Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[futurehermit]

They didn't have to radically change Moiraine's arc by having her get shielded or stilled at the Eye to give her and Lan something to do in season 2.  Why not just give them *complementary* things to do that make sense relative to the characters' motivations and goals within the original story?  

 

In other words, what would Moiraine and Lan plausibly be doing while the hunt for the horn is occurring?  Use it as an opportunity to be creative while still exploring the actual story, characters, and world Jordan gave us.  Or, failing that, just have Moiraine and Lan join the hunt.  

 

Shielding or stilling Moiraine just "to give them something to do" is lame.

 

Making major changes that don't respect the integrity of the original plot and characters isn't required and is just hubris plain and simple.

[Gothic Flame]

53 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

There's no evidence that they're parting ways from the books, there's no changes that don't fit nicely into the existing narrative.

Moiraine being stilled isn't a change from the books? Feel free to point out in any of the 15 books this ever happened. Because it seems to me that the narrative you speak of is the one you've written in your own head to rationalize points that don't exist in the books to enjoy a show that no longer resembles the books at all.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Gothic Flame
Clarity

[Chivalry]

I'm not sure how they're gonna fix the Moraine stilling/shielding thing. I did not like that at all. And if it ends up being a simple, quick fix, it just cheapens the whole plot point.

 

Moraine is by far the most powerful Aes Sedai we see in action for the first third of the series. I always got the sense that her confidence (even arrogance) was based on her knowledge and competence. Diminishing her (and Lan) really bothered me.

[EmreY]

5 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

I still maintain that by your logic even the primary characters could be removed or replaced and it wouldn’t make a noticeable difference.

 

I mean many of the primary characters so far have done nothing or had their roles replaced by others and had it made clear that they are redundant.

 

If a book has primary characters that can be excised without hurting the main storyline, then it's self-indulgent and the characters should be removed.

[Skipp]

Between the end of book 1 and the end of the series, how important is it that Moiraine can channel?

 

Off the top of my head there are 3 big moments and a handful of smaller.  Introducing us to Balefire by killing some darkhounds in tDR, Balefiring Be'lal also in tDR, and joining the circle with Nynaeve and Rand at the climax.  Smaller moments can include healing Rand and washing him of exhaustion during tSR/FoH books.

 

During Book 2 I don't even know if we see Moiraine channel during the book, maybe during the Trolloc attack on Fal'dara but that scene is unlikely to happen in the show.

 

Whether they keep Moiraine shielded/stilled past season 2(I believe she is shielded btw) doesn't affect the plot all that much.  While introducing us to Darkhounds and balefire are semi-imporant and very important respectively it doesn't have to be Moiraine who does that.  I have said before that I think Be'lal is the most cuttable Forsaken of the bunch.  Yes, these are 2 kickass Moiraine moments but every character is going to lose moments in the show and these are not super important.

 

By the end of the show when Moiraine returns, assuming she is stilled, Nynaeve can heal her.

 

Honestly of more concern to me would be the smaller moments with Rand and Moiraine during the Aiel arc but she could provide the same role without being the one to heal Rand after every encounter.  Maybe this is why they are setting up Egwene to have some healing ability.

 

My personal theory is that season 2 for Moiraine will be similar to what she does in tGH but will involve Suian unknotting the shield on Moiraine before she is deposed. 

[EmreY]

2 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Why not get rid of Perrin entirely? He served near zero point during the entire season anyway, no need for the secondary or tertiary characters for that subsection of the story then..

 

Get rid of Mat for the same reason.

 

The only necessary leading roles are Rand's and Nynaeve's; the rest have varying degrees of importance, but if you had to bring numbers down, you could consolidate the series marvellously.

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, Skipp said:

My personal theory is that season 2 for Moiraine will be similar to what she does in tGH but will involve Suian unknotting the shield on Moiraine before she is deposed. 

That would be in line with the flashback to Siuan's childhood and her unknotting the fishing line/net ?

[EmreY]

22 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I'm not sure how they're gonna fix the Moraine stilling/shielding thing. I did not like that at all. And if it ends up being a simple, quick fix, it just cheapens the whole plot point.

 

Moraine is by far the most powerful Aes Sedai we see in action for the first third of the series. I always got the sense that her confidence (even arrogance) was based on her knowledge and competence. Diminishing her (and Lan) really bothered me.

 

It did me too.  But Moiraine is more than her channelling ability.  And I suspect it's an excuse to get the women to Tar Valon.

 

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Moiraine being stilled isn't a change from the books? Feel free to point out in any of the 15 books this ever happened. Because it seems to me that the narrative you speak of is the one you've written in your own head to rationalize points that don't exist in the books to enjoy a show that no longer resembles the books at all.

 

It didn't of course.  But she was absent for a fair chunk (and therefore no channelling).

[Gothic Flame]

15 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Between the end of book 1 and the end of the series, how important is it that Moiraine can channel?

Pretty damned important. It's the difference between having immense power at an instants notice, and all the confidence and the feeling it endows, to not having either, and feeling vulnerable at every turn.

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, Gothic Flame said:

Pretty damned important. It's the difference between having immense power at an instants notice, and all the confidence and the feeling it endows, to not having either, and feeling vulnerable at every turn.

 

Important for her, yes.  For the story?  Not so much.

[Gothic Flame]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

 

Important for her, yes.  For the story?  Not so much.

*shrugs*

I suppose when it comes to accurate portrayals...by the book, it certainly would fall in line with this first season.

[EmreY]

15 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

*shrugs*

I suppose when it comes to accurate portrayals...by the book, it certainly would fall in line with this first season.

 

What the book series does not do so well is that it takes numerous characters to do things that could profitably be done by fewer.  It gives the illusion of a richly populated world, but in reality you have a lot of throwaway characters.

 

Moiraine is not one of them, but if you had to do a 100-word precis of the series, still, would she appear at all?

Edited January 10, 2022 by EmreY

[ilovezam]

2 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

There's no evidence that they're parting ways from the books, there's no changes that don't fit nicely into the existing narrative.

 

That's a very interesting take, given that Rafe himself had stated that he expected to lose many book reader fans because of how different the show is and is going to be.

 

Sanderson, along with the readers who enjoy and defend the show, ask viewers to treat it as a "different turning of the Wheel".

 

I feel like if "treat it as a different timeline!" is the prevailing positive opinion on the show, it is difficult to reconcile that with the assertion that they are not parting ways with the books.

 

Sure, they can retcon in saidar/saidin (maybe Moiraine was just lying instead of telling Rand "any one who could teach you is 3000 years dead", and maybe Ishamael was lying and Rand did the opposite) and the true motivations of LTT, and never bring up Egwene Healing near-death again, and all that good stuff, but going forward we already know the crew have already concocted an entirely new plotline for Moiraine to ensure the big name actress continues to have a prominent role. 

 

It could still be really good, but yeah...

[RextheDog]

7 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

That's not an Ego/Budget issue (Though that can be part of it).  Let's posit what the pay/schedule would look like if, say, Mat and Agelmar were kept completely the same.

Mat: Alright, we need you to commit for 8-10 years of filming, you can't really take other jobs because you'll be so busy with this.  By the way, for the first 2-3 years we're going to barely pay you and your job as an actor is to stand around aimlessly and occasionally throw in a line or so.  But don't worry, after that you'll be a real character with depth and interesting things and we'll start paying you better.

Agelmar: Alright, so we need you to do this job for a few episodes.  Then we need you to make sure your schedule is free enough that in 8-10 years you can come back and do a few more episodes.   Also, when that time comes you have to be able to look pretty much exactly like you do now as in theory at best 3 years have past and people won't have been able to grow with you across the series so any big change will be really jarring.

 

 

 

 

agelmar i would forgive (and id guess even the harshest critics would too)  if they just used another looky likey actor. not worth mentioning.

 

Mats Story has enough bones about it through the series to be able to add stuff, and not compromise the story Jordan wrote. (if the actor palying MC was on bigger money and needed to be utilised)

 

those are hurdles, but not insurmountable. the issue i brought up is slightly different.....its season 2 and already RJ2 is suggesting he hasnt got enough L and M to work with.........

 

so even if we can bend a bit and say, yes, give us more Pike, it concerns me about whats he gonna do for ....well....basically half of Jordans complete story? its not that its not a problem, the issue is with the casting, if Pike has to be utilised, why was she cast as someone who dissappears for half the series......

 

i have some sympathy, shes a perfect Moraine, in my mind, but just because shes a great actress, why does that mean the story needs to change? is that not upside down way of doing things?

 

 

to that point, if the show followed the books in regards to M storyline,  id easily forgive the return of Moraine not being Pike, but would prefer it did.

 

seems like......acting talent first, storyline second......and thats a problem to me....

 

to clarify though, im just airing my concern based on RJ2 saying he needs to add stuff to keep Pike and Henney front and centre, i accept nothing is confirmed regarding what happens to Moraine and a certain red coloured door frame.

 

 

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

What the book series does not do so well is that it takes numerous characters to do things that could profitably be done by fewer.  It gives the illusion of a richly populated world, but in reality you have a lot of throwaway characters.

 

Moiraine is not one of them, but if you had to do a 100-word precis of the series, still, would she appear at all?

Yes; she is the stone that starts the avalanche.

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, RextheDog said:

i have some sympathy, shes a perfect Moraine, in my mind, but just because shes a great actress, why does that mean the story needs to change? is that not upside down way of doing things?

 

 

 

Look at it this way: she's ta'veren to the TV series. ? 

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Yes; she is the stone that starts the avalanche.

 

Yes, I agree with you (and would say she is important in other ways) for the books.

 

But in my 100 word precis, she doesn't exist.

Quote

 

In a universe where time is circular, souls transmigrate and there exist two types of metaphysical energy, an experiment to utilise a different source of energy backfired 3,000 years ago while unleashing an existential extra-dimensional threat to the universe.  While the threat was contained, the male energy of the universe was corrupted and now causes insanity.  Moreover, the patch containing the threat is weakening.

 

Therefore Fate causes the re-incarnation of a soul whose purpose is to remove the threat.  With great help and at great cost, the Dragon Reborn manages to cleanse the taint, and exclude the threat once again.

 

Edited January 10, 2022 by EmreY

[fra85uk]

7 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Are you that unwilling to chat in good faith, childish insults don't help anyone.  
 

I mean this honestly.  Do you really not understand the distinction between a supurfluous character and someone with actual narrative purpose?  I'll try and explain with two characters who were removed.

Elyas:  Elyas is there to ease Perrin into the Wolf Brother and explain what it is and what's going on.  By removing him Perrin is genuinely confused by what's going on and so is the audience.  We will have to find some new way to explain things to Perrin, either via added exploration or by having someone else explain it.  The narrative need of Elyas exists and has to be filled somehow.

Aginor:  Aginor is there because...  why?  He serves no purpose, he does nothing.  Rand murders him almost casually and then focuses on the real fight which is between him and Ishamael.  If you remove Aginor...  Nothing changes, Ishamael is still there, a threat still exists and Rand still has to use the eye to fight him.

Can you genuinely not understand the difference here between the two characters?

I did not mean to insult you. I think it was quite clear i was joking. Sorry not being more clear.

[Raal Gurniss]

7 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

Could, but have higher costs in terms of what has to be re-done.  Again, removing Aginor from the story changes... Absolutely nothing, he never matters.  Removing Perrin from the story means finding new solutions to deal with the Two Rivers, the Shaido and Slayer.

That's the thing, it's not "Could you take out X"  it's "What has to change if X is removed"  And the answer for characters like Aginor, Balthamael and Greenman is "Nothing changes"
 

Because they're significant parts of the story who do very large things and removing them means rewriting a bunch of stuff.
 

 

Nothing supports that though.  Every interview I saw with Rafe or Brandon that talked about changes said that a lot of changes happen early on because the early books are a little more... not WoT to be perfectly honest.  You can't build an ensemble where characters will eventually be important, so you need changes to give more to Mat, Perin, Egwene and Nynaeve from the get go.  You need something for Moraine to be doing throughout book 2.  We'll need stuff for Rand to do during book 3.

There's no evidence that they're parting ways from the books, there's no changes that don't fit nicely into the existing narrative.

The rest of your post is hyperbole based on your fears, not on anything that's actually been suggested.


 

 

…..Wow…So what you are saying is that  they are tied to a specific storyline and forced to keep all the characters you want and can get rid of all the characters you say they can?

 

And you are really sticking to that they are following the book? Despite everything they changed?

 

As for rewriting lots of things….You admit they removed people to save time and can cut out dozens of minor characters but lets face it even most of the main cast are not that involved with the storyline.

 

Perrin could be removed quite easily and save time and resources, he did next to nothing.

 

Matt was removed 1/2 way through the series and did basically nothing.

Lan had a bit part and basically did nothing, the warders as a whole could have been removed as they basically do nothing.

 

Hell, Rands part was largely unmemorable and could easily have been replaced by one of the women, which even the show hinted at.

 

This isn’t a gender thing btw, it’s just coincidental.

 

 

 

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

6 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

If a book has primary characters that can be excised without hurting the main storyline, then it's self-indulgent and the characters should be removed.

Many main characters of the book have been reduced to the point where they can be removed without hurting the storyline…So why keep them in? 

[Raal Gurniss]

6 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

The only necessary leading roles are Rand's and Nynaeve's; the rest have varying degrees of importance, but if you had to bring numbers down, you could consolidate the series marvellously.

Even Rand could easily have been replaced by Nynaeve or Egwene, they did attempt the whole gender unimportance to the story very early on, I doubt they would have solely included it as a gender identity/diversity plug, such things are usually included as a nod to things to come in seasons down the line.

 

It’s possible still even now that Rand is included only as a plot twist for later.

[Mailman]

8 hours ago, KakitaOCU said:

There's no evidence that they're parting ways from the books, there's no changes that don't fit nicely into the existing narrative.
 

 

If they where not using RJs names no one would have a clue that this was supposed to be an adaption of his work.

[EmreY]

1 hour ago, Mailman said:

If they where not using RJs names no one would have a clue that this was supposed to be an adaption of his work.

 

You're exaggerating a teensy bit. ?

 

[SingleMort]

Personally I don't think they needed to have the stilling thing to give Moiraine and Lan more screen time. You could just have Moiraine take  Verin's role in the early books or even Cadsuann if you want to give her more to do. I can't see a way this stilling storyline isn't going to undercut Nyneaves cure and healing Logain from much later books or cause it to be thrown out altogether. 

[Gothic Flame]

9 hours ago, EmreY said:

Moiraine is not one of them, but if you had to do a 100-word precis of the series, still, would she appear at all?

Hmm...I'd say there's more than 100 words here;