Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[fra85uk]

Just now, Sir_Charrid said:

I know she already healed but it does feel like they are going for all Aes Sedai can do all the things which is a big concern of mine, we will have to wait and see until season 2 if he starts explaining more about the rules for using the power. 

There will be no strict rules: they are going towards a power-of-friendship/feeling loose magic system in which training will have a very minor role.

And I do think that they are going for everybody can do everything (Egwene is a horrible healer in the books but now she can cure almost-dead people with almost-zero training) 

[Deviations]

19 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

RJ does alot of that, telling us what a character is thinking. in a TV show you can't do that

I disagree.  Watch the first three episodes of 1883.  It's a masterclass in how to do this successfully.

[Deviations]

8 minutes ago, fra85uk said:

if really really you want the wife-fridging could have been:

Instead of killing his wife, he could have gone berserk-frenzy and ignoring the wife in danger and, as a result of this, the wife ends killed because he did not help her.

This would have been a much better solution.  Much better

[ashi]

36 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

In the Books Nyn is a master healer, that is why she helps Rand both cleanse the taint and seal the bore, because she is needed to help heal the power/weave.

I would say the primary reason is not that Nynaeve is a healer, but that she cares and is trustworthy and that Rand trusts her (with his life and that of the world) - even when he is at peak madness and suspects almost everyone else.

Edited January 7, 2022 by ashi

[Deviations]

3 minutes ago, ashi said:

I would say the primary reason is not that Nynaeve is a healer, but that she cares and is trustworthy and that Rand trusts her (with his life and that of the world) - even when he is at peak madness and suspects almost everyone else.

Add her known power and I agree.  She was the only option.

[EmreY]

16 minutes ago, ashi said:

I would say the primary reason is not that Nynaeve is a healer, but that she cares and is trustworthy and that Rand trusts her (with his life and that of the world) - even when he is at peak madness and suspects almost everyone else.

 

And because she is like a big sister mother to him too. ?

Edited January 7, 2022 by EmreY

[Jaysen Gore]

1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

Not tiptoeing around a nuclear bomb is never a good idea, given the potential for disaster, but I agree that isn't the issue here.

 

What I meant to say was that Cadsuane's aim is to make him laugh and cry again (IIRC?) - and proceeds to do this to someone half-insane by what, slapping him, physically and verbally?

 

I also mean to say that the issue here is not to manage the man but his illness.  She goes about the illness in completely the wrong way, and this is where she becomes terrifying.  You cannot bully someone with mental illness into sanity, and if you can bully him into doing what you want, it's still morally objectionable.

 

So she's either a competent bully or the stupidest character in the books, and since she's played up to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, I'll go for the competent bully.

 

 

Ah. I never read Rand's situation as an illness. Based on the situation, I feel his thought processes and actions were rational for trying to cope with the level of stress he was under. None of the people around him made a good case as to why him maintaining his humanity and compassion was necessary to the role as Dragon Reborn. Min tried, but that came across as concern for him as an individual. Even Elayne, Avi, Perrin, and Lan reinforced his focus on sacrificing himself to his duty, and to be as hard and strong as necessary to carry the biggest mountain in the history of the age.

 

Cadsuane used the tools she had available - personal animus, demands for common decency and courtesy, and societal norms of respect - to try and keep Rand connected to any aspect of his humanity and other people. Because she didn't have the kind of personal trust relationship with him that would have enabled her to get through another way. And in her PoV's, you see she knows she's taking a huge calculated risk, but didn't see any other way to try and get through. I don't see her as a bully - beating up on someone weaker for their own sense of power - but as a craftsman, trying to mold a very tough resistant metal into the shape necessary to do what it needs to do. I believe if she knew (as opposed to hoped) that Rand killing her would shock him back towards remorse and humanity, she would have gladly accepted that trade.

 

When Tam showed up, it was almost through that very trade made Rand realized it was still about personal responsibility and morality that Rand realized he didn't need to be the Dragon Reborn to win, and in fact couldn't be if things were to turn out differently.  And of course, ultimately, someone else's sacrifice made him accept that it was not on him to carry the mountain alone. That others could help carry even small parts of it to lighten the load.

[Elder_Haman]

21 hours ago, ashi said:

Indeed, though many kinds of truth can be great.

 

One of the points, maybe. Personally, I find that statements like "the whole point of X" often can be a bit reductionistic. There are a lot of other points, too. (Edit: rather, any discrete set of points will be reductionistic, though some sets more than others, perhaps.)

 

 

But maybe it [the deconstruction of heroic fantasy tropes] is a starting-point. Or maybe: 

 

"The deconstruction was not the point. There are no points to the Wheel of Time. But it was a point."

That's fair. 

[EmreY]

10 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Ah. I never read Rand's situation as an illness. Based on the situation, I feel his thought processes and actions were rational for trying to cope with the level of stress he was under. None of the people around him made a good case as to why him maintaining his humanity and compassion was necessary to the role as Dragon Reborn. Min tried, but that came across as concern for him as an individual. Even Elayne, Avi, Perrin, and Lan reinforced his focus on sacrificing himself to his duty, and to be as hard and strong as necessary to carry the biggest mountain in the history of the age.

 

Cadsuane used the tools she had available - personal animus, demands for common decency and courtesy, and societal norms of respect - to try and keep Rand connected to any aspect of his humanity and other people. Because she didn't have the kind of personal trust relationship with him that would have enabled her to get through another way. And in her PoV's, you see she knows she's taking a huge calculated risk, but didn't see any other way to try and get through. I don't see her as a bully - beating up on someone weaker for their own sense of power - but as a craftsman, trying to mold a very tough resistant metal into the shape necessary to do what it needs to do. I believe if she knew (as opposed to hoped) that Rand killing her would shock him back towards remorse and humanity, she would have gladly accepted that trade.

 

When Tam showed up, it was almost through that very trade made Rand realized it was still about personal responsibility and morality that Rand realized he didn't need to be the Dragon Reborn to win, and in fact couldn't be if things were to turn out differently.  And of course, ultimately, someone else's sacrifice made him accept that it was not on him to carry the mountain alone. That others could help carry even small parts of it to lighten the load.

 

Hmmm.  I shall have to think on this elegant apology for her behaviour.

 

But I don't quite understand the part about Tam showing up and trades and stuff.

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

 

Hmmm.  I shall have to think on this elegant apology for her behaviour.

 

But I don't quite understand the part about Tam showing up and trades and stuff.

Cadsuane was willing to trade her life for Rand's humanity, but wasn't sure it would work. The trade almost happened with Tam, but wasn't necessary to accomplish the goal of restoring Rand.

[EmreY]

1 minute ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Cadsuane was willing to trade her life for Rand's humanity, but wasn't sure it would work. The trade almost happened with Tam, but wasn't necessary to accomplish the goal of restoring Rand.

 

She called Tam in so that Rand would kill him, hoping this would knock sense into him?  If so, I'm now back in the Cadsuane-is-Mordeth's-stupid-cousin camp... or perhaps I should re-read the relevant bits.  See you in a few months... ?

[Jaysen Gore]

1 minute ago, EmreY said:

 

She called Tam in so that Rand would kill him, hoping this would knock sense into him?  If so, I'm now back in the Cadsuane-is-Mordeth's-stupid-cousin camp... or perhaps I should re-read the relevant bits.  See you in a few months... ?

Of course not... she called in Tam because she thought he had would have access to a way she didn't. And it turns out, she was right. That Rand almost killed him was not her intent, but manages to get Rand to accept just how far gone he is.

 

Have you see Dawn of Justice - exact same scene and motive when Batman calls in the Big Guns to deal with the resurrected Superman.  RJ just went further by having Clark backhand Lois across the park.

[Guest Testeria]

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

You either have Perrin do something so awful that the audience understand instantly what he is about (and remember a TV audience literally have maybe mins of screen time to learn who perrin is before the town is attacked). Or you have him deliver long menadering monologues about he he feels angry and when he has an axe he is worried he will hurt someone. 

now instead the moment when he hurls the Axe away saying all he does with an axe is destroy and with a hammer he can create, that moment can be fully understood because the viewer gets that he killed someone close to him with an axe, in a moment of frenzy. 

 

No, this is not how You do it. Not at all.

 

It is like saying that if You want to show week character You have to throw him under the bus and make him a disabled person.

 

Perrin could kill an enemy, Valda for example. He could even destroyed some cherished item. He could throw an axe AFTER some bloody fight to show us that he do not like what he does. I mean - we heve like a billion westerns where a gunslinger struggle because he has an aversion to kill anymore and they do not all killed their mothers to show us that. Or just watch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergeant_York_(film)  it is the same moral dilemma basically.

 

Ashi is right - they just killed Perrin character for the whole season. He did nothing because he has powerful mental trauma, not because of some moral dilemma. Way of the leaf is just an excuse, not a way of life for him.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Testeria
grammar

[Guest Testeria]

4 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I know she already healed but it does feel like they are going for all Aes Sedai can do all the things which is a big concern of mine, we will have to wait and see until season 2 if he starts explaining more about the rules for using the power. 

 

It is typical of Holywood. They ignore restrictions on magic bacause they view magic as a prop to show emotions and not as part of the structure of the world.

[Deviations]

3 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

Cadsuane used the tools she had available - personal animus, demands for common decency and courtesy, and societal norms of respect

She took that approach without knowing anything about him.  Also, she was a bully to every other person she came in contact with except Sorilea.  It was what she was, not just a mask to wear in order to fix Rand.

[Spiritweaver1]

41 minutes ago, Testeria said:

 

It is typical of Holywood. They ignore restrictions on magic bacause they view magic as a prop to show emotions and not as part of the structure of the world.

Thanks for this statement.  This is nearly the whole problem.   Until recently Fantasy was hardly staple fair on TV.   The writing team doesn't know how to write a fantasy story.  They don't appreciate what makes good fantasy.   If this was a police procedural there would be plenty of good writers with the necessary experience.   In fantasy the world building is nearly as important as character development IMO.   If they  had focused on telling RJ's story visually they would have been miles ahead.  Instead they decided to write their own story.  Time will tell.

[Masha]

I am going to grade Wheel of Time and other fantasy/scifi adaptations. The grading is according to source faithfulness (not quality) Feel free to add more /comment.

1. The Expanse =A+ ( not surprising since both authors are executive producers, and any deviation from books is no doubt rewritten by them personally)

2. The Lord of the Rings =A-. (Jackson hit all major bits omitting/changing only most minor storylines)

3. Harry Potter =A-.

4. Game of Thrones =s1-4(A-), s5-8(B). That one on GRRM, D&D are not comparable as writers to him and its obvious.

5. Walking Dead =B+ (I've seen only first seasons and from a glance they adopted first seasons rather faithfully).

6. Wheel of Time =B (world building, characters, major plotlines are there. There are changes, plots moved around and skipped. But I can recognize this show as Wheel of Time).

7. The Foundation =C- (basic premise, character names are there but characters are totally different. Stuff added that wasn't in the books or even implied. Characters and their totally motivations changed. I slightly recognize this as Asimov's story)

8. The Watch =D- or F (Name of the world, names, species I recognize, everything else, the tone, humor, characters.. Is this even close to Discworld ?)

 

I am not familiar with the Witcher to grade it but I heard first season is faithful while 2nd season is not. I

Edited January 9, 2022 by Masha

[Jaysen Gore]

On 1/7/2022 at 3:19 PM, Deviations said:

She took that approach without knowing anything about him.  Also, she was a bully to every other person she came in contact with except Sorilea.  It was what she was, not just a mask to wear in order to fix Rand.

And you see her PoV's complaining about how weak the AS are that she can do that to.  More clay to be molded, and isn't she going to love being Amyrlin. And while people think others who think they're the smartest people in the room are arrogant, from the perspective of people who truly are the smartest in the room, the world is a great source of frustration and aggravation. 

[Jaysen Gore]

37 minutes ago, Masha said:

I am going to grade Wheel of Time and other fantasy/scifi adaptations. The grading is according to source faithfulness (not quality) Feel free to add more /comment.

1. The Expanse =A+ ( not surprising since both authors are executive producers, and any deviation from books is no doubt rewritten by them personally)

2. The Lord of the Rings =A-. (Jackson hit all major bits omitting/changing only most minor storylines)

3. Harry Potter =A-.

4. Game of Thrones =s1-4(A-), s5-8(B). That one on GRRM, D&D are not comparable as writers to him and its obvious.

5. Walking Dead =B+ (I've seen only first seasons and from a glance they adopted first seasons rather faithfully).

6. Wheel of Time =B (world building, characters, major plotlines are there. There are changes, plots moved around and skipped. But I can recognize this show as Wheel of Time).

7. The Foundation =C- (basic premise, character names are there but characters are totally different. Stuff added that wasn't in the books or even implied. Characters and their totally motivations changed. I slightly recognize this as Asimov's story)

8. The Watch =D- or F (Name of the world, names, species I recognize, everything else, the tone, humor, characters.. Is this even close to Discworld ?)

 

I am not familiar with the Witcher to grade it but I heard first season is faithful while 2nd season is not. I

I grant you the faithfulness argument on The Expanse and Harry Potter; would just point out how much flack the first 2 Potter movies get for being too faithful to the books ? 

 

- Lord of the Rings is a B-, B adaptation at best. The Scouring, Faramir, Haldir are not minor changes to the themes or emotional impacts of the story.

- Technically, I don't think seasons 5-8 of GoT are adaptations at all; they're original material.

 - Walking Dead - if you've only watched a bit, I'll avoid spoilers, but this may be the perfect example of why Amazon only wants 8 years for their series. While the first seasons are somewhat faithful - and really good - production realities have forced the character arcs to diverge to the point where they're simply keeping the later plots, and shifting the characters around to fit into them them. At this point, Negan should have pulled a Sopranos, and ended them all, and not just the ones he did. Oh, and the two big breakout stars of the show exist for like 2 issues collectively, so that's a bit much.

 - Foundation - that's now a based on series, not an adaptation. Not as bad as I, Robot, at least, but when everything but the names have been changed, it's no longer The Foundation

 

For me, Sin City is one end of the spectrum, and Starship Troopers is on the other. The one is a note perfect recreation, but not a great movie as a result. Starship Troopers keeps almost all of the details, but completely inverts the themes of the book, because the movie director didn't agree with the original author, making it a satire.

 

And here's one that I'm probably hypocritical on - Blade Runner. I like the story, love the movie (the Director's cut, anyway) but it's not a faithful adaptation either.

 

In fact, maybe that gives us a way forward - we can split faithfulness and quality.  So, IMO:

Harry Potter - A+ Adaptation, A- movies (3,7 = A)

LOTR - B- adaptation, A movies

WOT - B- adaptation, C+ season 1

GOT - A- adaptation, D series

Shannara - B- adaptation, F series

Blade Runner - B+ adaptation, A+ movie

Sin City - A+ adaptation, B movie

300 - A+ adaptation,  B+ movie

Expanse - A+ Adaptation, A series

The Boys - A adaptation, A- series

Ender's Game - A Adaptation, C movie

 

I could go on...

[fra85uk]

4 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I grant you the faithfulness argument on The Expanse and Harry Potter; would just point out how much flack the first 2 Potter movies get for being too faithful to the books ? 

 

- Lord of the Rings is a B-, B adaptation at best. The Scouring, Faramir, Haldir are not minor changes to the themes or emotional impacts of the story.

- Technically, I don't think seasons 5-8 of GoT are adaptations at all; they're original material.

 - Walking Dead - if you've only watched a bit, I'll avoid spoilers, but this may be the perfect example of why Amazon only wants 8 years for their series. While the first seasons are somewhat faithful - and really good - production realities have forced the character arcs to diverge to the point where they're simply keeping the later plots, and shifting the characters around to fit into them them. At this point, Negan should have pulled a Sopranos, and ended them all, and not just the ones he did. Oh, and the two big breakout stars of the show exist for like 2 issues collectively, so that's a bit much.

 - Foundation - that's now a based on series, not an adaptation. Not as bad as I, Robot, at least, but when everything but the names have been changed, it's no longer The Foundation

 

For me, Sin City is one end of the spectrum, and Starship Troopers is on the other. The one is a note perfect recreation, but not a great movie as a result. Starship Troopers keeps almost all of the details, but completely inverts the themes of the book, because the movie director didn't agree with the original author, making it a satire.

 

And here's one that I'm probably hypocritical on - Blade Runner. I like the story, love the movie (the Director's cut, anyway) but it's not a faithful adaptation either.

 

In fact, maybe that gives us a way forward - we can split faithfulness and quality.  So, IMO:

Harry Potter - A+ Adaptation, A- movies (3,7 = A)

LOTR - B- adaptation, A movies

WOT - B- adaptation, C+ season 1

GOT - A- adaptation, D series

Shannara - B- adaptation, F series

Blade Runner - B+ adaptation, A+ movie

Sin City - A+ adaptation, B movie

300 - A+ adaptation,  B+ movie

Expanse - A+ Adaptation, A series

The Boys - A adaptation, A- series

Ender's Game - A Adaptation, C movie

 

I could go on...

Agreeing to a degree

I would give Wot D adaptation D Season 1

And divide the GOT rating between 1-4  and 5-8 

[wotfan4472]

On 1/8/2022 at 6:15 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

Of course not... she called in Tam because she thought he had would have access to a way she didn't. And it turns out, she was right. That Rand almost killed him was not her intent, but manages to get Rand to accept just how far gone he is.

 

Have you see Dawn of Justice - exact same scene and motive when Batman calls in the Big Guns to deal with the resurrected Superman.  RJ just went further by having Clark backhand Lois across the park.

That was in Justice League.

Dawn of Justice had the same moment, but for Batman instead, with the exact same character in Lois.

I am one that loves both moments, because I knew I was seeing book Rand and book Tam play out in both situations for both characters. Something I thought I would never see in anything, where a book series influences the big screen that way, and in the first film featuring both of the biggest comic characters in history.

[Jaysen Gore]

7 hours ago, fra85uk said:

Agreeing to a degree

I would give Wot D adaptation D Season 1

And divide the GOT rating between 1-4  and 5-8 

My position on GoT, given the forum we're on: the lack of quality of season 7 and 8 was so heinous that it balefired the quality of earlier seasons, and killed it.  Because there was a complete inability to tie the beginning and end of the series together into a consistent whole.

 

Alternatively - a drop of fine wine in a bucket of piss is still piss. But 1 drop of piss in a buck of fine wine is also still piss. and there was way, way more than 1 drop of piss from seasons 7 and 8.

[AdamA]

It's interesting to see all the praise for The Expanse as an adaptation. I certainly agree it's probably the best the combined fantasy/sci-fi genre has ever done for television in terms of quality. I don't personally have an opinion on it as an adaptation because I haven't read the books yet as I've been waiting for the show to finish to be able to watch it without any expectations. I had a house guest last summer, however, that had read the books and we watched the show and he was complaining constantly. Bobby isn't tall enough. Alex is too hot. Avasarala isn't cussing enough. They combined Camina Drummer and Michio Pa into a single character. Fred Johnson wasn't supposed to die that way.

 

I also agree with the people saying Lord of the Rings the movies really did change quite a bit, but they were still very good movies. It seems like people just downplay differences when the result is still good but obsess over and amplify them when the result isn't as good.

 

Maybe they should have shot for Damon Lindelof as showrunner. I used to hate the guy, but after The Leftovers and Watchmen, he seems like the best thing going right now in terms of adaptations that go way beyond source material and make up new stuff out of nowhere but still works really well and is great television.

[EmreY]

3 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

But 1 drop of piss in a buck of fine wine is also still piss

 

Never eat in a restaurant. ?

 

11 minutes ago, AdamA said:

Avasarala isn't cussing enough.

 

True! ?

[Chivalry]

Since we're comparing adaptations...I think that ultimately what people will remember are the performances. We've only had one season of WOT, so any comparison is premature.

 

But the GOT actors were terrific. There were plenty of moments in the GOT series where I thought there may not be a finer actor in America than Peter Dinklage. He gave a performance for the ages.