Season 1 Discussion (Full Book Spoilers) v2.1

[Weird_Old_Lady]

16 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Okay but at the rate they are going, when Rand is supposed to wipe out a trolloc horde on his own later in the series outside maradon, it's literally going to be small potatoes that he pulled it off instead of "hey its like he went hugely above and beyond".

 

Or Nynaeve and Egwene will he like really messed up over what happened, Nynaeve gets her block and Egwene has trauma AND 3 people are dead. Dude they were burning alive from the inside. 

 

Rand can do this on his own, without burning, frown a little and do some motions and the bad guys go down more quickly. "Hmmm...." He says in his adorable accent. "That wasn't THAT hard."

 

[Weird_Old_Lady]

2 hours ago, Guire said:

For lovers of the show I have been a good soldier.  I have a ridiculous amount of commute for my 2 full time jobs on mostly flat empty rural highway.  I have rewatched all episodes except last at least 10 times on different TVs, laptops and phones.  I am doing my  part to get series continued.  I have also rewatched Witcher season 1 and GoT season 1 in last couple months.  I intermixed rewatch of Witcher and WoT this week up to 4th episodes.

 

Not having to reorient my head to  time jumps on rewatch of Witcher  has made it  better entertainment.  It feels very much like a TV show but a really enjoyable one.   Many of the characters are unlikable but still fun to watch. 

 

WoTprime on rewatch has stayed pretty meh.  I think the choices to front female characters would have worked better if one of boys was just cut to give more character development to Nyn or Egwene in a more interesting way.  Also if we are going all in on White Tower we needed way more WT internal politics with better character development and thought about what makes WT entertaining.  Scenes in Witcher Hogwarts was fun and intriguing.  Having Liandrins posse just follow and glower without talking was creepy.  I loved Alanna, Karene, and Maigan.  Show me what the WT is about and how it relates to Mo and Lan's quest.  Dump the YA TV romance games and equal representaion Lan butt show and give me a female dominated political drama if that is the game.  I might have loved that.  Trying to stay with book beats without developing males just made season one muddled.  The mild twitter shout out misandry was just kind of the off flavor in a dish you can't quit place but makes your mouth keep puckering.  Right now Season one felt just like a TV show.  OK but not special.  I rewatched some Agents of Shield also.  Yea kind of had same feel.  Glimpses of greatness that never got past internal inconsistencies and muddled writing.

 

Also after mass rewatches the women circle trial gets silly.  Mountain river early spring cliff toss is kind of too much.  You can still see snow pack on mountains; that water would be shockingly cold.  Why would village need an initiation with that high of a death chance?  Most tribal coming of age ceremonies are reflective of community needs.  We have no modern medicine, you have to endure these cuts or bee stings because weak people will hurt our community survival chances so we shun you from gene pool.  WTH is happening in Two Rivers that requires Navy SEAL level of initiation only for women?  And why would you be always alone except for girl power circle.  Do they not have romantic partners that become the women's confidants and support system?  The whole thing on rewatch felt more NXIVM sorority than bedrock of healthy community ritual.  

 

Lots of shows have dramatically improved after 1 or 2 seasons.   Who knows where WoTprime is gonna take us? 

Do you know what it feels like to be a woman? 

[Guire]

5 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Do you know what it feels like to be a woman? 

No.  Not at all.  But I know that a soldier wrote the book series.  I first read this series in southern Iraq in 1991.  At the time my dad was dying in army hospital from cancer related to agent orange. I loved the characters and mythologizing of march to war and how the reality was more gray and ugly.  That people were good and bad and complicated.  That the world could always surprise you with it's complexity and beauty while being different than you could imagine.  All my life has been aspiring to be strong not hard in the face of heart breaking reality.  So I wanted to see my old friends be brought to life and beloved on screen.  My wife and daughter have watched series, think it is fine, and have no interest in discussing or rewatching.  Rafe made ok TV.  Glad it is special to you.

[Weird_Old_Lady]

10 minutes ago, Guire said:

No.  Not at all.  But I know that a soldier wrote the book series.  I first read this series in southern Iraq in 1991.  At the time my dad was dying in army hospital from cancer related to agent orange. I loved the characters and mythologizing of march to war and how the reality was more gray and ugly.  That people were good and bad and complicated.  That the world could always surprise you with it's complexity and beauty while being different than you could imagine.  All my life has been aspiring to be strong not hard in the face of heart breaking reality.  So I wanted to see my old friends be brought to life and beloved on screen.  My wife and daughter have watched series, think it is fine, and have no interest in discussing or rewatching.  Rafe made ok TV.  Glad it is special to you.

Well, I have no idea what it feels like to be a man or a soldier. I couldn't begin to guess. 

 

But I am a woman and have been for quite a while, and that line from their ceremony, specifically what it means to Nynaeve in her particular situation, hit me like an emotional brick and I have a few times now on my rewatches paused the show and cried about it for a while. 

 

I think it is interesting ??

[Guire]

4 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Well, I have no idea what it feels like to be a man or a soldier. I couldn't begin to guess. 

 

But I am a woman and have been for quite a while, and that line from their ceremony, specifically what it means to Nynaeve in her particular situation, hit me like an emotional brick and I have a few times now on my rewatches paused the show and cried about it for a while. 

 

I think it is interesting ??

So men or women as partners are less important than a generic sisterhood of women.  I have never thought any man in life was more important than my wife of 28 years.  I may not understand her at times but she even above my children is the center of my adult life.  I have cried many times during random moments in TV or movies.  I know that what I have experienced is touching some emotional thread in my brain that I can't fully understand or logically access.  I don't deny that power but also don't think it is indicative of some universal truth.

[expat]

Quote

And if you deviated massively from what the program was initially supposed to be? And there was lots of criticism about it? What then? Would you ignore ALL that criticism? Would you instead only listen to those that praised your work and solely promote those that applaud you? 

WTF are you talking about? As I said, the TF output satisfied management enough to start a multi-billion dollar program and wasn't criticized, yet I was unsatisfied with some aspects and tried to improve upon them later when I chaired other groups.  Why represent that I only cared about the other people's spoken criticism.

 

Outside criticism is certainly important in improving, but not the only path. I'm sorry that you can't examine your own work and have to rely on outside opinion to tell you when you aren't perfect.

 

I get it that you don't like the showrunner and take every chance to denigrate him, but to assume that he and his team (and Amazon) are unaware of what people are saying about the show and that he and his team are also incapable of self-analysis says more about you then the showrunner. 

[Guire]

43 minutes ago, Weird_Old_Lady said:

Well, I have no idea what it feels like to be a man or a soldier. I couldn't begin to guess. 

 

But I am a woman and have been for quite a while, and that line from their ceremony, specifically what it means to Nynaeve in her particular situation, hit me like an emotional brick and I have a few times now on my rewatches paused the show and cried about it for a while. 

 

I think it is interesting ??

I want to answer this in a kinder way.  I have autistic sons who may never have a life long intimate partner that is the foundational relationship in their life.  For many people a friend or sibling or relative may be the trusted person they most identify with  and hold sacred.  Having a deep fellowship with a group is profound and comforting.  I have people I haven't seen from my military unit for decades.  If I called they would drop everything and be there.  I get that fully.  But the majority of people will have some kind of partner that is the most important single person in their lives.  In Nyn's circumstance this is not the case as wisdom.  But also as wisdom she should realize she is the exception.  Part of why I have always opposed chastity for any religious clergy.  I am truly happy for your connection to show.  Watching Lezby Nerdy channel has been one of the small joys in roll out of show.  Seeing someone else connect is a joy on to itself.  Not feeling that connection personally is my sorrow.

[expat]

Quote

I know if i was a person living in this world i'd have two VASTLY DIFFERENT OUTLOOKS of the Dragon. and while in the END the shows approach changes nothing, it Changes the people of the world and how they react.

If you were a person living in the world, you wouldn't have a clue about any of this.  You would know that LTT was a man and the male half of the power is tainted.  You would have never heard of anyone spun of a different sex since the few stories of recurring heros like Brigette and Gabriel Cain are the same sex. You would never have heard the details of prophecy.  Thinking that the Dragon might be a women would be limited to the sophistry of the highly educated class like Aes Sedai.  The average person would assume that the Dragon would be a man and be scared about his rebirth.

 

Don't confuse book knowledge with what the average WOT person knows or assumes.

[Skipp]

5 minutes ago, expat said:

If you were a person living in the world, you wouldn't have a clue about any of this.  You would know that LTT was a man and the male half of the power is tainted.  You would have never heard of anyone spun of a different sex since the few stories of recurring heros like Brigette and Gabriel Cain are the same sex. You would never have heard the details of prophecy.  Thinking that the Dragon might be a women would be limited to the sophistry of the highly educated class like Aes Sedai.  The average person would assume that the Dragon would be a man and be scared about his rebirth.

 

Don't confuse book knowledge with what the average WOT person knows or assumes.

Even the well educated wouldn't be completely sure.  I agree with the show on this point that how can you trust the prophecies that have been translated who knows how many times by how many people. 

 

Do we know how the original Karaethon cycle eve came into existence? Likely from one or more people with foretellings.  Were these recording immediately and correctly.  Are the original recordings in the White tower?  How many people have translated them wrongly?  Interpreted them wrongly?

 

Unlike us the people of WoT don't get an instruction manual to how their universe works.

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, expat said:

WTF are you talking about? As I said, the TF output satisfied management enough to start a multi-billion dollar program and wasn't criticized, yet I was unsatisfied with some aspects and tried to improve upon them later when I chaired other groups.  Why represent that I only cared about the other people's spoken criticism.

 

Outside criticism is certainly important in improving, but not the only path. I'm sorry that you can't examine your own work and have to rely on outside opinion to tell you when you aren't perfect.

 

I get it that you don't like the showrunner and take every chance to denigrate him, but to assume that he and his team (and Amazon) are unaware of what people are saying about the show and that he and his team are also incapable of self-analysis says more about you then the showrunner. 

 

1 hour ago, expat said:

WTF are you talking about? As I said, the TF output satisfied management enough to start a multi-billion dollar program and wasn't criticized, yet I was unsatisfied with some aspects and tried to improve upon them later when I chaired other groups.  Why represent that I only cared about the other people's spoken criticism.

 

Outside criticism is certainly important in improving, but not the only path. I'm sorry that you can't examine your own work and have to rely on outside opinion to tell you when you aren't perfect.

 

I get it that you don't like the showrunner and take every chance to denigrate him, but to assume that he and his team (and Amazon) are unaware of what people are saying about the show and that he and his team are also incapable of self-analysis says more about you then the showrunner. 

Never said anything about the showrunner …Never said I couldn’t improve my own work without exterior output…

 

What part of “if” did you not understand?

 

I get it, you love the show and you think it to be whatever level of greatness that you perceive it to be

 

I don’t believe it’s very good indeed I think it’s awful.

 

Now I am quite content that you have your view and I have mine, why can’t you permit people to have a different view to yours? I don’t understand the need for such conflict…
 

Don’t see street fighting going on over peoples opinions of Marmite for instance.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Raal Gurniss

[orbops]

 

22 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

the show likely will see a ratings drop now that people will see that the Dragon is Bland boring Rand and not one of the superwomen.

Every show sees ratings drop as follow on seasons come out. Just look at the books' ratings: bk 1 had 14,736 ratings, bk 4 had 5,295 ratings, bk 8 had 3,645 ratings. I would consider probably at least 5-8 of the middle books to be somewhat bland and boring also - yet I stuck it out to the end.

[TheSmurf]

24 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Don’t see street fighting going on over peoples opinions of Marmite for instance.

Love it. 

 

Now, are we fighting each other or everyone else???

[Cauthonfan4]

1 minute ago, orbops said:

Every show sees ratings drop as follow on seasons come out. Just look at the books' ratings: bk 1 had 14,736 ratings, bk 4 had 5,295 ratings, bk 8 had 3,645 ratings. I would consider probably at least 5-8 of the middle books to be somewhat bland and boring also - yet I stuck it out to the end.

I'm talking overall rating. not how many ratings they had. so for example. Let's say the average score from viewers of season 1 is 7. Season 2 could easily see that drop substantially when they realize that yes, the Dragon is Rand. 

[orbops]

15 hours ago, EasingTheBadger said:

Does anyone even understand what Parrot Analytics measures?  It is not any metrics similar to viewership, say like Nielsen measures in the US. 

I used to work at DirecTV, and their streaming metric was that if a show was watched for more than a couple of minutes without interruption, it was considered the same as one who watched the entire show. Corporate wanted to claim large number of streamers for marketing purposes. I'm sure Parrot Analytics does similar metrics.

[expat]

Quote

    
Posted 6 minutes ago (edited)
  1 hour ago, expat said:
WTF are you talking about? As I said, the TF output satisfied management enough to start a multi-billion dollar program and wasn't criticized, yet I was unsatisfied with some aspects and tried to improve upon them later when I chaired other groups.  Why represent that I only cared about the other people's spoken criticism.

 

Outside criticism is certainly important in improving, but not the only path. I'm sorry that you can't examine your own work and have to rely on outside opinion to tell you when you aren't perfect.

 

I get it that you don't like the showrunner and take every chance to denigrate him, but to assume that he and his team (and Amazon) are unaware of what people are saying about the show and that he and his team are also incapable of self-analysis says more about you then the showrunner. 

Expand  
 

  1 hour ago, expat said:
WTF are you talking about? As I said, the TF output satisfied management enough to start a multi-billion dollar program and wasn't criticized, yet I was unsatisfied with some aspects and tried to improve upon them later when I chaired other groups.  Why represent that I only cared about the other people's spoken criticism.

 

Outside criticism is certainly important in improving, but not the only path. I'm sorry that you can't examine your own work and have to rely on outside opinion to tell you when you aren't perfect.

 

I get it that you don't like the showrunner and take every chance to denigrate him, but to assume that he and his team (and Amazon) are unaware of what people are saying about the show and that he and his team are also incapable of self-analysis says more about you then the showrunner. 

Expand  
Never said anything about the showrunner …Never said I couldn’t improve my own work without exterior output…

 

What part of “if” did you not understand?

 

I get it, you love the show and you think it to be whatever level of greatness that you perceive it to be

 

I don’t believe it’s very good indeed I think it’s awful.

So much rationalization in a few short paragraphs.

 

1.  I have never presented an opinion on the show, but you jump to the conclusion that rebutting bad arguments mean that I love it.  FTR, I liked most of the show, but recognize there are problems (e.g., pacing, character development etc.) with it.  I very much disliked episode 8.  I hope that season 2 is better.

 

2.  Since you responded to me directly, I assume that I quoted you originally.  If not, please take this as responding to the original idea and not personally.  There are post after posts saying that the show can't improve because the showrunner isn't responding publicly to criticism and then you argue that you aren't attacking the showrunner.  Doesn't pass the smell test.

 

3.  If you admit that you don't need outside criticism to improve your work, then why are you so insistent that the showrunning team can't improve because they don't publicly respond to criticism?

 

4.  "I hate it" is a fine opinion and there is no argument against it.  "I hate it and thus promulgate a silly attack against it" is not.  The silly attack can and should be argued. I admit that I find most of these arguments amusing and I follow this forum mostly to identify the bad arguments in a "so bad to be funny" kind of way.  Both sides are guilty, but (maybe confirmation bias again) one sides seems to be much worse.

 

5.  Can we both agree that we have no idea what, if any, lessons the showrunners will take from this year to improve next season's show? 

[orbops]

10 minutes ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

12 minutes ago, orbops said:

Every show sees ratings drop as follow on seasons come out. Just look at the books' ratings: bk 1 had 14,736 ratings, bk 4 had 5,295 ratings, bk 8 had 3,645 ratings. I would consider probably at least 5-8 of the middle books to be somewhat bland and boring also - yet I stuck it out to the end.

I'm talking overall rating. not how many ratings they had. so for example. Let's say the average score from viewers of season 1 is 7. Season 2 could easily see that drop substantially when they realize that yes, the Dragon is Rand. 

 

I think average score numbers become secondary. Look at GoT. S1 got a 96% on rotten tomatoes from viewers, while S8 got a 30% from viewers. Based on that horrible rating, why would HBO want to have a prequel series, and yet here comes House of the Dragon later this year.

[Cauthonfan4]

2 minutes ago, orbops said:

I think average score numbers become secondary. Look at GoT. S1 got a 96% on rotten tomatoes from viewers, while S8 got a 30% from viewers. Based on that horrible rating, why would HBO want to have a prequel series, and yet here comes House of the Dragon later this year.

because they want to capitalize on what actually went right, with the earlier seasons? Because its still a great IP with lots of potential? Much like say STAR WARS. you know, that little known IP that is still being used to this day?

Edited January 8, 2022 by Cauthonfan4

[Raal Gurniss]

12 minutes ago, expat said:

So much rationalization in a few short paragraphs.

 

1.  I have never presented an opinion on the show, but you jump to the conclusion that rebutting bad arguments mean that I love it.  FTR, I liked most of the show, but recognize there are problems (e.g., pacing, character development etc.) with it.  I very much disliked episode 8.  I hope that season 2 is better.

 

2.  Since you responded to me directly, I assume that I quoted you originally.  If not, please take this as responding to the original idea and not personally.  There are post after posts saying that the show can't improve because the showrunner isn't responding publicly to criticism and then you argue that you aren't attacking the showrunner.  Doesn't pass the smell test.

 

3.  If you admit that you don't need outside criticism to improve your work, then why are you so insistent that the showrunning team can't improve because they don't publicly respond to criticism?

 

4.  "I hate it" is a fine opinion and there is no argument against it.  "I hate it and thus promulgate a silly attack against it" is not.  The silly attack can and should be argued. I admit that I find most of these arguments amusing and I follow this forum mostly to identify the bad arguments in a "so bad to be funny" kind of way.  Both sides are guilty, but (maybe confirmation bias again) one sides seems to be much worse.

 

5.  Can we both agree that we have no idea what, if any, lessons the showrunners will take from this year to improve next season's show? 

“Please don’t take it personally”? Yeah right!

[WoTwasThat]

13 hours ago, ilovezam said:

 

I don't think this is a fair assessment at all. Episode 4 was well reviewed and well loved by many book-readers, myself included, even if it was completely original material, and even if Nynaeve's feat wasn't entirely lore-friendly.

 

Adaptations don't have to follow books exactly, but I do think it's important to honour its themes, characters, lore, etc. Having Moiraine give her "Can a cat teach a dog to climb trees, Rand?" line would have made even the most casual book readers go "oh yes she's talking about saidin!" without having to actually delve into the mechanics of the Power.

 

Rafe himself states that he only makes changes where necessary. I think then we can rightfully point to many of the changes and question their necessity, because I think many of them made the story worse.

• A non-binary reincarnation system reduces the consequences and fear for the Dragon Reborn.
• A vaguely non-binary One Power reduces the hard magic system of the world that is well loved.
  • Moiraine now able, but unwilling to teach Rand
  • Rand learns to channel by surrendering to the Power
• Removing male character's positive traits/feats in favour of uplifting women led to some of the worst scenes
  • Jagar having a extremely hamfisted "girl is 100% right, stupid man refuses to listen"  scene with Amalisa
  • LTT having a extremely hamfisted "girl is 100% right, stupid man refuses to listen"  scene with Latra
    • The Breaking of the World is now a preventable catastrophe caused by male arrogance
  • Tam, blademaster, bodied by one Trolloc, as we see a bunch of elderly farmswomen take one out.
  • Rand's moment taken away from him leading to the actual worst scene of the season.
    • 5 untrained channelers vs 20,000 Trollocs.
    • Egwene Healing near-death
  • "She has a tell"
  • Perrin, Mat, Lan does nothing all season
  • The Dragon Reborn is not developed. He doesn't get to experience transitioning from a good-natured farmer to a weapon of destruction that's doomed to go mad. In fact he just accepts it, and starts talking about LTT's memories in first person.
• Desire to keep Dragon Reborn a secret led to the major lack of development of the series' protagonists
  • Led to a need for filler in a short season
    • Stepin stuff, while well shot, is controversial in its necessity - also had no payoff in the season
    • Had to introduce traditional IRL funeral rites for Warders
      • Lan robe tearing scene 

 

I fail to see how any of these changes are an improvement over the original. Different does not automatically mean bad, but we sure should call out the changes that do turn out to be bad.

Very well said. 

[WoTwasThat]

13 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

What you call abominations, others can live with, that's why.

Well that’s quite the standard. But anyway, I didn’t ask why some people are ok with The Big Changes. I asked how The Big Changes are explained by #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip. And still no takers. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by WoTwasThat

[Skipp]

21 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

Well that’s quite the standard. But anyway, I didn’t ask why some people are ok with The Bug Changes. I asked how The Big Changes are explained by #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip. And still no takers. 

 

Depending on what you consider "Big Changes" we won't know exactly without seeing first/mid draft scripts.  But here are some that we can argue about.

 

#BecauseCovid

They lost the ability to shoot in certain locations, these include pickup shots for Fal'Dara and the entirety of the Blight(had to build their own sets).  They were unable to use the original stunt team of Trollocs for episode 8 and couldn't use practical Trollocs because of it.

 

#BarneyJumpedShip

We know they didn't plan for him to stay behind in episode 6 so we can only assume events of episode 7 and 8 had to be shuffled around to accommodate that.  Most widely assumed is that Mat would have confronted Fain and possibly have been the one Stabbed.  People have then assumed that Perrins part of the story would have been to help Lan track Moiraine through the blight but this is highly speculative with nothing directly supporting it.

 

#OnlyHad8Hours

There is a lot that can be included here but some big ones would be;

Moving Camelyn and the Trakands to season 2, cutting the Greenman and the 2 forsaken at the eye, Condensing all of the Road Darkfriends into 1 character etc, Having a very rushed first episode in general. 

 

There are certainly aspects to each of these arguments that are for or against them but this was all I could think of in this moment.

[Cauthonfan4]

6 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Depending on what you consider "Big Changes" we won't know exactly without seeing first/mid draft scripts.  But here are some that we can argue about.

 

but none of those explain...

why the male characters got next to no development.

why they had to take a character widely loved like mat and turn him into something that wasn't enjoyable.

why they chose to shift rand wiping out the army to the women.

 

those are all big changes and none of those would have been impacted by covid.

[EmreY]

25 minutes ago, WoTwasThat said:

Well that’s quite the standard. But anyway, I didn’t ask why some people are ok with The Bug Changes. I asked how The Big Changes are explained by #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip. And still no takers. 

Quote

Seriously, this is not a rhetorical question: please explain how #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip explains any of The Big Changes. Because without an explanation, I have no idea why I or anyone else who hated these changes should hold out any hope for future seasons.

 

Whether you approve of my standards is inconsequential.  And which questions I answer are my business. 

 

But I will, to the ending of your long-ignored post: I don't think anyone here is trying to get you to watch the show.

 

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

but none of those explain...

why the male characters got next to no development.

why they had to take a character widely loved like mat and turn him into something that wasn't enjoyable.

why they chose to shift rand wiping out the army to the women.

 

those are all big changes and none of those would have been impacted by covid.

 

This has been discussed ad nauseam.

[Cauthonfan4]

8 minutes ago, EmreY said:

This has been discussed ad nauseam.

with insufficient answers. they had time to develop the male characters. they CHOSE NOT TO.

Who was the second most developed male Character after Lan? Stepin. a side character. who died in episode 5. who wasn't even in the books. The fact that they could literally invest two episodes into him and kill him off literally shows that they had time to sink into the 3 boys. and they chose not to. Even Naeblis points out how one sided the character development is.

the fact that you can literally SIT HERE and tell us they did the male characters fair makes me laugh.

 

the women in the series had plenty of time to shine. there was no reason to do the men dirty like they did.

 

You can't sit there and say that "all the big changes are #BecauseCovid, #OnlyHad8Hours, or #BarneyJumpedShip." when we have literal proof of changes that were done that weren't done because of covid.

 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Cauthonfan4