Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Raal Gurniss]

2 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Or, you're rationalizing bad writing. You should consider that possibility. 

 

2 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

So he doesn't have an arc in the story we get to experience. Which is the point, and it makes him less interesting. That's just how it works, I'm afraid. He can still be fun - superman-style characters have their appeal as well - but a character who grows a lot, overcomes flaws or limitations and generally has motion is just more interesting to follow. And Jordan knew this better than anyone, as he proved with Rand, the character that goes through the most growth I have ever seen in fiction or real life.

But Rand was a focus point for development, Lan was not…Lan was a mature established character that developed by releasing previous information that already happened decades previously with a very minor ongoing sub-story.…Flashbacks or storytelling should be 80% of Lans part…Showrunners have basically defenestrated that 80% which is why the character is lacklustre, it’s just spread too thin.

[Deviations]

58 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

Instead they want to be plot-heavy. Which is a mistake, I think. If we don't care about the characters, we won't care about the plot either.

Agreed.  Why are we even worried about the dark one at this point?  They didn't even show the results of the hard winter in EF.  I know there was a conversation about it between Moraine and Suian but not enough to carry the show.

[Raal Gurniss]

3 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

If the explanation comes me in the course of five seconds it's not me rationalizing.  I was already fine without having to work through logic loops that Nynaeve a massively powerful individual with a talent for healing could handle the act.  Raal pointing out that the weave is much less sophisticated than I was thinking makes it even easier to understand.
 

In WoT it's very deadly.  It's a change much like Peaches being poisonous.  The real life parralel has two strains, one very deadly and the other much less so.

 

  

"exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."?  No, I literally mean that while what Nynaeve did is flashy it does not come off as harder or more difficult than handling a systemic wide infection.

Maybe it's a result of reading Modesitt but his healing magic tends to go into description of exactly what is being dealt with and it lines up with the real life medicine I know (Limited though it is).

The fact you believe I pointed out how “simple” the weave is just shows how you are being disingenuous! I said healing is one of the more complex weaves, let alone healing multiple people of multiple wounds without even being aware of what, who, where, how or even when! Not to mention her  rage not even being focussed on healing….It is just terrible lazy writing! 

[Raal Gurniss]

8 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Nynaeve couldn't even heal Tam.

Apparently she was too “scared” rather than angry…..

[EmreY]

25 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

….How does she even know what injuries they have without even looking? Again, this is just another example of poor writing.

 

Just out of interest, how might you have approached it?

[MasterAblar]

16 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

And without even looking or being even aware of dozens of people being injured(let alone what injuries) with her main focus of rage being elsewhere?

 

Seems unlikely don’t you think?

 

Yes that's why I said it's over the top. Should Nyneave probably have been able to do that there? No not really. But it doesn't bother me too much because it fits with her strength (healing), and her character (repressed emotions that come to the fore in powerful moments). So I can accept it based on that and a little rule of cool, even though yes its not quite right and by the books.

 

Later on though when she shows more control in the ways I think that's not so great. She shouldn't have the control necessary for it, and it would have been a nice moment to let Moiraine shine. I think part of the reason it's there is to remind people that hey she could be the dragon. Still lame though in my opinion.

[EmreY]

15 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Showrunners have basically defenestrated that 80% which is why the character is lacklustre, it’s just spread too thin.

 

Summary of BookLan, first book and a bit: 

 

Quote

Don't even know how to fight Shadowspawn. Dumb sheepherders.

 

I am not emotional. My emotions are cold like a winter blizzard. Loving me is like loving a frozen ice sculpture. That is why I have fallen head over heels in love with you, and you with me. Now excuse me while I martyr myself.

 

This move is called "Ending the Book." Use it in a climactic battle at the end of the book against a bad guy.

Edited January 20, 2022 by EmreY

[Raal Gurniss]

2 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

Just out of interest, how might you have approached it?

Stopping the fight at scene and then healing people individually post battle?

You really think the route they took was remotely the best option? Its like an old Wonder Woman episode where she spins and changes costume whilst at the same time defeating everyone within a 50 mile radius at the exact same time before she even knows who she is supposed to be fighting and all with zero explanation of how.

 

It’s poorly written.

[KakitaOCU]

15 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Nynaeve couldn't even heal Tam.

She had been kidnapped and was missing at the time of the show.  Thanks.  
 

8 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

The fact you believe I pointed out how “simple” the weave is just shows how you are being disingenuous!

 

No, disingenuous would be if you are deliberately confusing my statements about how the Combat Healing weave works with how complex a weave it is or isn't.  But I'm certain that's an accidental slip on your part, right?  Also, the Combat Weave, while complex, is not as complex as the detailed individual wound healing that Nynaeve uses in later books that weave all 5 powers in ways that people have trouble following.  But my main point is the fact that Combat Healing washes away all damage or doesn't versus targeting specific wounds is what I was talking about here.

 

10 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Later on though when she shows more control in the ways I think that's not so great. She shouldn't have the control necessary for it, and it would have been a nice moment to let Moiraine shine. I think part of the reason it's there is to remind people that hey she could be the dragon. Still lame though in my opinion.

 

100% agree.  As an aside, I find it funny the idea that anyone who liked the show defends everything when in reality it's just that the points being debated are weak.  We want to rip apart Abell's change?  Absolutely.  Should Nynaeve nova in the ways?  Nope.  Should they have changed the ways circles work?  Nope.  Even if I understand the narrative reason there these are things I didn't care for.
 

[Gothic Flame]

21 minutes ago, Deviations said:

I thought breakbone fever wasn't fatal?  There was a line about 'i didn't know it wasn't serious, or I didn't know they weren't going to die'?

Dengue fever. That's what that is.

As for slashed throats...if either the carotid artery, or jugular vein gets nicked...or the windpipe...the first two you have seconds, the windpipe, you have a couple of minutes. 

[EmreY]

3 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

You really think the route they took was remotely the best option? Its like an old Wonder Woman episode where she spins and changes costume whilst at the same time defeating everyone within a 50 mile radius at the exact same time before she even knows who she is supposed to be fighting and all with zero explanation of how.

 

No, I do not like that particular scene.

[Deviations]

21 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

24 minutes ago, Deviations said:

I thought breakbone fever wasn't fatal?  There was a line about 'i didn't know it wasn't serious, or I didn't know they weren't going to die'?

In WoT it's very deadly.  It's a change much like Peaches being poisonous.  The real life parralel has two strains, one very deadly and the other much less so.

"I was young and didn't know the Wisdom had everything well in hand.  .........Mistress Barran had told me the fever would break in another day or two at the most."

[Raal Gurniss]

Just now, KakitaOCU said:

She had been kidnapped and was missing at the time of the show.  Thanks.  
 

 

No, disingenuous would be if you are deliberately confusing my statements about how the Combat Healing weave works with how complex a weave it is or isn't.  But I'm certain that's an accidental slip on your part, right?  Also, the Combat Weave, while complex, is not as complex as the detailed individual wound healing that Nynaeve uses in later books that weave all 5 powers in ways that people have trouble following.  But my main point is the fact that Combat Healing washes away all damage or doesn't versus targeting specific wounds is what I was talking about here.

 

 

100% agree.  As an aside, I find it funny the idea that anyone who liked the show defends everything when in reality it's just that the points being debated are weak.  We want to rip apart Abell's change?  Absolutely.  Should Nynaeve nova in the ways?  Nope.  Should they have changed the ways circles work?  Nope.  Even if I understand the narrative reason there these are things I didn't care for.
 

Nah, done with it, this is utterly pointless..By all means have the final say its the last I waste time communicating with you.

[Gothic Flame]

5 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Summary of BookLan, first book and a bit: 

Maybe you should try that again. Or did you hate the character that much?

[EmreY]

2 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

100% agree.  As an aside, I find it funny the idea that anyone who liked the show defends everything when in reality it's just that the points being debated are weak.

 

 

Amen.

[EmreY]

36 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Maybe you should try that again. Or did you hate the character that much?

 

Not mine.  It's from Isam's abridged version of the books.

 

And, no, I didn't like or dislike Lan.  He just wasn't terribly interesting to me.  My early-books favs were, in order, Rand, Mat, Moiraine.

 

I'm also really tired of the king-without-a-kingdom trope.  At least Rand was reincarnated, Mat was vaguely funny, and Moiraine absolutely out of her depth.  Rand was most important, obviously, and Perrin and Mat, so my overstretched brain concentrated on them.

 

Edited some more: Most of the rest of the main-ish characters were incompetent, mulishly stupid (eg 2,000+ years to figure out the Oath Rod can be circumvented?   Did the Breaking reduce intelligence too?  And the Dark One's too?  "to the hour of my death" indeed), far too opinionated, obnoxiously misandrist or mysogynist, laughably silly, etc, much much more than I've encountered IRL, or there just to advance the plot or provide a foil.  I thought that was interesting at first, then spent about six books trying to see where it was all going.  In some cases, these eventually came to a sensible-ish conclusion (from my point of view), in others it didn't.  For my part, I see WoT as a flawed gem, one that could have become truly great, and I do mean truly great, if time had permitted the author to revise the books.  (As an aside, I think today's fantasy does suffer from authors' belief that they can churn out books like Dickens did.)  

 

Just so that everyone realises, in case it isn't obvious: I'm not one of those who idolise these books.  I think there are good parts, I think there are brilliant parts (and the interlocking strcuture after the first two or so books is also remarkable) and I also think there are parts that could do with a serious re-write.  This opinion is not that unusual; just go back 10+ years on this forum and you'll see these sentiments are often predominant.  But what has happened, I think, in the intervening period, is that the people who really love the books have persevered, have accepted and assimilated the books, and have come to the conclusion that they represent the sole true opinion.

 

Which is why I am surprised at all the uproar.  While I will not say that the TV series is better than the books, I do not understand what is so brilliant about every character that deviations cause problems.  Is Lan diminished?  I think not.  But then, I don't think Rand is diminished either, so I'm probably in a very small minority in this forum.

 

Does the TV series have problems?  Yes, it's very uneven.  Yes, I wouldn't necessarily have done the same things (though, really, I'd be a hopeless screenwriter).  But no, the books are not perfect, and deviating from them is not showing bibliocidal tendencies.

 

Edited even some more: And so, when commenting here that something in the TV series is acceptable, I'm not necessarily approaching it from anyone else's point of view regarding the books.

Edited January 20, 2022 by EmreY

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, Deviations said:

"I was young and didn't know the Wisdom had everything well in hand.  .........Mistress Barran had told me the fever would break in another day or two at the most."

I stand corrected, thank you.  Honestly, I should have acknowledged my error back when I had the epiphany about how Combat Healing works.  Cause the same weave would heal both issues equally.

So, will stand that there is no longer evidence of Nynaeve already healing something harder.  The scene still doesn't bother me or seem unrealistic for Nynaeve to me, based on how the Combat Healing weave works in general, but the argument I was making is flawed.

[Juan Farstrider]

49 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

  

If the explanation comes me in the course of five seconds it's not me rationalizing.  I was already fine without having to work through logic loops that Nynaeve a massively powerful individual with a talent for healing could handle the act.  Raal pointing out that the weave is much less sophisticated than I was thinking makes it even easier to understand.
 

In WoT it's very deadly.  It's a change much like Peaches being poisonous.  The real life parralel has two strains, one very deadly and the other much less so.

 

  

"exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally."?  No, I literally mean that while what Nynaeve did is flashy it does not come off as harder or more difficult than handling a systemic wide infection.

Maybe it's a result of reading Modesitt but his healing magic tends to go into description of exactly what is being dealt with and it lines up with the real life medicine I know (Limited though it is).

Rationalizing is not no something that requires a lot of time, and if you had spent more time on it maybe people would not be nit-picking it apart sending you back to do more insta-rationalizing. 

Power does not mean anything other than power. Power lifters do not make great boxers. They might lift injured people easily, but they can do even more damage because of it. Some how she can heal all sorts of things without out a glance in an instant because of power? You can say "she's a wisdom and she heals", yeah not from a distance, not en mass. That skill can not come from power. You are rationalizing it all and you are not doing a good job of it. Bad writing seems much more plausible. 

And she healed them like a faith healer heals someone who was healthy and only acting for the camera. Did Lan need to rest? No, everyone got up more like it was resurrection than healing. All other healing is bogus compared to this. Do you attribute this to power, not skill in specific techniques and training and practice? It's like an instant and perfected inoculation for everyone, not a healing of each individual measles case. No, it's bad writing meant to get on to the next scene. 

The writers needed to establish her power and the wanted to give Logain a reason to change before he was cut off from the power. The found an easy way to do it, badly, rushed, but they got to move on to the next plot point. 

[KakitaOCU]

4 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Rationalizing is not no something that requires a lot of time, and if you had spent more time on it maybe people would not be nit-picking it apart sending you back to do more insta-rationalizing. 

The point is it isn't me having to find a reason, it's obvious from the get go.  And so far no one other than you has made an effort to actually address anything, they just dimiss me as a show defender, change the goalposts and move on.
 

5 minutes ago, Juan Farstrider said:

Power does not mean anything other than power. Power lifters do not make great boxers. They might lift injured people easily, but they can do even more damage because of it. Some how she can heal all sorts of things without out a glance in an instant because of power? You can say "she's a wisdom and she heals", yeah not from a distance, not en mass. That skill can not come from power. You are rationalizing it all and you are not doing a good job of it. Bad writing seems much more plausible. 

 

This is a fun case where my initial thoughts were flawed, unfortunately and fortunately the reason they were flawed actually further supports better than what I said.  I had mis-remembered Breakbone fever as being deadly when it wasn't (Thank you, Deviations).  I also had not taken into account that the basic healing weave heals EVERYTHING, it doesn't focus on specific wounds or issues, it just blanket resets the body to whole.  

 

So the argument that Nynaeve's first healing was more complex than what she did is false and I admit it.  However, the way Combat Healing works in WoT means that it's just a matter of applying the weave to targets with sufficient power.  Which makes it even easier for Nynaeve.  She doesn't need to glance, that type of healing doesn't care what the injury is.  She doesn't need to be touching because that has already been removed as a requirement in the show.  

 

[Deviations]

22 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I stand corrected, thank you.  Honestly, I should have acknowledged my error back when I had the epiphany about how Combat Healing works.  Cause the same weave would heal both issues equally.

So, will stand that there is no longer evidence of Nynaeve already healing something harder.  The scene still doesn't bother me or seem unrealistic for Nynaeve to me, based on how the Combat Healing weave works in general, but the argument I was making is flawed.

I'm not trying to be petty here.  My memory certainly isn't what it was when I was younger.  My base problem is that Nynaeve and Mat had the most enjoyable arcs for me to read outside of Rand Al Thor - (who has much honor).  When Mat and Nynaeve were at each other's throats, it was magic!  There is none of what made them enjoyable to me left in the TV Mat and Nynaeve.  There are still traits that are similar (Nynaeve is protective of the other 4, Mat is being set up to be a reluctant hero) but they are like the people in the original Body Snatchers movie.  They look the same but they really are not the same. 

 

Having Nynaeve mass-heal is insult to the injury.  The yellow healers are very specific about how healing should be done.  Which weaves to use and how to use them.  Care so that the shock from healing doesn't kill the patient, etc.  Nynaeve and Flinn upset the apple cart with their new weaves.  That's redemption for the black tower.  Redemption for an errant accepted.  How does that happen when Nynaeve power heals a battlefield before she ever goes to the white tower for any training at all?

 

Story telling is about generating feelings.  These books generated feelings for all of us or we wouldn't be here.  The poor writing and poor storytelling choices have created feelings of disappointment and anger for many including me.

 

I know many people are enjoying the series.  I enjoyed tLotR.  I enjoyed GoT.  Heck, I even enjoyed Shanahara (which was very different than the books).  

 

 

[KakitaOCU]

Just now, Deviations said:

I'm not trying to be petty here.  My memory certainly isn't what it was when I was younger.  My base problem is that Nynaeve and Mat had the most enjoyable arcs for me to read outside of Rand Al Thor - (who has much honor).  When Mat and Nynaeve were at each other's throats, it was magic!  There is none of what made them enjoyable to me left in the TV Mat and Nynaeve.  There are still traits that are similar (Nynaeve is protective of the other 4, Mat is being set up to be a reluctant hero) but they are like the people in the original Body Snatchers movie.  They look the same but they really are not the same. 

 

No worries, I didn't take it as petty, I had a fault base for my stance and you providing the correct info is a good thing, not bad.  No one likes to be wrong, but if I am I like to think I'm happy to know and correct.  ?

Out of curiosity, did Mat and Nynaeve go at it a lot in EotW?  I don't recall it, I recall their fights happening largely in book 3 and then in book... was it 7 when they met and headed to Ebou Dar?
 

2 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Having Nynaeve mass-heal is insult to the injury.  The yellow healers are very specific about how healing should be done.  Which weaves to use and how to use them.  Care so that the shock from healing doesn't kill the patient, etc.  Nynaeve and Flinn upset the apple cart with their new weaves.  That's redemption for the black tower.  Redemption for an errant accepted.  How does that happen when Nynaeve power heals a battlefield before she ever goes to the white tower for any training at all?

 

This could be a gap in my memory, but I don't really remember any focus on Nynaeve learning from the yellows.  In fact, I remember book 6 her saying how she was begging to learn but is realizing she knows more than them.  

(rest of your post is opinion, I don't agree but don't have any valid argument for how someone feels, that's on each of us.  ?  )

[Deviations]

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Out of curiosity, did Mat and Nynaeve go at it a lot in EotW?  I don't recall it, I recall their fights happening largely in book 3 and then in book... was it 7 when they met and headed to Ebou Dar?
 

You are correct here but it was set up in book one.  'Mat's a scamp and any trouble can be laid at his feet.  Rand and Perrin should have known better than to go along with it' - talking about the dark one and a dragon reborn in ef and the wandering around in Shadar Logoth.

[Deviations]

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

This could be a gap in my memory, but I don't really remember any focus on Nynaeve learning from the yellows.  In fact, I remember book 6 her saying how she was begging to learn but is realizing she knows more than them.  

Agreed.  They hadn't taught her but she was aware I think.  She consciously used all five powers when healing.  It speaks to healing being a delicate craft rather than one with brute force.  If there was a brute force healing in the books, I'm not remembering it?

[Ralph]

The mass Healing scene is way over the top, as I said at the time and I think most would agree. 

 

However, it did achieve the following things story wise (meaning it is not just for a moment of cool) :

 

1) Nynaeve demonstrated to all as a channeller the most powerful in a thousand years. (as in the books).

Remember they removed the ability to sense a fellow channeller so until this point Moiraine only knew (suspected) N could channel bc she listens to the wind. Sarah has promised us they have a very good reason for this change, and we have to wafo. I assume they will have a Forsaken hiding in the camp, and they don't want the Aran'gar sex change for obvious reasons. 

 

2) Showing how Nynaeve reacts to Lan dying, to bring out the developing romance. 

This is why he has to have a mortal wound, though that was the bit I disliked most, and it could have been done without it being his throat slit. 

BTW, did anyone else think Lan cut his own throat with his sword, rather than being hit with shrapnel. That's what it looked like to me. (Yes, yes, Lan diminished etc etc.) 

 

3) Forcing M to consider N as a Dragon candidate, despite her age.

Needed to give an excuse to take her to Fal Dara, although I think would have been better if M had wanted to leave her and the others had insisted on bringing her. 

In the books the reason for taking Eg and N to the Eye were very unconvincing. 

 

4) Allowing the gentling of Logain to be an instant decision not considered and discussed. Important for Ep6. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by Ralph

[Raal Gurniss]

5 minutes ago, Ralph said:

The mass Healing scene is way over the top, as I said at the time and I think most would agree. 

 

However, it did achieve the following things story wise (meaning it is not just for a moment of cool) :

 

1) Nynaeve demonstrated to all as a channeller the most powerful in a thousand years. (as in the books).

Remember they removed the ability to sense a flow channeller so until this point Moiraine only knew (suspected) N could channel bc she listens to the wind. Sarah has promised us they have a very good reason for this charge, and we have to wafo. I assume they will have a Forsaken hiding in the camp, and they don't want the Aran'gar sex change for obvious reasons. 

 

2) Showing how Nynaeve reacts to Lan dying, to bring out the developing romance. 

This is why he has to have a mortal wound, though that was the bit I disliked most, and it could have been done without it being his throat slit. 

BTW, did anyone else think Lan cut his own throat with his sword, rather than being hit with shrapnel. That's what it looked like to me. (Yes, yes, Lan diminished etc etc.) 

 

3) Forcing M to consider N as a Dragon candidate, despite her age.

Needed to give an excuse to take her to Fal Dara, although I think would have been better if M had wanted to leave her and the others had insisted on bringing her. 

In the books the reason for taking Eg and N to the Eye were very unconvincing. 

 

4) Allowing the gentling of Logain to be an instant decision not considered and discussed. Important for Ep6. 

 

 

True…..But it came at such a cost! Any battle from here on in is utterly meaningless, just wheel out Nyn or a circle and heal everyone enmasse instantly.

 

Its just massively poor writing.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Raal Gurniss