Balthamel and the Gender Binary Conundrum

[Tom alapostropheThor]

I think everyone is pretty aware by now that there are a lot of people who have some problems with how Rafe Judkins has changed the story. One of the major changes, that the Dragon Reborn could be female, seems to be motivated by our modern understanding of gender. Judkins, if I'm understanding him correctly, has a problem with the idea that men and women are fundamentally different in some very key ways. Only women can access saidar and only men can access saidin. Although the show has not tinkered with that concept, they have changed the idea of the Dragon that makes it seem like they wish they could.

 

But here's the thing. Jordan created a character, Balthamel, who shows that it isn't a person's reproductive organs that dictate which side of the True Source they can access. Balthamel is a person who identifies as a male and was assigned male at birth. He accesses saidin. When he is killed and placed into the body of Aran'gar, who has female reproductive organs, he still accesses saidin.

 

That teases the possibility that there might be transgender female channelers who could access saidar and transgender male channelers who could access saidin. It's also not a stretch to suggest that some channelers could access both sides of the Source. 

 

There are ways to incorporate more modern sensibilities into old stories that actually work in a world building sense. And then there's the way Judkins is handling it. His take is to just add the modern sensibilities without making them work because audiences are too lazy to care. 

 

 

[JenniferL]

Alright, let’s give this one a chance. 
 

I think you make a good argument here about whether you channel saidar or saidin is a matter of your true self, not what your body looks like. Jordan included Aran’gar as an example of “wrongness” and the Dark One upending the natural order of things. It’s not really something you can put in a TV show these days. The easiest way to handle it is to sidestep the issue altogether and not have the ‘gars at all. And if Rafe decides to put a trans channeler in the series, have it be a new character. 

[Gothic Flame]

Ya...the Dark One is the only one that mixed and matched souls with differing bodies. 

Bear in mind that the Dark One can't create. He's responsible for trollocs, fades (the Neverborn), Red-veiled Aiel, he twists and tortures that which was already created.

Balthamel's switcheroo was no favor.

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

7 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Ya...the Dark One is the only one that mixed and matched souls with differing bodies. 

Bear in mind that the Dark One can't create. He's responsible for trollocs, fades (the Neverborn), Red-veiled Aiel, he twists and tortures that which was already created.

Balthamel's switcheroo was no favor.

More precisely the DO does not create at all, he only tears down.  His servants are responsible for using the power he can grant to create the shadowspawn and their aweful "conversion therapy" method of making dreadlords.

[Tom alapostropheThor]

I don't agree that Aran'gar is intended to be a wrongness that the Dark One implements. First of all, it seems like the decision to use a female body was more of a Moridin decision, and since we know that Ishmael was a philosopher, it's likely that he made the decision as a kind of social experiment and not just a I'm messing with you mindset. 

 

Regardless, I think this was an opportunity for the writers that was missed. They're trying to push a philosophy that I happen to agree with, but they're doing it badly.

[Storeebooq]

In the books, I don't think RJ was ready or had the understanding to think beyond strict binary oppositions of gender and power, bless his heart. And I'm okay with that for the books. 

 

I agree, that just copy/pasting the Aran'gar fiasco into the show would be a huge problem. It's problematic in the books itself, but I don't think is given enough screentime to impact the whole story. 

 

I think it would have been amazing for Rafe to actually change up the binary essentialism to Saidin and Saidar that is in the books and refresh it with our modern understanding. As a trans nonbinary person myself, I would have screamed with excitement. But...I don't think the WoT audience at large is ready for that. We have already see how complaint there is with his current changes. 

 

I once even posted in the Facebook Wheel of Time group, with many thousands of members, about a similar thing. Asking people if RJ had written the books later, and had had a more updated understanding of Saidin/Saidar and it's connection to gender/sex/biology/souls, how would having transgender wielders go. I was attacked. I had hundreds of messages in my FB inbox with very horrid hateful messages. I had to leave the group and change my profile settings so I couldn't get messages from strangers. 

 

So yeah....too bad. 

[JenniferL]

Jordan considered himself a feminist and was a pretty progressive guy, considering his background. So I do think some of the things that “didn’t age well” in the books would be different if he started the series today. On the other hand, duality is an important theme of the series and a non-binary gender spectrum doesn’t really fit into that. 

[Storeebooq]

4 minutes ago, JenniferL said:

Jordan considered himself a feminist and was a pretty progressive guy, considering his background. So I do think some of the things that “didn’t age well” in the books would be different if he started the series today. On the other hand, duality is an important theme of the series and a non-binary gender spectrum doesn’t really fit into that. 

Yeah, it would have been an entirely different story and series. 

 

I think the closest Rafe could come later in the show is introducing an "Asha'man" who is actually a transgender woman. Or a transgender man who suddenly asked to be trained by the Tower, Wise Women, or Sea Folk, that will be something amazing. These are some of the small fan fictions I've written in my head as I re-read the books. But again, these would probably be too hard to write in well and probably would cause hate. 

 

[dorotea]

1 hour ago, JenniferL said:

On the other hand, duality is an important theme of the series and a non-binary gender spectrum doesn’t really fit into that. 

Easy solution. Since the source is not easily accessible by everybody regardless of their binarity/spectrumity ( my impression is 99 % of the population cannot touch it) and since it is pretty much tied to a yinyang divide, make it tidal. If your personal tide is not strong enough to pull you to either side you won't be able to touch the One Power. (There is always a True Source too.  ? )

[Gothic Flame]

It's not a problem that needs a solution.

[Nehsray]

Arangar and osangar were punished by the dark one. Ishamael/bealzemum/Moridin (just a theory) are the one time the dragon went to the DO. I believe lews therrin had a three part soul that’s why when in shaoul ghoul when their bael fire crossed they were connected. They were already connected as opposites, but lews therrins soul was corrupted causing an imbalance towards the dark one. The land is one with the dragon, the dragon is one with the land. The dragon is the true seal on the dark ones prison and there is proof it was broken by the bore and mashidar. Sorry bout spelling. 

[Nehsray]

Sorry way off topic. 

[Asha'man Shar'aman]

4 hours ago, Tom alapostropheThor said:

That teases the possibility that there might be transgender female channelers who could access saidar and transgender male channelers who could access saidin. It's also not a stretch to suggest that some channelers could access both sides of the Source. 

In the show, maybe. In the books though, it's an almost certain no. I believe in the WoT Companion, it says that which side of the OP you access is determined by the gender of your soul. So the Dragon, who has a male soul, will always channel saidin, even if the Wheel were to somehow place him in a female body. The reason Aran'gar could channel saidin was because the soul was originally male, the DO just placed it in a female body. So even if you were a trans channeler (assuming you have a gendered soul that corresponds to your birth sex (so male to Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB) and female to Assigned Female At Birth (AFAB)) you would still channel the half of the Power corresponding to your soul's gender. For example, if you are a trans man, you would still channel saidar, because the Wheel placed a "female" soul into a biologically female body. 

 

There was a discussion I started about gender fluid channeling here and people said similar things to what I said above, so there's that if you want to check it out. 

 

It's something I wish was different in the books, and that OP access was determined by gender and not your soul, but unfortunately with the time these books were written, that doesn't seem to be an in-world possibility. 

[DojoToad]

11 hours ago, Tom alapostropheThor said:

I don't agree that Aran'gar is intended to be a wrongness that the Dark One implements. First of all, it seems like the decision to use a female body was more of a Moridin decision, and since we know that Ishmael was a philosopher, it's likely that he made the decision as a kind of social experiment and not just a I'm messing with you mindset. 

 

Regardless, I think this was an opportunity for the writers that was missed. They're trying to push a philosophy that I happen to agree with, but they're doing it badly.

I hope you're kidding.  This sounds like stuff the Nazi's did.

 

Let's put a soul/consciousness that identifies as male into a body with female plumbing and see what happens - as a social experiment.  There is no moral right or wrong, just science.  Same with 'creation' of trollocs, fades and other shadow spawn - progress Baby!!!

 

The Forsaken looked at these experiments dispassionately, but the majority in the AoL (and the 3rd age) did not - which is why they are outcast and labeled as they were.

 

Whether Aginor, Moridin or the DO making the changes I believe Jordan wanted us to see this as disgusting perversions.  Even if that was not his intent - I see all this as perversion.

[Tom alapostropheThor]

You're upset that I would suggest that something Moridin did is similar to something the Nazis did? You get that he's super evil, right?

 

Regardless of whether Jordan thought of this as a punishment, I still think that in 2021 it could be presented as evidence that Aran'gar's true identity was male, regardless of the body parts he had.

 

On a personal level, I firmly believe that I would be happy in a body assigned female at birth as much as I am in a body assigned male at birth. That is to say, on the gender spectrum I don't feel a strong tie to the male gender.

 

That's part of what forms my opinion about the character and also why I never saw this as a punishment. And if it was intended as a punishment, it didn't work, because Aran'gar eventually grows to accept the female body. This is not a case of misgendering a person. It's an opportunity to explore gender identity.

[DojoToad]

2 minutes ago, Tom alapostropheThor said:

You're upset that I would suggest that something Moridin did is similar to something the Nazis did? You get that he's super evil, right?

 

Regardless of whether Jordan thought of this as a punishment, I still think that in 2021 it could be presented as evidence that Aran'gar's true identity was male, regardless of the body parts he had.

 

On a personal level, I firmly believe that I would be happy in a body assigned female at birth as much as I am in a body assigned male at birth. That is to say, on the gender spectrum I don't feel a strong tie to the male gender.

 

That's part of what forms my opinion about the character and also why I never saw this as a punishment. And if it was intended as a punishment, it didn't work, because Aran'gar eventually grows to accept the female body. This is not a case of misgendering a person. It's an opportunity to explore gender identity.

No, I'm upset that you don't think the 'creation' of Aran'gar was intended to be bad/evil - but a social experiment.  Am I misinterpreting what you're saying?  Because it read to me that you were justifying the gender swap as a decision made by a philosopher with no moral ramifications.  Sounds a lot like Nazi reasoning when they were experimenting on people.

 

To be clear - not accusing you of having any specific leanings/beliefs.  But your statement obviously got me fired up as I don't believe it was well thought out.

 

Please correct me. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

2 hours ago, Tom alapostropheThor said:

You're upset that I would suggest that something Moridin did is similar to something the Nazis did? You get that he's super evil, right?

 

Regardless of whether Jordan thought of this as a punishment, I still think that in 2021 it could be presented as evidence that Aran'gar's true identity was male, regardless of the body parts he had.

 

On a personal level, I firmly believe that I would be happy in a body assigned female at birth as much as I am in a body assigned male at birth. That is to say, on the gender spectrum I don't feel a strong tie to the male gender.

 

That's part of what forms my opinion about the character and also why I never saw this as a punishment. And if it was intended as a punishment, it didn't work, because Aran'gar eventually grows to accept the female body. This is not a case of misgendering a person. It's an opportunity to explore gender identity.

Expand  

No, I'm upset that you don't think the 'creation' of Aran'gar was intended to be bad/evil - but a social experiment.  Am I misinterpreting what you're saying?  Because it read to me that you were justifying the gender swap as a decision made by a philosopher with no moral ramifications.  Sounds a lot like Nazi reasoning when they were experimenting on people.

 

To be clear - not accusing you of having any specific leanings/beliefs.  But your statement obviously got me fired up as I don't believe it was well thought out.

 

Please correct me. 

I can never resist an invitation to correct someone.

The point (which is often made by actors talking about their roles as the "villain" of a piece) is that no one actually sets out to be evil, sits down and designs a plan to inflict evil on people.  Everyone is the hero of their own story and has their own motivations (even if it is as simple as "I do this because I am a sadist who enjoys the suffering of others" - they don't do it for the sake of the suffering but for the enjoyment).

We are left with the point that the choice of a female "host" was made for reasons that appeared good to the chooser - it could be as simple as "we have these 3 available forsaken to recycle, so what if they all happen to be male our plans require a female infiltrator so tough".  

There may have been an element of "and lets pick the bodies and missions to punish these failures" - if so this backfired as this person started to enjoy the experience.

The forsaken are essentially amoral - having no discernible conscience or ethical restraints.  In my view likewise the DO 

Spoiler

who is less a personification of evil and more a personification of entropy, desiring as he does the ultimate dissolution of time (the use of suffering is a negotiating technique to back the dragon into the trap of the DO's "compromise" of just ending things).  The evil is mainly caused by the human servants who do not have the scientific of philosophical grounding to understand this, except Moridin.

 

[Gothic Flame]

59 minutes ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I can never resist an invitation to correct someone.

The point (which is often made by actors talking about their roles as the "villain" of a piece) is that no one actually sets out to be evil, sits down and designs a plan to inflict evil on people.  Everyone is the hero of their own story and has their own motivations (even if it is as simple as "I do this because I am a sadist who enjoys the suffering of others" - they don't do it for the sake of the suffering but for the enjoyment).

We are left with the point that the choice of a female "host" was made for reasons that appeared good to the chooser - it could be as simple as "we have these 3 available forsaken to recycle, so what if they all happen to be male our plans require a female infiltrator so tough".  

There may have been an element of "and lets pick the bodies and missions to punish these failures" - if so this backfired as this person started to enjoy the experience.

The forsaken are essentially amoral - having no discernible conscience or ethical restraints.  In my view likewise the DO 

  Hide contents

The evil is mainly caused by the human servants who do not have the scientific of philosophical grounding to understand this, except Moridin.

 

The "evil" comes into play as opposition to the Creator. 

If one is born in a "different body then it needs to by the Creator's will...not the Dark One's who only can twist what was already created.

[Jaysen Gore]

My opinion on this is they avoid it like the plague in the series.

- There is only one example in the book of this mis-gendered soul / body relationship and that one a twisted creation of the Dark One.

- It's a political landmine that would completely sideswipe everything else in the series and overwhelm any marketing discussions, especially globally, for the rest of the series. 

- It would be incredibly difficult to handle the ramifications in the time they have without either tokenism, or ramming it in where it doesn't fit.

- It doesn't impact any of the top 3 tiers of characters in the story 

 

This would have been a really great topic to explore as a short story or spin off novel, the way McCaffrey did with some small ideas on Pern. But it's way too messy a topic to handle as a tertiary subplot in the 60 hours remaining.

 

Off topic, the better place for this to be handled is where it should have been in the first place - The Matrix: Resurrections. They pulled away from the topic in the first one, but times have changed enough, and it's more important to the directors, so let's explore it there.

[Jaysen Gore]

Wait - I had a thought on this topic:

 

Spoiler

They could do something with the personality merge / swap with Androl and Pevara, since that could involve cross-gender channelling via the integrated soul of the double bond.

 

[Storeebooq]

I feel that at the core of the problems with Aran'gar in the books was that it was not taken seriously as a man re-woken into a woman's body, and then exploring deeply what that could mean for their identity, the world, etc. I'll tell you from personal experience and lived experience from my other transgender partners, this kind of reflection is life-long, complicated, world shaking, sometimes traumatic, and definitely comes with shifting of power dynamics.

 

Instead, Bethamel's approach was misogynistic and opportunistic. Bethamel leaned into characteristics of women he felt would continue to gather him power, etc. He did not re-evaluate his views deeply. It was as if he was put in 24/7 drag (specifically, a cis-gender man constantly wearing popularized feminine dress, behaviors, and roles).  Additionally, it was used as a spy technique for the Dark One. It was weaponized and a plot device. 

 

Also, the book didn't explore why it would be seen as "punishment" to be gender swapped. That itself is problematic. It's just taken as de-facto. 

 

I don't think RJ was capable of writing a genuine evaluation of gender-swap when he wrote, so not faulting him. There were limitations to RJ's feministic views, as we've had decades of development since he first started writing.

 

If they literally copy/pasted the same scenario from the books into the show, there would assuredly be critique from all the gender-nonconforming community, me included. 

[Spiritweaver1]

17 hours ago, Storeebooq said:

 

I think it would have been amazing for Rafe to actually change up the binary essentialism to Saidin and Saidar that is in the books and refresh it with our modern understanding. As a trans nonbinary person myself, I would have screamed with excitement. But...I don't think the WoT audience at large is ready for that. We have already see how complaint there is with his current changes. 

 

 

I really have to take exception to this part of your discussion.  Saidin and Saidar were made up by RJ as deliberately dual and separated aspects of the one power.  This ties into the dualism inherent in his treatment of light and dark.  I seriously doubt if he was writing today that he would change a thing about the basic differences between Saidar and Saidin.  If he did it would not be the same story for sure. One of the key points is that saidar and saidin channelers working together are more powerful than either singularly.  From a metaphysical standpoint he writes indirectly that the soul is gendered and the ability to channel is via the soul.   This is his universe and he can create it as he sees fit.    

 

I would be interested in how you think he should have treated the one power?  What would be different?

 

 

 

[Storeebooq]

Like we've mentioned before, yes, it would have to be a totally different story to take out the essential binding of Saidar/Women and Saidin/Men out of the story that RJ wrote. 

 

However, you can still explore gender variation and what comes along with it to make commentary on current understandings of gender and non-confirming gender identities and bodies.  

 

The examples I gave of a transgender woman joining the Asha'man group would be an example. You would have a woman who can channel Saidin. This wouldn't disrupt RJ's essential binary system, because theoretically she was born in a body that was assigned male at birth. It would have a connection to a soul bound to Saidin. Later, as she came to better understand her gender, she would retain her connection to Saidin.

 

This wouldn't disrupt the system, rather, it would expand on it and modernize the story to reflect what's going on currently. But if they did this for the show, they would need transgender or gender-nonconforming writers because the last thing we need are more cis-gendered writers interpreting the trans experience through their eyes. Just sayin.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Storeebooq

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, Storeebooq said:

Like we've mentioned before, yes, it would have to be a totally different story to take out the essential binding of Saidar/Women and Saidin/Men out of the story that RJ wrote. 

 

However, you can still explore gender variation and what comes along with it to make commentary on current understandings of gender and non-confirming gender identities and bodies.  

 

The examples I gave of a transgender woman joining the Asha'man group would be an example. You would have a woman who can channel Saidin. This wouldn't disrupt RJ's essential binary system, because theoretically she was born in a body that was assigned male at birth. It would have a connection to a soul bound to Saidin. Later, as she came to better understand her gender, she would retain her connection to Saidin.

 

This wouldn't disrupt the system, rather, it would expand on it and modernize the story to reflect what's going on currently. But if they did this for the show, they would need transgender or gender-nonconforming writers because the last thing we need are more cis-gendered writers interpreting the trans experience through their eyes. Just sayin.

Except, if it "a" woman that's tokenism, is it not? So now you need more than one person, and in both directions and on both sides, to show they're no different than anyone else. So that puts many new characters on the table.  And they have to be major roles, to avoid claims of window dressing. So now you really do have a major re-write on your hands - one that would enrage at least 50% of your potential  global audience - look how mad the fans were at Steppin Or S&M. And if, as you say, you don't trust the "CIS-gendered, heteronormative" Hollywood community to do this justice, now you're talking about changes behind the scenes as well. All to create characters and entire plot lines that don't exist in the novels to explore a concept that has nothing to do with the main story being told, and in fact that undercuts the major themes in it.

 

As I highlighted earlier, there is already one major entertainment franchise run by transgendered individuals who focus on the meaning of self-identify, free will, and the divorce of the psychological from the physiological.  It's everything you say you want as a setting for that exploration.  If they choose to do it, great, but Jordan chose not to, and to retcon it in after the fact would I expect be counterproductive to what you're hoping the outcome would be.

Edited December 12, 2021 by Jaysen Gore

[Tom alapostropheThor]

12 hours ago, DojoToad said:

No, I'm upset that you don't think the 'creation' of Aran'gar was intended to be bad/evil - but a social experiment.  Am I misinterpreting what you're saying?  Because it read to me that you were justifying the gender swap as a decision made by a philosopher with no moral ramifications.  Sounds a lot like Nazi reasoning when they were experimenting on people.

 

To be clear - not accusing you of having any specific leanings/beliefs.  But your statement obviously got me fired up as I don't believe it was well thought out.

 

Please correct me. 

I'm sorry that I didn't think it necessary to point out that Moridin is not a good person and his interpretation of moral implications would be necessarily skewed. To be clear: I do not think that Moridin's world view has no moral ramifications. I reject Moridin's philosophy. 

 

As has been pointed out by others in this thread, Moridin did not make decisions based on his desire to do evil. In fact, Moridin, and Ishmael before him, made decisions based on what he thought was good. Just as the Nazis did. They were all dead wrong, but none of them thought of themselves as the villains of their story.

 

If you were meaning that Jordan meant it as a social experiment, I never meant that. I was only ever speculating on Moridin's motivation. But Jordan may have meant it as a starting point for a discussion about gender.

 

I think it's fair to say that even Shai'tan themself did not consider their actions to be evil. There's enough in the text to justify that.