]

7 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

I don't understand how it's so easy for us to accept that people in Randland can channel a mystical power and are reborn time and time again in an unending circle but we can't just say, "The gender binary is a thing in this universe" and accept it. 

Because no real life magic users are being oppressed, marginalized or mistreated because of how fantasy books portray magic.  

If you think there's some line to be drawn between How completely fictional situations are shown versus how marginalized people are represented I don't know what to say.

 

44 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Jordan was a feminist in the 90's... but then again so was J.K. Rowling, and look where that got her. 

 

...

 

However, I think it's just as likely that RJ could have turned out like JK Rowling, that he would have stuck with his ideas about a clear divide within the genders that such a divide was actually necessary in order to truly empower women. He obviously really cared about those ideas, and I think it's certainly hasty to think that he would have just abandoned them. Not impossible, but hasty. 

 

Is... is your argument that you think RJ would turn out to be a scummy person IRL and so we shouldn't entertain the notion he wasn't or that the story can be told in a new way?

Edited December 14, 2021 by KakitaOCU

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

 

6 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

If you think there's some line to be drawn between How completely fictional situations are shown versus how marginalized people are represented I don't know what to say.

 

Fiction is fiction. Reality is reality. Next thing you're gonna tell me that playing Call of Duty is going to make me a serial killer. Don't your hands ever get tired of clutching those pearls? 

 

7 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Is... is your argument that you think RJ would turn out to be a scummy person IRL and so we shouldn't entertain the notion he wasn't or that the story can be told in a new way?

I'm saying that since RJ is in fact dead we don't know how he would have turned out. So Rafe defending his decisions by saying that RJ would have done them himself is definitely putting the wagon in front of the horse. I would respect Rafe more if he'd just been honest and said that he's making changes to suit his own personal tastes. Read, my dude. Read and think. It's good for you. 

[Elder_Haman]

Nope. Nope. Nope. This conversation is headed in exactly the wrong direction. Locked.