Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Yojimbo]

7 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I've written a lot of things over the years where my first draft doesn't look anything like the final version.  I'd go so far as to bet that everyone has.

 

I grant the evidence is in favour of your more nuanced approach, but it very circumstantial indeed. 

 

Also, how much does Judkins write for the series?

So have I. But I have also written things where I like an idea but had to rewrite it completely because it was so poorly written, but kept the general idea intact.

 

As far as I know Rafe is credited as having the main writing credits on the 1st and 8th episodes (IMO the absolute worse two episodes in he show).  I think he had secondary writing credits on a couple others.   And as show-runner he would probably have the authority to require re-writes for things he didn't like or want. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Yojimbo

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

Also, how much does Judkins write for the series

From what I recall. Episodes 1 and 8.

[Truthteller]

59 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I've written a lot of things over the years where my first draft doesn't look anything like the final version.  I'd go so far as to bet that everyone has.

 

I grant the evidence is in favour of your more nuanced approach, but it very circumstantial indeed. 

 

Also, how much does Judkins write for the series?

Your first draft won’t be as good as later drafts, but it will show what you care about, what you think is important.

 

 

[Deviations]

6 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

Your first draft won’t be as good as later drafts, but it will show what you care about, what you think is important.

 

 

This wasn't even a first draft was it?  I thought it was labeled draft 9?

[fra85uk]

35 minutes ago, Deviations said:

This wasn't even a first draft was it?  I thought it was labeled draft 9?

Probably draft 1 had orgies.

[EmreY]

44 minutes ago, Truthteller said:

Your first draft won’t be as good as later drafts, but it will show what you care about, what you think is important.

 

 

 

I would suggest that what I care about when I'm writing, or what I think is most important can vary hugely over time, and therefore respectfully disagree.

Edited January 17, 2022 by EmreY

[RhienneAgain]

11 hours ago, EmreY said:

So now we are criticising decisions that we dislike but which were anyway not taken.

I wouldn't say so. I'd say the comment with regards to sex scenes is being discussed with regards to a) whether the approach to sex scenes is good/bad/important/etc., and b) what it reveals about the showrunner's and writer's goals/beliefs/agenda with regards to gender portrayal in the show.

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, RhienneAgain said:

I wouldn't say so. I'd say the comment with regards to sex scenes is being discussed with regards to a) whether the approach to sex scenes is good/bad/important/etc., and b) what it reveals about the showrunner's and writer's goals/beliefs/agenda with regards to gender portrayal in the show.

 

If I were to generalise the argument mades here (not just yours), it goes something along the lines of:

 

J writes XYZ

J throws XYZ away

Therefore a) XYZ is something J likes, or (more generally) b) shows how far he is to willing to consider deviating from source material

 

this is much the same as

 

(Apologies to any Swedes)

RhienneAgain prepares surstömming

RhienneAgain throws surströmming away

Therefore a) surströmming is something RhienneAgain likes, or (more generally) b) shows how she's prepared to experiment

 

I would argue that (a) is unsubstantiated in both cases.  While (b) has more merit, it just shows a daring nature; just like surströmming, XYZ might be an idea never to be revisited.  ( (a) is also illogical, because it removes the distinction that should arise if J decides to keep XYZ or RhienneAgain eats plate after plate of surströmming.)

 

If all that was being said was that Judkins was willing to take risks (like RhienneAgain) then fine, I'd be OK with that - there's no point in writing that stuff otherwise.  But to say that it defines his preferences is a bit of a stretch.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by EmreY

[Mailman]

On 1/15/2022 at 2:21 PM, Humbugged2 said:

So we got that Loail talk has normal behaviour or a CGI that you would get once or twice a season

 

How was she supposed to find them ? She was injured and had gone the other direction at first to get healed  so they could have been anywhere from Saldea to Tear

 

Of course the Liandrin stuff was weird seen as who she is

 

And the Whitecloaks in the books 1 month on were pursuing Elayne and Elaida with a full guard right to the gates of TV

It is indefensible that Moiraine made no effort to find them.

they where on foot she was mounted

she could have at least checked points they where likely to travel through  

ask questions in towns they might pass through

or search for tracks from there last known location. Though I suppose they only have Lan now who is shit at tracking, maybe super tracker Nynaeve could have thought it was a good idea to locate them even.

 

They where being actively pursued by the Dark Ones forces and she left them to fend for themselves while she took a leisurely ride to Tar Valon. No excuses it is just terrible. Where is the Moiraine that would see them dead before taken by the shadow. Just NO there is no defense for that crap. 

 

Valda did not care that Egwene could have attacked him with channeling she was obviously able to cast a fire ball he was just happy to believe that she would be unable to make it strong enough to kill him. How could he know that.

 

Loial looks terrible. Someone said he looks like the Burger King and they are right.

 

[Kudzu]

2 hours ago, Mailman said:

It is indefensible that Moiraine made no effort to find them.

they where on foot she was mounted

she could have at least checked points they where likely to travel through  

ask questions in towns they might pass through

or search for tracks from there last known location. Though I suppose they only have Lan now who is shit at tracking, maybe super tracker Nynaeve could have thought it was a good idea to locate them even.

 

They where being actively pursued by the Dark Ones forces and she left them to fend for themselves while she took a leisurely ride to Tar Valon. No excuses it is just terrible. Where is the Moiraine that would see them dead before taken by the shadow. Just NO there is no defense for that crap. 

 

Valda did not care that Egwene could have attacked him with channeling she was obviously able to cast a fire ball he was just happy to believe that she would be unable to make it strong enough to kill him. How could he know that.

 

Loial looks terrible. Someone said he looks like the Burger King and they are right.

 

 

How do you know what she was doing on the months ride to Tar Valon?

[Variant]

On 1/14/2022 at 10:21 PM, Humbugged2 said:

So we got that Loail talk has normal behaviour or a CGI that you would get once or twice a season

 

The character is simply butchererd.

 

Loail is a good exposition machine in the books, giving depth of understanding of central ideas like Ta'veren and travels with the band because he wants to see them in action.  He is also there originally to help guide them along the ways (and helps them by explaining what they are and why they are dangerous, and about Machin Shin).  It was "good" because he works as a long lived creature (with a different perspective) that liked to drone on about this or that "randomly" that plot conveniently explained key facts of world. 

 

(we can have none of this because it would be actually telling the story, developing the plot or world building which TV audiences apparently don't appreciate.)

 

Instead I dare anyone to explain what he is doing in the show...  Unless you already know the story the character is nonsense.

 

You get little time spent on characterization or exposition from him to the point that he barely speaks at all and sometimes disappears or reappears in scenes like the writers just sort of remembered he was in the show.

 

 

On 1/14/2022 at 10:21 PM, Humbugged2 said:

 

How was she supposed to find them ? She was injured and had gone the other direction at first to get healed  so they could have been anywhere from Saldea to Tear

 

In the book  (planning ahead since she has access to magic and had devoted a large portion of her life to this) gives the children a coin to track them with. 

 

And, um, uses it to follow them.

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Variant

[Mailman]

1 hour ago, Kudzu said:

 

How do you know what she was doing on the months ride to Tar Valon?

Are you really suggesting that we see her at the Aes Sedai camp then see her ride into Tar Valon with the Aes Sedai and the cart carrying Logain, yet in that month she was really searching the countryside for the potential Dragons.

 

Please do not be that obtuse.

[Kudzu]

2 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Are you really suggesting that we see her at the Aes Sedai camp then see her ride into Tar Valon with the Aes Sedai and the cart carrying Logain, yet in that month she was really searching the countryside for the potential Dragons.

 

Please do not be that obtuse.

 

Well not out randomly searching the countryside, no, because that would be a waste of effort. Her most likely place to find them would be Tar Valon. Moiraine had the same basic trajectory as the others. From near Shadar Logoth to Tar Valon. Points they were likely to travel through are the same she was. Why do you think she wouldn't have asked questions in towns they went through or sent Lan on a few scouting missions to alternate routes that were logical?

 

 

[Mailman]

36 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

Well not out randomly searching the countryside, no, because that would be a waste of effort. Her most likely place to find them would be Tar Valon. Moiraine had the same basic trajectory as the others. From near Shadar Logoth to Tar Valon. Points they were likely to travel through are the same she was. Why do you think she wouldn't have asked questions in towns they went through or sent Lan on a few scouting missions to alternate routes that were logical?

 

 

Look just no what you are describing is just nonsense if she made other efforts to locate them the show would have had to show that she tried.

 

The 4 lost EFs where being actively hunted by fades and trollocs and she just made no effort to find them its terrible writing. If you cant accept that its a massive reduction in Moiraine as a character to have her let them go loose hunted by fades and trollocs with little to no understanding of the world around them I cant help you.

[Kudzu]

6 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Look just no what you are describing is just nonsense if she made other efforts to locate them the show would have had to show that she tried.

 

The 4 lost EFs where being actively hunted by fades and trollocs and she just made no effort to find them its terrible writing. If you cant accept that its a massive reduction in Moiraine as a character to have her let them go loose hunted by fades and trollocs with little to no understanding of the world around them I cant help you.

 

I've got along pretty well without your help so far. Thanks.

[Mailman]

14 minutes ago, Kudzu said:

 

I've got along pretty well without your help so far. Thanks.

Maybe?

Perhaps I was meant to help you realize something important here that would help you understand your lifes purpose.

 

But instead I just left you and went to the pub to hang out with some friends instead.

[Gothic Flame]

Hmm... Moiraine becoming the "magnificent bastard?" 

I find myself intrigued!

[KakitaOCU]

17 hours ago, Mailman said:

Look just no what you are describing is just nonsense if she made other efforts to locate them the show would have had to show that she tried.

 

Like in the book where she searched every little town on the way to Caemlyn and... Oh wait, she didn't.

You can have assumed actions without explicitly pointing them out.

[Cauthonfan4]

15 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

You can have assumed actions without explicitly pointing them out

Considering all the times the show literally contradicts itself, its hard to assume anything. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[ashi]

3 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Considering all the times the show literally contradicts itself, its hard to assume anything. 

The exact opposite! Precisely because of the contradictions, one is free to argue any otherwise unsubstantiated position to explain away a problem! ?

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Considering all the times the show literally contradicts itself, its hard to assume anything. 

 

Which contradictions would those be?

 

[expat]

Quote

 

Quote

In the book  (planning ahead since she has access to magic and had devoted a large portion of her life to this) gives the children a coin to track them with. 

So this whole rant was because they dropped the scene with the coins, which two of the three promptly lost anyway.  Even if included, two of the three have the same plot arc.

 

As to the ride to TV portion, what was she to do?  She was in a camp of mostly red Ajah sisters, they were going to TV because they were to be punished for gentling a man without trial, she had no idea where they were in a very large landscape of mostly open, lightly populated country, and she was trying to be very secretive about the EF5 (especially around the red Ajah sisters).  Her just riding out of camp to blindly hunt the kids would have been highly suspicious and rang dozens of alarm bells.  Quietly asking questions in towns they passed through and putting her eyes and ears to work looking for them was probably all she could do without alerting the reds.  Even if she knew where one of the kids were, how was she supposed to get them without having a couple of reds chasing her?

 

Finally, I've asked this a couple of time, but never got an answer.  If you are in a group and go to a large location, normally you set a meeting location in case you get lost.  When you realize you (or members of your group are lost), do you wander about endlessly looking for them or head to the meeting location?

[Guire]

17 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

Which contradictions would those be?

 

Moraine states to Nyn she was found as baby by wisdom and brought to 2 Rivers.  In scene with Lan she recites old tongue prayer that her father said as he locked her away while family fought off bandits.  There are possible explanations but they are a big stretch.

 

Also this is not writers fault, we got wide range of weather changes to fit needs of scenes that were all over the place.  

Edited January 19, 2022 by Guire

[DaddyFinn]

5 hours ago, Guire said:

Moraine states to Nyn she was found as baby by wisdom and brought to 2 Rivers.  In scene with Lan she recites old tongue prayer that her father said as he locked her away while family fought off bandits.

What is the contradiction with this? If Nynaeve's childhood village was robbed/destroyed and her parents were killed, why couldn't the old wisdom find her later and take her to safety?

 

6 hours ago, Guire said:

Also this is not writers fault, we got wide range of weather changes to fit needs of scenes that were all over the place.  

This is most likely true so I won't even try to argue. I didn't notice anything but weather is something for me that just is there as a background.

[Mailman]

10 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

Like in the book where she searched every little town on the way to Caemlyn and... Oh wait, she didn't.

You can have assumed actions without explicitly pointing them out.

No in the book she had the forethought to give each of them a token that she could use to track them.

Then when Mat and Rand lost there tokens she followed them to Whitebridge to attempt to reacquire them.

When she arrived to find them already gone she gained intel from the townsfolk and reassessed her options and decided to go after Perrin.

 

What she did not bloody do was say stuff it and hope they made it themselves while she took a ride with her friends to Camelyn.

 

You can have assumed actions but when you don't show Moiraine making any apparent effort to find the others at all except the hope they wander into Tar Valon then for anyone not blindly defending the show the assumed action is she did not look. In the book I could assume she was searching towns along the river because she was looking for them and making plans to find them.

 

Its a indefensible position you are trying to argue and a terrible reduction of Moiraines drive in the book.