Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Raal Gurniss]

10 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

You're exaggerating a teensy bit. ?

 

It really isn’t that far off though, it really wouldn’t have taken much more to be considered a ripoff of WoT just different enough not to get sued.

[Elder_Haman]

9 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

It really isn’t that far off though, it really wouldn’t have taken much more to be considered a ripoff of WoT just different enough not to get sued.

You mean like Sword of Truth?

[ashi]

50 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

You mean like Sword of Truth?

How dare you!? Terry Goodkind is not writing about fantasy! It is so frustrating that Terry Goodkind is labelled as a "fantasy writer", when Terry Goodkind writes about important philosophical and human themes, and important human beings, like Ayn Rand! Terry Goodkind is above fantasy. If you think Sword of Truth is similar to Wheel of Time, then you probably aren't old enough to read his books.

 

(Edit: http://cgi1.usatoday.com/mchat/20030805003/tscript.htm, http://fantasybookcritic.blogspot.com/2007/12/interview-with-terry-goodkind.html)

Edited January 10, 2022 by ashi

[Mailman]

7 hours ago, expat said:

 

 

As I composed this message, I had a thought of something that I wished Jordon had put in the books.  There was no good analogy for Ishy and the other Forsaken's back story of why they turned to the dark.  It would have made them more relatable if there was an important secondary/tertiary character that through POVs turned from the light to the dark and betrayed the good guys.  All the dark friends were just defined as dark friends with no character arc.

They did explain for some of them though they did not go into a lot of depth.

 

Demandred went because of his hatred of LTT

Semirhage went because she was to be bound with the oath rod which would have reduced her life expectancy and she would not have been able to extract pain from those she healed. Her other option was stilling.

Aginor went I think for his experiments.

Lanfear went mostly for power maybe a small slice for being rejected by LTT.

Asmodean turned for the promise of immortality.

Ishmael turned because he thought the victory of the Dark One was inevitable. I would have liked this to be explored more especially when Rand and Moridin became linked after the balefire. Some more conversation in the dreams trying to sway each other especially after Rand comes into full control of LTT memories.

 

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

You mean like Sword of Truth?

I suspect there are a number out there that were “inspired” by WoT.

[Raal Gurniss]

6 minutes ago, Mailman said:

They did explain for some of them though they did not go into a lot of depth.

 

Demandred went because of his hatred of LTT

Semirhage went because she was to be bound with the oath rod which would have reduced her life expectancy and she would not have been able to extract pain from those she healed. Her other option was stilling.

Aginor went I think for his experiments.

Lanfear went mostly for power maybe a small slice for being rejected by LTT.

Asmodean turned for the promise of immortality.

Ishmael turned because he thought the victory of the Dark One was inevitable. I would have liked this to be explored more especially when Rand and Moridin became linked after the balefire. Some more conversation in the dreams trying to sway each other especially after Rand comes into full control of LTT memories.

 

I thought most of the Forsaken were highly respected and were mainly corrupted/coerced  following/during the drilling into what they thought was a brand new power source but was instead the Dark Ones prison.

 

And I thought the oath rod wasn’t widely used pre-breaking but became institutionalised after as the remaining population would have been highly suspicious of Aes Sedai so they needed something to create trust in them.

 

Been awhile since I read the books though so I could be mistaken, it’s not like there are more than a few paragraphs on each.

[Chivalry]

1 hour ago, Elder_Haman said:

You mean like Sword of Truth?

 

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but I don't think garbage in any form can be considered flattery. That was a Fantasy series that got the adaptation it deserved.

[Gothic Flame]

5 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

And I thought the oath rod wasn’t widely used pre-breaking

Oath rods were called "binders" in the Age of Legends, and only used on criminals.

The times...they have sooo changed.

[Spiritweaver1]

5 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

I thought most of the Forsaken were highly respected and were mainly corrupted/coerced  following/during the drilling into what they thought was a brand new power source but was instead the Dark Ones prison.

 

And I thought the oath rod wasn’t widely used pre-breaking but became institutionalised after as the remaining population would have been highly suspicious of Aes Sedai so they needed something to create trust in them.

 

Been awhile since I read the books though so I could be mistaken, it’s not like there are more than a few paragraphs on each.

Mailman is generally correct in the simplistic analysis  as I recall but I am only starting Crossroads of Twilight in my re-read.  So RJ used most of the  main human vices such as envy, lust (Rahvin, Graendal) and gave them a Forsaken or two to be the principal demon/representative of.  With regards to the bore that is actually a plot flaw in the book lore in my opinion.  So the whole premise is that if all the seals are broken the DO will be able to directly touch the world and remake it as he see's fit.  As the plot rolls along we have him stopping the weather pattern so it is always summer and a hot dry one at that.  This is with some of the seals still intact.  If the last seal breaks it is game over.   However in the War of the Power the bore was open and none of that kind of effect was recorded in reported history.  The war was fought by the DO's proxies the Forsaken, their minions and Anginor's shadow spawn troops.  

 

Anyway that being said, when the bore was opened the DO's influence was clearly more pronounced so he would have been able to work on human weakness just like evil is known to do in a number of IRL belief systems.  Folk get tempted, cross a line and there is mostly no going back.   However no one can walk so long in the Shadow, that they cannot come to the Light.  

 

 

[Mailman]

16 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Oath rods were called "binders" in the Age of Legends, and only used on criminals.

The times...they have sooo changed.

Yep they where also aware that it shortened your life span

[Raal Gurniss]

18 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Oath rods were called "binders" in the Age of Legends, and only used on criminals.

The times...they have sooo changed.

Exactly, the oath rods were a type of penance/trust inducing aspect  that would have costs such as a much reduced life expectancy for an Aes Sedai.

[Gothic Flame]

7 minutes ago, Mailman said:

Yep they where also aware that it shortened your life span

That's a salient point I never connected...huh. Good going!

[expat]

Quote

They did explain for some of them though they did not go into a lot of depth.

I wasn't clear in my original entry.  Yes, many of the forsaken had an elevator speech description of why they went bad. Facile and pretty unconvincing.  I wish Jordon had done an in-depth Randland character arc to parallel the forsaken's backstories.  Take a secondary character and through POVs show their descent to the dark and eventual betrayal of the light.  I think this would have been interesting because of the clear parallel to the forsaken story and furthering the possibility that Rand might eventually side with/accept the DO.  In the books, the dark friends were all presented as fait complete with no nuance or arc to how they got there.  They were far too easy to hate as just evil.  Watching a loved character changing would provide some emotional tension.

[Gothic Flame]

13 minutes ago, expat said:

I wasn't clear in my original entry.  Yes, many of the forsaken had an elevator speech description of why they went bad. Facile and pretty unconvincing.  I wish Jordon had done an in-depth Randland character arc to parallel the forsaken's backstories.  Take a secondary character and through POVs show their descent to the dark and eventual betrayal of the light.  I think this would have been interesting because of the clear parallel to the forsaken story and furthering the possibility that Rand might eventually side with/accept the DO.  In the books, the dark friends were all presented as fait complete with no nuance or arc to how they got there.  They were far too easy to hate as just evil.  Watching a loved character changing would provide some emotional tension.

Sounds similar to What I posted here for how I wanted a first season.

[ilovezam]

9 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Copy/paste from a mod-deleted post on r/WoT which brought up something I hadn't noticed about the AoL flashback scene. 

 

"The show calls Latra Posae the Watcher of the Flame. This throwaway point really bugged me. It once more suggests the writers either don’t care, or don’t know about the lore. I’m not sure what would be worse. The Watcher of the Flame seems to be a mixture of the Amyrlin Seat’s titles in the Third Age (Watcher of the Seals, the Flame of Tar Valon). The Flame of Tar Valon didn’t exist in the Age of Legends as Tar Valon didn’t exist back then, and also the Flame refers to the flame shaped female half of the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai. The symbol was whole during the Age of Legends so the Flame terminology would not have been used to describe its female half, in the same way the Dragon’s Fang terminology was not used to describe the male half of the yin/yang symbol. Besides, Latra Posae already had a great title in the books. Shadar Nor, Cutter of the Shadow. Why not keep it?"

 

Why on earth would this post be removed from the subreddit?

[Raal Gurniss]

5 hours ago, ilovezam said:

 

Why on earth would this post be removed from the subreddit?

It has been known the past 10 years that people can be..Shall we say “oversensitive”? Saying “half male, half female” or things of that nature has resulted in near riots.

 

 

Posts have been deleted across the WWW that have been utterly innocent in intent because some mods have cracked down hard without looking/understanding context.

 

 

[sidcarton2]

12 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

Mailman is generally correct in the simplistic analysis  as I recall but I am only starting Crossroads of Twilight in my re-read.  So RJ used most of the  main human vices such as envy, lust (Rahvin, Graendal) and gave them a Forsaken or two to be the principal demon/representative of.  With regards to the bore that is actually a plot flaw in the book lore in my opinion.  So the whole premise is that if all the seals are broken the DO will be able to directly touch the world and remake it as he see's fit.  As the plot rolls along we have him stopping the weather pattern so it is always summer and a hot dry one at that.  This is with some of the seals still intact.  If the last seal breaks it is game over.   However in the War of the Power the bore was open and none of that kind of effect was recorded in reported history.  The war was fought by the DO's proxies the Forsaken, their minions and Anginor's shadow spawn troops.  

 

Anyway that being said, when the bore was opened the DO's influence was clearly more pronounced so he would have been able to work on human weakness just like evil is known to do in a number of IRL belief systems.  Folk get tempted, cross a line and there is mostly no going back.   However no one can walk so long in the Shadow, that they cannot come to the Light.  

 

 

 

I don't think it was said that in the AoL the bore was fully open. Remember that for a while after the Bore was created in the first place, the AoL people had no idea what had really happened. The influence of the Dark One, through the opening that was there at the time, was enough to start corroding and corrupting global civilization. In fact the Forsaken are representatives of that corruption. Their character and mental flaws were magnified and corrupted by the Dark One's general corruption. Without the Dark One's influence, for example, would Semiraghe have been pushed over the edge from Healer to Healer+pain extractor? 

 

This went on for almost 100 years, because the Dark One's influence was limited due to the Bore not being fully open and allowing It to enter and reshape reality immediately. 

 

The War of Power lasted 10 years after that. If the Dark One had been truly free at any point during the 110 years between the drilling of the Bore and LTT's strike, reality would have been unmade and reshaped -- i.e. It would have won. It could bide it's time, however, because It's influence in the world was enough to corrode humanity until It eventually won. 

 

LTT's desperate plan recognized that without a decisive move to seal the Dark One now, It's influence had already been sufficient to bring humanity, and reality itself, to the cusp of destruction and there was nothing the Light could do about it. The will of humanity to resist was being drained away and was almost gone. 

 

I think Latrae Posae recognized this as well. Her main objection was the risk was too high of fully opening the Bore, and that while the will and ability to resist was almost gone there was still time to use the Choedan Kal to at least put a bubble around the Bore, block the Dark One's influence, and give humanity some breathing room to find a proper solution to sealing the Bore. With the loss of the access keys, LTT did not see a way for Latrae Posae's plan to succeed before the War was lost, and so launched his strike as a last desperate attempt to seal the Dark One. The "proper" solution, as it turned out, was to wait for the next Age to solve the problem. ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Deviations]

16 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

You mean like Sword of Truth?

Funny.  I had totally forgotten about that series until it started cropping up here again recently.  I had to look up Sword of Truth to remember that I had even read the first two or three.  I have an irrational hatred of 'captured/saved' arcs and even though I'm a professed bookcloak, there are several of these arcs in this series that I wouldn't mind being skipped over.  I really dislike Faile's arc.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

Watching His Dark Materials rn with my wife and thinking how much better it would have been if HBO had hired a Catholic Cardinal to helm the adaptation. Who better to make the necessary alterations to Philip Pullman's problematic representation of organized religion and gives us the story he should have written in the first place? 

[Truthteller]

1 hour ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Watching His Dark Materials rn with my wife and thinking how much better it would have been if HBO had hired a Catholic Cardinal to helm the adaptation. Who better to make the necessary alterations to Philip Pullman's problematic representation of organized religion and gives us the story he should have written in the first place? 

I know this is said somewhat in jest, but I don’t think it is that far off.  
 

That so many of the defenders of the series are unwilling to acknowledge that significant changes have been made at all suggests to me that the disagreement has as much to do with what the books are about as it does with the series.

[MColson]

The Amazon series called Wheel of Time seems only loosely based on Robert Jordan's book series. I understand the need to cut some characters, travels, interactions, and so on. But, by the end of season 1 the TV script doesn't care about the plot of the books at all. Example: the character of Mat was mishandled by the writers from the first. Don't know why they needed to change actors, but it was apparently decided to change the entry into the Ways, so no one could go back for Mat. In the books, the Ways were created by the male Aes Sedai for the Ogier, and they were opened by manipulating a leaf in the design on the doorway. No one needed to channel to open the Ways.

I think those who have forgotten the books will be better able to deal with the changes. My sister never read the books and is enjoying the TV series completely. I, however, am deeply disappointed, and my husband is done with it.

[KakitaOCU]

1 hour ago, Truthteller said:

That so many of the defenders of the series are unwilling to acknowledge that significant changes have been made at all suggests to me that the disagreement has as much to do with what the books are about as it does with the series.

Can you show actual examples of people unwilling to acknowledge significant changes?

Because last I checked, the issue is more that the changes are not seen a significant because they don't actually affect that narrative as a whole.  That's an entirely different argument.  I'm sure it can be twisted to the same, but it's not.

 

  

3 minutes ago, MColson said:

No one needed to channel to open the Ways.

I think those who have forgotten the books will be better able to deal with the changes.

It's not a matter of "Having forgotten the books."  I immediately noted and wondered why that was changed, wondered how it affects Perrin's return to the Two Rivers and... Realized other than that issue it has no impact what so ever on the narrative.

Edited January 11, 2022 by KakitaOCU

[expat]

Quote

That so many of the defenders of the series are unwilling to acknowledge that significant changes have been made at all suggests to me that the disagreement has as much to do with what the books are about as it does with the series.

 

 

That so many haters of the series are unwilling to acknowledge that (many of the) significant changes have been made to adapt the books to TV are required by the change of format. That suggests to me that the disagreement has as much to do with people being book purist who can't abide any changes as it does with the series.

 

My statement is just as content free as the original.  Neither is correct.

 

There are three kinds of changes:

 

1. Changes necessary because of the limits of TV time and budget.  We would all have liked it if the series was 10 or more episodes long, but that wasn't in the cards.  So changes were needed to tell the story in 8 episodes.

 

2.  Changes were needed because pure book dialogue, scenes, arcs etc often don't work in a visual media.  Adaptation changes are real and required.

 

3.  Changes just for the hell of it not caused by either 1 or 2.  

 

There is honest disagreement about what changes fit into which category and how significant they really were.  

 

Let's take for an example the often decried "who is the dragon mystery".  Was this necessary and was it a major change?  In the end it didn't affect anything and is unlikely to affect anything going forward since Rand is the dragon and the lore didn't change.  You could argue that it was necessary because TV needs a hook and there was nothing in the first book that made a good hook so they had to invent one.  Honest disagreement could equally point out that it screwed up the pacing and character development of the series.  Both points are valid opinions.

 

Questioning the motives/tastes of either the "lovers' or "haters" seems to be counterproductive.  There are ample arguments that can be used to support both side's opinions.  Your favorite color, food, drink, hobby etc are unlikely to be mine, but deserve just as much respect.

[MColson]

26 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

It's not a matter of "Having forgotten the books."  I immediately noted and wondered why that was changed,

I do not think you have forgotten the books at all. I also immediately noticed the change in how the Waygate was opened. The change may not impact the overall plot, but I wonder if this change was used to allow more viewers to forget what the original Mat looked like. I obviously won't know until the next season rolls around.

I often re-read favorite books. The first time I read a book I find myself getting swept up in the more exciting parts of the narrative. The second time I may find some nuance missed during the initial read. Therefore, I don't believe everyone takes exactly the same information from the text. And, it's probably the reason so many argue over minute details.

 

[Elder_Haman]

2 hours ago, Truthteller said:

That so many of the defenders of the series are unwilling to acknowledge that significant changes have been made at all

Who are these people that are saying there have been no significant changes? As a "defender of the series" (which is really sort of silly - as if art is something that requires "defending"), I've yet to see someone who isn't willing to acknowledge that significant changes were made. It's whether those changes "RUIN THE WHOLE SERIES!!!!" that seems to be the thing that is in question.