Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[notpropaganda73]

I find this interesting because I know of one poster on this board who was not a fan of the first season that sees Perrin's main conflict to be the Way of the Leaf vs. violence. I personally never saw it that way either, I always thought it was wolf vs man but I don't think we can just discount this view seeing as it's prevalent within the fandom, outside of the show? 

 

As a sidenote, I always thought the "the axe is only good for killing" idea to be a bit weak. I know what RJ was going for, but you can use an axe as a tool as well. 

[Raal Gurniss]

15 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I find this interesting because I know of one poster on this board who was not a fan of the first season that sees Perrin's main conflict to be the Way of the Leaf vs. violence. I personally never saw it that way either, I always thought it was wolf vs man but I don't think we can just discount this view seeing as it's prevalent within the fandom, outside of the show? 

 

As a sidenote, I always thought the "the axe is only good for killing" idea to be a bit weak. I know what RJ was going for, but you can use an axe as a tool as well. 

I always thought it was more a battle between creation and destruction that resulted in a compromise end result.

[AdamA]

He has multiple conflicts. I think the biggest one, at least by book four and on, is the wolf/man conflict. Once he becomes Lord Perrin, he's terrified that he can't be a leader because he's doomed to eventually give into the wolf and leave behind any humans who ever depended on him because of what he sees with Noam. Once he realizes that was a choice and not something that happens to all wolfbrothers, he accepts the wolf and also accepts himself as a leader and a fighter and isn't afraid to go full throttle since he knows he won't lose himself.

 

There's also the killing versus creating conflict. I don't think he's ever personally attracted to the Way of the Leaf because he understands it isn't realistic in a world of evil when you have to sometimes fight. But he doesn't want other people who had a peaceful life before to have to fight, at least not all the time. That includes Aram, obviously, but even the farmers from Two Rivers. He feels guilty for bringing them into a war, at least partially against their will because they're drawn supernaturally to his ta'verenness. Even with Aram, I don't think it would have been as bad if the Tinkers weren't so scornful of any violence at all. He could have picked up the sword and just defended them when necessary, but continued to otherwise live the life they live, traveling, singing, dancing, and trading. It's made worse because, once he picks up the sword at all, he's forced to become a full-time soldier because nobody will let him be anything else. I think it's similar with his own people from the Two Rivers. He doesn't have any issue with them defending their own homes. He's the one who pushed them into doing that in the first place. His problem comes when they continue to follow him and effectively become an army. He wants common people to be able to remain common people and not have to become armies. Don't just lock arms and let yourselves be slaughtered by shadowspawn, but they shouldn't have to range out to Ghealdan to fight the Shaido so one man can get his wife back, either. Farming, but still being able to defend yourself when necessary, is like the hammer. Full-time soldiering is the axe. But neither of those things is the Way of the Leaf.

[Gothic Flame]

6 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

As a sidenote, I always thought the "the axe is only good for killing" idea to be a bit weak. I know what RJ was going for, but you can use an axe as a tool as well. 

Yea..I saw this as how the character was viewing the axe. Although as I recall from other genres a war-axe/battleaxe is very different from a woodman's axe.

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Yea..I saw this as how the character was viewing the axe. Although as I recall from other genres a war-axe/battleaxe is very different from a woodman's axe.

But it's incredibly rare that even a woodsman's axe is used in the creation process. Even basic woodworking has better tools to do what an axe could do. So even if it's only a tree, a woodsman's axe is still only really good for killing living things, and breaking once living things down into smaller pieces.

[Juan Farstrider]

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

But it's incredibly rare that even a woodsman's axe is used in the creation process. Even basic woodworking has better tools to do what an axe could do. So even if it's only a tree, a woodsman's axe is still only really good for killing living things, and breaking once living things down into smaller pieces.

I immediately thought about how a chisel is so much better for accuracy and detail. Analogous here is the kinds of art on tree stumps created with chainsaws (and ice even I think). It CAN be done, but the use of the wrong tool is part of what's impressive about it. 

[Andra]

17 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I find this interesting because I know of one poster on this board who was not a fan of the first season that sees Perrin's main conflict to be the Way of the Leaf vs. violence. I personally never saw it that way either, I always thought it was wolf vs man but I don't think we can just discount this view seeing as it's prevalent within the fandom, outside of the show? 

It's not that we're discounting it, it's that we're explaining why that view is mistaken.

 

Reading the series and coming away with the idea that Perrin's internal conflict is about the Way of the Leaf rather than losing his humanity to the Wolf inside is to insert something that isn't there, and ignore something that is.

 

This isn't speculation about putting ourselves in his shoes, it's about what we actually hear and see him say and do, throughout virtually the entire series.  He explicitly says it to Moiraine, Faile, and Hopper (among others).

 

17 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

As a sidenote, I always thought the "the axe is only good for killing" idea to be a bit weak. I know what RJ was going for, but you can use an axe as a tool as well. 

Does this sound like a "tool?"

"The shaggy-haired youth gave Mat a frown that suggested he had already had more than his fair share of joking, then sighed heavily and tossed back his cloak to uncover the axe.  It was no common woodsman's tool.  A broad half-moon blade on one side of the head and a curved spike on the other made it every bit as strange for the Two Rivers as Rand's sword.  Perrin's hand rested on it with a sense of familiarity, though.

 

It's a battle-axe, not a wood axe.  A weapon, not a tool.  It's why he had to choose between it and the hammer.

[Andra]

Also, we know how he contrasted the axe and the hammer, because we hear it in his thoughts:

"An axe and a hammer leaned against the wall opposite him, each plain and functional, with a haft as long as his forearm.  The axe was a wicked half-moon blade balanced by a thick spike, meant for violence.  With the hammer he could make things, had made things, at a forge.  The hammerhead weighed more than twice as much as the axe blade, but it was the axe that felt heavier by far every time he picked it up.  With that axe, he had ... He scowled, not wanting to think about that."

 

And then the axe tried to kill him.  And Faile.

 

Again, this isn't speculation.  We know it because we're inside his head.

[Gothic Flame]

So...

 

 

[Andra]

18 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

So...

 

 

Yep.  Saw that.

 

Oddly enough, I'm not sure that will actually qualify as a fantasy adaptation.

 

We know those events will all take place prior to the Hobbit, but I don't recognize anything specific in that from those books.  Of course, that doesn't mean the events don't just look different than I imagine they would.

 

It's almost like they purchased the rights with the intent to write their own original material in that world.  Like reeeeeeeaaaally expensive fan fiction.

 

But an expense that shows up in the effects in that trailer.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Andra

[Gothic Flame]

Some red flags but...
The overall look and production quality...well, I want to say "hopeful" but "skeptical" seems more honest for me.

[Andra]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

Some red flags but...
The overall look and production quality...well, I want to say "hopeful" but "skeptical" seems more honest for me.

It's interesting because there should be a whole lot less visible "magic effects" going on, so the money can go a lot more to things that are already well-established CGI technology - scenery, non-human characters, etc.

Maybe Amazon will get a bigger bang for their VFX buck for this than for WoT?

WAFO, I guess.

 

 

 

On a possibly unrelated note:

Other streaming services (Disney+, AMC+, Peacock et al.) showcased a broad selection of their properties in their ads.  Prime Video had two ads, each about a single property - LotR, and Thursday Night Football.

I was actually expecting to see something that included nods to WoT, Reacher, Mrs. Maisel, Hotel Transylvania, Good Omens, and a bunch of other hits, to sell their service.  Not just two shows.  That potential subscribers would have to wait until September to even see.

 

Weird.

 

---

To any of the members here from outside the U.S. who may not have understood that last bit about ads, I apologize.

The LotR trailer dropped during the Super Bowl tonight, as did Amazon's ad for Thursday Night Football.  The ads for other streaming services I referred to did as well.  But no ad for Prime Video as a general service appeared.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Andra

[DaddyFinn]

12 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

So...

 

 

Looks good visually but not very interesting. We'll see how it turns out.

[Gothic Flame]

55 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Looks good visually but not very interesting. We'll see how it turns out.

I suspect we'll find agreement here.

Curiously, Youtube comments seem to have organized into some form of protest. I initially thought they were bots but...nope. YT even disabled the dislikes...

[Cauthonfan4]

My interest just tanked after watching that.

[Gothic Flame]

The only thing that will have me buy into this is the script.

The "show and tell me nothing" just isn't encouraging.

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

My interest just tanked after watching that.

Watched someone rock climbing in full armour all gauntleted up…..Thats where I stopped watching…

 

I mean its a fantasy genre full of magic and somehow they made things look even more far fetched than the genre can bare…

 

 

[king of nowhere]

speaking of ad, am i the only one with the impression that there was virtually no advertising for wot?

actually, I'm not much qualified to tell, because i'm not exposed to much advertising. basically only the one coming on youtube videos and various popup.

but i've only seen the wot trailer as a youtube advertising once.

in the months preceeding the release of dune, i was proposed that trailer virtually every single video. and today, i watched a single 40 min video and i was shown the lotr trailer twice - it's 100% more than the wot trailer already.

If I hadn't known already that wottv was coming out, i'd have missed it entirely.

is that normal? perhaps youtube videos are not a good metric for advertising?

 

37 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Watched someone rock climbing in full armour all gauntleted up…..Thats where I stopped watching…

 

I mean its a fantasy genre full of magic and somehow they made things look even more far fetched than the genre can bare…

 

 

actually, that's not irrealistic. it's a lot easier to move in armor than some people think. armor weight less than some climber's backpack, and it's more evenly distributed. there's videos of people swimming in armor. the idea of armor as this bulky, cumbersome stuff that left people unable to move properly is a myth.

[Cauthonfan4]

17 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

speaking of ad, am i the only one with the impression that there was virtually no advertising for wot?

Did you buy anything from Amazon in the months leading up to wot? Cuz pretty much everything came in a box with wot labels everywhere 

[Raal Gurniss]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

 

 

actually, that's not irrealistic. it's a lot easier to move in armor than some people think. armor weight less than some climber's backpack, and it's more evenly distributed. there's videos of people swimming in armor. the idea of armor as this bulky, cumbersome stuff that left people unable to move properly is a myth.

Wearing 25-30kg chain and plate armour isn’t going to make climbing an icy sheer slope easy….And the gauntlets would make it next to impossible…..

 

But I will give it a quick gander online and see if I can find any video footage of it happening.

 

 

edit…Nope, seems it’s full steel armour mountain climbing is an extreme sport yet to get mainstream coverage for some reason.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Raal Gurniss

[Gothic Flame]

I frankly admit an lotr  series based upon what might have been going on with the two blue wizards would have more of my attention.

I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and "magic" traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

[VooDooNut]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

speaking of ad, am i the only one with the impression that there was virtually no advertising for wot?

actually, I'm not much qualified to tell, because i'm not exposed to much advertising.

This was my assumption as well. I also (try to) avoid most brainwashing manipulation ads, so I'm terribly misinformed.

[AdamA]

I got the impression that person was falling and trying to get back onto the trail, not that they were ice climbing with armor on. It's still not realistic, but I'm pretty sure that character was an elf, and they can canonically shield surf down castle walls and slide off of falling elephants they just killed pretty effortlessly in the LOTR visual-verse, so it seems on brand.

 

I can't say that trailer showed me anything to be either interested or disinterested in. It didn't seem like it showed us much of anything. I know two of those characters were Elrond and Galadriel, but I have no idea what the story here is or even the time scale. I guess that's the point of a "teaser" trailer, to just give a rough air date and remind you an IP exists, without hinting at what they story they're telling is. Something like this didn't help me because I already knew they were doing this, but I guess casual television viewers who aren't reading every upcoming year review on Rotten Tomatoes but watch the Super Bowl may not have known about this, and now some of them are excited to find out more.

[Andra]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

speaking of ad, am i the only one with the impression that there was virtually no advertising for wot?

Well, the first teaser trailers (and production stills) started appearing at about the same time articles did about official info on the finalized series.  Six months before release.   The first full trailer came out about two months before release.  But none of this had appeared anywhere besides the internet yet.

The first thing I ever saw on TV was less than a month before the premier.

 

So this is MUCH earlier than that.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Andra

[king of nowhere]

12 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Wearing 25-30kg chain and plate armour isn’t going to make climbing an icy sheer slope easy….And the gauntlets would make it next to impossible…..

 

But I will give it a quick gander online and see if I can find any video footage of it happening.

 

 

edit…Nope, seems it’s full steel armour mountain climbing is an extreme sport yet to get mainstream coverage for some reason.

Curious, because it took me half a minute to find it, and i didn't think it was necessary to provide a link

 

(from 2:00 to 2:20 if you want actual climbing)

though i was specifically mentioning swimming, and general mobility

 

it didn't take some special search. those are literally the first four videos that popped in my youtube when typing "swimming in armor".

 

now, if you are asking for the very exact specific conditions of the trailer, the same exact kind of armor, the same exact kind of surface, then no, of course you won't find the very exact thing. but, call me gullible, I see plenty of evidence of people doing something similar enough - or similarly taxing - that I won't question the feasibility of the act just because one is wearing gauntlets instead of being free-handed.

 

I find it weird that people watch movies with wizards, magical beasts, artifacts of power, dragons, destiny, immortal warriors living for millennia, but they choose to suspend their disbelief over some mildly hard physical feat, just because they find it a lot harder than it actually is.

Edited February 15, 2022 by king of nowhere