Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[KakitaOCU]

1 minute ago, Raal Gurniss said:

True…..But it came at such a cost! Any battle from here on in is utterly meaningless, just wheel out Nyn or a circle and heal everyone enmasse instantly.

 

One legitimate critique I give to WoT is that it's almost the anti-GoT.  No one can die.  We lose Ingtar as a plot device and then Moraine "dies" in book 5 and then...

Yeah, no major character dies until the last book.  Everyone always miraculously survives or gets healed.

[Ralph]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

One legitimate critique I give to WoT is that it's almost the anti-GoT.  No one can die.  We lose Ingtar as a plot device and then Moraine "dies" in book 5 and then...

Yeah, no major character dies until the last book.  Everyone always miraculously survives or gets healed.

Herid Fel - one of my favourites, despite being a caricature 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Ralph

[KakitaOCU]

Just now, Ralph said:

Herid Fel

 

I was about to say I wouldn't consider him a main character, but he's at least as relevant as Ingtar, so fair.  I don't know that it really impacts the point though?  Do any Primary or Secondary characters go down permanently in the series before AMoL?

[Cauthonfan4]

2 hours ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Writing that is more concerned with getting to the next plot point than with respecting the audience's intelligence.

This is my perspective of the shows magic in general at this point. Seems to be ready to answer whatever they need 

[Truthteller]

15 minutes ago, Ralph said:

The mass Healing scene is way over the top, as I said at the time and I think most would agree. 

 

However, it did achieve the following things story wise (meaning it is not just for a moment of cool) :

 

1) Nynaeve demonstrated to all as a channeller the most powerful in a thousand years. (as in the books).

Remember they removed the ability to sense a fellow channeller so until this point Moiraine only knew (suspected) N could channel bc she listens to the wind. Sarah has promised us they have a very good reason for this change, and we have to wafo. I assume they will have a Forsaken hiding in the camp, and they don't want the Aran'gar sex change for obvious reasons. 

 

2) Showing how Nynaeve reacts to Lan dying, to bring out the developing romance. 

This is why he has to have a mortal wound, though that was the bit I disliked most, and it could have been done without it being his throat slit. 

BTW, did anyone else think Lan cut his own throat with his sword, rather than being hit with shrapnel. That's what it looked like to me. (Yes, yes, Lan diminished etc etc.) 

 

3) Forcing M to consider N as a Dragon candidate, despite her age.

Needed to give an excuse to take her to Fal Dara, although I think would have been better if M had wanted to leave her and the others had insisted on bringing her. 

In the books the reason for taking Eg and N to the Eye were very unconvincing. 

 

4) Allowing the gentling of Logain to be an instant decision not considered and discussed. Important for Ep6. 

 

 

I agree that those are all four story reasons, and yet each of those events make the story worse.  Moreover, these story changes are themselves driven by non-story reasons.

 

1 and 3 are similar reasons , driven by the decision to make a big part of the story arc about who is the dragon and to bring equity to the mystery (a women could be the dragon too).

 

2 is driven by the desire to accelerate the character arcs, which undermines the development of those same characters.

 

4 is driven by the decision to focus on aes Sedai politics.  Why you would want to do that is anybody’s guess?

 

So yes, driven by the story they wanted to tell, but this is a very different and , in my opinion, much worse story, itself driven, not simply in my opinion, by factors themselves extraneous to the story.

[bryce0110]

7 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

I agree that those are all four story reasons, and yet each of those events make the story worse.  Moreover, these story changes are themselves driven by non-story reasons.

 

1 and 3 are similar reasons , driven by the decision to make a big part of the story arc about who is the dragon and to bring equity to the mystery (a women could be the dragon too).

 

2 is driven by the desire to accelerate the character arcs, which undermines the development of those same characters.

 

4 is driven by the decision to focus on aes Sedai politics.  Why you would want to do that is anybody’s guess?

 

So yes, driven by the story they wanted to tell, but this is a very different and , in my opinion, much worse story, itself driven, not simply in my opinion, by factors themselves extraneous to the story.

I do not believe these story points are wholly influenced by factors outside of the story they want to tell. Yes, a female dragon is an outside of the story factor, but it is not necessarily a worse story for it. The idea of a female dragon is an interesting one.

 

The relationship arc of Lan and Nynaeve is not extraneous to the story. Yes it is sped up, but this is likely not because of some outside factor and is simply the story they wanted to tell. Whether you enjoy it or not is up to personal opinion.

 

Aes Sedai politics being brought forward more is simply because one of the core things people enjoyed about the series as a whole was the political intrigue within it. Bringing the politics in earlier is a choice to make this political intrigue theming a bit more consistent and prevalent throughout the entire story. I personally enjoyed the politics we saw, and it does set up many story lines further down the line.

 

Not all of these changes are because of some reasoning outside of the story, and in some cases where it is it's because of an attempt to make certain plotlines consistent throughout the entire series. That does not necessarily make the story worse.

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

1 and 3 are similar reasons , driven by the decision to make a big part of the story arc about who is the dragon and to bring equity to the mystery (a women could be the dragon too).

 

I'd argue establishing Nynaeve as a power is important with or without the Dragon aspect, her being what she is is fairly significant in the series.  So much so that I was confused that she essentially gets sidelined as a combatant in AMoL (though she still gets great moments)

The Dragon thing is opinion at this point, not really a debatable point IMO, some of us like it, some don't.

 

5 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

2 is driven by the desire to accelerate the character arcs, which undermines the development of those same characters.

 

That's not really accelerating character arcs though.  By the end of EotW Lan and Nynaeve have confessed their love for each other but it comes out of nowhere.  This doesn't accelerate, just builds a base for it.

 

6 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

4 is driven by the decision to focus on aes Sedai politics.  Why you would want to do that is anybody’s guess?

 

To show its pettiness and flaws.  To push forward Siuan's arc.  It makes sense narrative wise.

[Cauthonfan4]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

Which is why I am surprised at all the uproar.  While I will not say that the TV series is better than the books, I do not understand what is so brilliant about every character that deviations cause problems.  Is Lan diminished?  I think not.  But then, I don't think Rand is diminished either, so I'm probably in a very small minority in this forum

Because frankly the only character who I think got better from them is in some ways mat. Because they show how much he cares about his family and doesn't just feel like a prankster is his only shtick. That said I hate rhe whole dark road they are forcing on him.

 

The world development is much worse.

The characters almost universally lack development.

The magic system leaves us confused.

And Lan absolutely is diminished. Theh could have given him an actual arc without making him fail at stuff he had no business failing at.

 

Are the books best books ever? No. Like you said. They had issues. And largely I think the show has, instead of fixing issues, added to the issues or made issues worse. 

[Cauthonfan4]

9 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

The idea of a female dragon is an interesting one

In another age? Yes. During this age? No.

It removes the issue of the conflict with the Dragon and the WT.

It removes rhe issue of the Dragon going nuts and breaking the world.

It removes the issue of the Dragon being untrained. 

It removes a large part of the unification of ghe world (AS can just trot out their fully trained female Dragon and bring them to all the kings and queens theu spend time advising and poof, unification).

11 minutes ago, bryce0110 said:

I personally enjoyed the politics we saw, and it does set up many story lines further down the line

How? We literally watched them pull some child level politics.

Mom yelling at kid 1.

Kid 1: but kid 2 did this.

Mom swaps to kid 2 and actually falls for it.

 

If that's good politics to you...

[KakitaOCU]

25 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

How? We literally watched them pull some child level politics.

Mom yelling at kid 1.

Kid 1: but kid 2 did this.

Mom swaps to kid 2 and actually falls for it.

 

Or Mom pretends to fall for it, removing any belief that mom plays favorites with kid 2.  

 

26 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

If that's good politics to you...

 

Good politics?  No.  But considering we live in a world where a year ago a politician openly acknowledged something as a terrorist attack and now is blatantly insisting they never said that.  Another politician used a word some of his followers didn't like so he had to go on national television and humiliate himself.

The politics are accurate to real life, which isn't the same as good.  ?

[bryce0110]

40 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

In another age? Yes. During this age? No.

It removes the issue of the conflict with the Dragon and the WT.

It removes rhe issue of the Dragon going nuts and breaking the world.

It removes the issue of the Dragon being untrained. 

It removes a large part of the unification of ghe world (AS can just trot out their fully trained female Dragon and bring them to all the kings and queens theu spend time advising and poof, unification).

I agree that in this age any dragon besides Rand would not work. I think the idea is interesting, but definitely not what I wanted to see in the TV Show.

 

But I do not think it entirely removes the conflict. Yes, the fact that the Dragon Reborn will be a man who can channel and is destined to go insane in terrifying in the world, but a large part of where the fear of the dragon comes from is the prophecies themselves.

 

The prophecies tell of someone who will destroy the world while saving it. They are an allegory for change, and that creates fear. The fear can still remain within the common people, the prophecies do tell that they will destroy the world whether they are man or woman.

 

And unification of the world will still be an issue even if they are female, it is not that simple and the books clearly show this. There is general distrust of the Aes Sedai, and an Aes Sedai who is also the Dragon Reborn? No way that every ruler in the world is going to just trust them.

40 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

How? We literally watched them pull some child level politics.

Mom yelling at kid 1.

Kid 1: but kid 2 did this.

Mom swaps to kid 2 and actually falls for it.

 

If that's good politics to you...

I think it had a bit more depth than that, but oh well Aes Sedai politics kinda got like that in the books too. It's just a plotline brought forward and gives further insight into the white tower. The scene with Logain in the tower hall, though? I really enjoyed that.

Edited January 20, 2022 by bryce0110

[notpropaganda73]

4 hours ago, ashi said:

I see your point, and callbacks can be very nice.

 

Sadly, I felt the opposite, that it (and what Logain said that his voices had told him) might instead cheapen the upcoming Veins of Gold. Rand, instead of rising from all the trauma (both personal and that of LTT), coming, because of his character and experience, to that realization, may now instead recall something his father said. And even if he doesn't, the audience might.

 

It might, if you will, turn into a learned recollection, that Tam was right, rather than a personal realization because of his experience and character.

 

And it's hardly as significant, or momentous, when it is stated as a matter of fact by Tam, a farmer turned solider turned blademaster turned farmer (not to diminish him at all), as when it an idea searched after in crisis, by someone who has broken the world once, killing his entire family, shouldered incredible responsibility to the point of going insane, who is actually going insane, and who is at the point of despair and on the precipice of breaking the world again.

 

But we shall see.

 

Edit: again sadly, I don't feel they understand this aspect of the story - or rather they might understand it as someone watching a fish swim through an ocean might, but not as someone who has actually swum.

 

Edit again: or more to the point, as someone who has heard someone tell of a great realization - and who thinks that the words of this telling is the important thing, and not the actual realization.

 

Super interesting, thanks for the response. I can see where you're coming from on that worry, and hadn't really considered it in this way. I think what I liked about it and how I think it might (hopefully) elevate Veins of Gold, is that a realisation informed by his fathers' words feels much more personal in some way. 

 

If we can imagine a perfect production from here on out (I know, just stick with me), and we see Rand's descent and becoming iron and cold and losing his mind etc. And seeing LTTs madness and the Breaking and the prologue from the books. All of that horribleness but the moments of light as well that have you really rooting for Rand. I just think Veins of Gold would be so powerful if he leans on words his father, his true father, had said to him before the journey ever began. 

 

Full disclosure, I'm a bit of a sucker for father-son relationships on film and television. So while I totally get what you're saying and especially in terms of Rand & LTT merging, having broken the world before and on the verge again - on a personal note I think there could be something really powerful about Rand's relationship and love for his father being core to Veins of Gold, calling back to the very first episode. I think/hope that Tam's words will play a part in the realisation, an important part, but something that sort of adds to the whole mixture of things you describe, and that Tam's words add a personal touch to it that will (hopefully) resonate even more for a television audience. 

 

But it will be quite delicate I think and could easily be diminished in the way you've said, I hadn't thought of it in that way, thanks again for sharing.

[ashi]

37 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Super interesting, thanks for the response. I can see where you're coming from on that worry, and hadn't really considered it in this way. I think what I liked about it and how I think it might (hopefully) elevate Veins of Gold, is that a realisation informed by his fathers' words feels much more personal in some way. 

 

If we can imagine a perfect production from here on out (I know, just stick with me), and we see Rand's descent and becoming iron and cold and losing his mind etc. And seeing LTTs madness and the Breaking and the prologue from the books. All of that horribleness but the moments of light as well that have you really rooting for Rand. I just think Veins of Gold would be so powerful if he leans on words his father, his true father, had said to him before the journey ever began. 

 

Full disclosure, I'm a bit of a sucker for father-son relationships on film and television. So while I totally get what you're saying and especially in terms of Rand & LTT merging, having broken the world before and on the verge again - on a personal note I think there could be something really powerful about Rand's relationship and love for his father being core to Veins of Gold, calling back to the very first episode. I think/hope that Tam's words will play a part in the realisation, an important part, but something that sort of adds to the whole mixture of things you describe, and that Tam's words add a personal touch to it that will (hopefully) resonate even more for a television audience. 

 

But it will be quite delicate I think and could easily be diminished in the way you've said, I hadn't thought of it in that way, thanks again for sharing.

 

Thank you, that was a very nice explanation! Your post has made me feel somewhat more positive! :)

[Spiritweaver1]

On 1/19/2022 at 12:25 PM, KakitaOCU said:

This happens in the books with Nynaeve too.  How about when she arbitrarily self learned Balefire for no reason in Book 3?
 

 

 

I don't recall Nynaeve channeling balefire in TDR. I just read it in December ? Can you kindly provide a citation?

[KakitaOCU]

9 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

 

I don't recall Nynaeve channeling balefire in TDR. I just read it in December ? Can you kindly provide a citation?

I do not have a copy of the book in front of me.  But a bit of google.  The Dragon Reborn Chapter 39: Threads in the Pattern.

When the super girls have been captured and the Aiel break in to save them.  They burst out and while Elayne and Egwene fight in conventional ways, Nynaeve Balefires a fade.  When asked about it she doesn't know how she did it, just that she can now.

[Spiritweaver1]

11 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I do not have a copy of the book in front of me.  But a bit of google.  The Dragon Reborn Chapter 39: Threads in the Pattern.

When the super girls have been captured and the Aiel break in to save them.  They burst out and while Elayne and Egwene fight in conventional ways, Nynaeve Balefires a fade.  When asked about it she doesn't know how she did it, just that she can now.

Found it I stand corrected.   I do say that my latest reread has revealed several  places where RJ took the easy route.   Not sure why he did in this instance because the girls had already set the three fades on fire.   

[Spiritweaver1]

35 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Spiritweaver1
duplicate post sorry

[Spiritweaver1]

Now, now lets all float down the river for a few minutes.   Think happy thoughts.  In my opinion healthy participation in forum discussions is about 25% original thought, 25% logical thought, 25% reflection on other's thoughts, and 25% relationship building.  It also pays to remember that opinions are not facts and so logic and debate may not be sufficient to change somebodies opinion.  When I had an honest tech job we had the three volley rule at my work place.  Party A says something, Party B rebuts A.  Party A counters B's rebuttal and perhaps adds new info.  Party B again rebuts A.  Party A restates the thing.  That is the third volley.  Bystanders would usually call out 3 volley's.  That means time to chill and reflect before continuing to get to agreement.  It worked well,

[Skipp]

37 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I do not have a copy of the book in front of me.  But a bit of google.  The Dragon Reborn Chapter 39: Threads in the Pattern.

When the super girls have been captured and the Aiel break in to save them.  They burst out and while Elayne and Egwene fight in conventional ways, Nynaeve Balefires a fade.  When asked about it she doesn't know how she did it, just that she can now.

I had completely forgotten this.  It is very interesting that RJ included it when, it is theorized, that Moiraine found out how to Balefire when visiting the Twins in The Great hunt but didn't actually use it until The Dragon Reborn.

[Gothic Flame]

Hmm..well, I do recall saying that those that claim to like the show did seem to do a lot of work rationalizing and making leaps in logic to gain some sort of coherence.

[Skipp]

41 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I do not have a copy of the book in front of me.  But a bit of google.  The Dragon Reborn Chapter 39: Threads in the Pattern.

When the super girls have been captured and the Aiel break in to save them.  They burst out and while Elayne and Egwene fight in conventional ways, Nynaeve Balefires a fade.  When asked about it she doesn't know how she did it, just that she can now.

Another thought, does Nynaeve ever use Balefire again?

[KakitaOCU]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Another thought, does Nynaeve ever use Balefire again?

 

In her test for the shawl, it's a big deal where the sisters demand she swear never to use it again and she tells them she'll walk away from the tower.

[ilovezam]

3 hours ago, bryce0110 said:

I think it had a bit more depth than that, but oh well Aes Sedai politics kinda got like that in the books too.

I think the difference is the books presents Aes Sedai squabbling as childish and tiresome, while the show seem to give the impression that there was some political masterclass going on with Liandrin and Siuan. 

 

No major player from the Tower also ever did anything too egregiously stupid in front of the whole hall like Siuan/Moiraine. 

[Truthteller]

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

Super interesting, thanks for the response. I can see where you're coming from on that worry, and hadn't really considered it in this way. I think what I liked about it and how I think it might (hopefully) elevate Veins of Gold, is that a realisation informed by his fathers' words feels much more personal in some way. 

 

If we can imagine a perfect production from here on out (I know, just stick with me), and we see Rand's descent and becoming iron and cold and losing his mind etc. And seeing LTTs madness and the Breaking and the prologue from the books. All of that horribleness but the moments of light as well that have you really rooting for Rand. I just think Veins of Gold would be so powerful if he leans on words his father, his true father, had said to him before the journey ever began. 

 

Full disclosure, I'm a bit of a sucker for father-son relationships on film and television. So while I totally get what you're saying and especially in terms of Rand & LTT merging, having broken the world before and on the verge again - on a personal note I think there could be something really powerful about Rand's relationship and love for his father being core to Veins of Gold, calling back to the very first episode. I think/hope that Tam's words will play a part in the realisation, an important part, but something that sort of adds to the whole mixture of things you describe, and that Tam's words add a personal touch to it that will (hopefully) resonate even more for a television audience. 

 

But it will be quite delicate I think and could easily be diminished in the way you've said, I hadn't thought of it in that way, thanks again for sharing.

I too think that Rand’s relationship with Tam is the key moment in the entire series, and yet it is because they have bungled their relationship so badly, ignoring it to focus on their misguided vision of Emond’s Fields, and the development of Egwene and Nynaeve, that I am most disappointed.

 

The whole series turns on a) Rand’s mostly unseen upbringing and b) his relationship with his mentors (in BK 1 Lan and Thom), and the show ignored both.  
 

I don’t see how they backtrack from that, indeed no one who thought those two things were important would have made the choices they have made.  
 

If there were changes to be made to the series for TV, it should have leaned harder into those themes, not disparaged them.

[Skipp]

On the topic of how powerful Nynaeve is.  A member of the Lezbi Nerdy discord mentioned that they just read a passage about Nynaeve's strength in tDR. After getting Mat back to the tower for healing Egwene and Nynaeve are brought to the room to witness the process.  Nynaeve feels she could only wield half of the amount of power that a circle of 10 Aes Sedai with 1 Sa'angreal could wield.

 

That is our new measurement   (10 Aes Sedai Circle + 1 Sa'angreal) = .5Nynaeves

 

Of course a circle of 10 Aes Sedai isn't as strong as 10 individual Aes Sedai.  Does anyone remember the conversion tables for circles lol?