Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[MasterAblar]

5 hours ago, Skipp said:

 

I just finished watching Lezbi Nerdy's tier ranking of the changes and she brought up an interesting thought on what you mentioned.  By having linking no longer having a buffer it now becomes very dangerous to those linked.  Particularly to those not in control of the link.  That certainly brings down the power of linking overall. 

 

Maybe they will introduce that adding a Man to the circle prevents burning out but I personally don't think they will make it that complicated.

Wouldn’t really fix the imbalance between saidin and saidar anyway. But like I said I’m starting to think they won’t bother with going too much into detail  anyway (which is a shame considering how important the magic system is).

[notpropaganda73]

12 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I liked all of your post but will specifically comment on this; there's an even better example of telling a self-contained story versus setting up a series to succeed - Star Wars. I'm willing to bet that if anyone were to re-tell the Skywalker Saga from episode 1 to episode 9, knowing what we know now, many things would be radically, radically altered.  But by making changes to make 1 story (ep. 4) as good as possible, Lucas did extensive damage to his grand saga, and they ultimately never recovered.

 

and those theoretical changes that would have done to SW are what HAS happened to the EOTW story - it's less focused, it's less character specific, it has a much messier ending, and it contains a whole bunch of things that won't be needed for a few years.

 

This is a really great comparison and, while I have been hesitant to say this, the reaction to season 1 of WoT really does remind me of the reaction to The Last Jedi. In that they are both intensely divisive among the fans. I think TLJ suffers in the wider Skywalker Saga because Rian Johnson was not being held to any grand narrative, and told a pretty self-contained story with the characters he had been given. I personally loved it, but I know how divisive it is and the multitude of reasons and opinions surrounding it. (Small sidenote, I really see similarities in fan criticisms of Luke in TLJ and Lan in S1 WoT). 

 

It feels as though Season 1 of WoT, while as divisive of TLJ, is doing almost the opposite in that it has a grand narrative to follow, and it's doing things in the season that we are told are in service to that. But it suffers as a standalone season as a result, without a doubt. I still think they could have made all the changes they have and just executed it much much better. But it's interesting to think about the two franchises in this way. 

[Gothic Flame]

The big mystery over who was the "Dragon Reborn" was the ongoing narrative for season 1. And answered not with a "WOW!" but with a "yeah...sure it's him."

And no reason to expect anything different for season 2.

[Scarloc99]

On 1/3/2022 at 1:32 PM, EmreY said:

 

Thanks for making me feel old.  However, LoTR was made when the internet was around. ? And these discussions here are very familiar to me.

 

 

 

Major character differences books-to-film

 

Gimli goes from being occasionally comical because he's out of his depth or place to a Disney comedy sidekick, who is funny because he gets thrown or has armour that is too big for him.

 

Legolas becomes a circus performer.

 

Aragorn goes from being "Aragorn son of Arathorn, the heir of Isildur, Elendil's son" (repeat at every intro and at various other points) to "the same weakness is in me, I am not worthy".  And where are the hands of a healer?  Half the reason Stuart Townsend was let go was because he wanted to play book Aragorn rather than the film.  Aragorn does not take a deep breath of responsibility settling on him when crowned.  In the book there are four heroes - Gandalf (the spiritual), Aragorn (the temporal) and Frodo and Sam (the practical).  In the films, the man who is supposed to lead the world in the Age of Man comes off eaxctly as Denethor describes him.

 

Denethor goes from tragic and complex figure to bad guy gorging himself while he sends his son out on a suicide mission.  Gandalf orders the beacons be lit?

 

Wormtongue goes from being poisonous to being generic Brad Dourif.

 

Faramir gets seriously rewritten/downgraded - for no real reason since he comes back to book Faramir.  And as @Jaysen Gore said, Game Over if this results in Frodo coming within biting distance of a fellbeast.

 

Death.  "Far green country" indeed!?  

 

 

Scenes missing / changed

 

Quite a few, but let us not quibble when:

 

The real reason why the Ring was destroyed at the end changes.  Which is kind of a big thing, you know.

 

 

 

 

 

In short, it seems to me that the issue here is not that the LoTR films are particularly faithful (they, IMO naturally, become less so as they progress) but that you consider the changes less important than others do.  You also believe the changes to WoT are greater in magnitude or importance.    

 

You, sir, are no Tolkien purist.

 

 

 

My statement was when the Internet was where it is now, yes you had an internet, but the numbers on it where far smaller and it was alot more niche.

[Scarloc99]

On 1/4/2022 at 5:53 AM, Chivalry said:

I enjoyed the first season of the Shannara Chronicles, though it was much different from the book it was derived from (and despite receiving the MTV/youth treatment). The WOT show is far superior to Shannara. 

I thought the Sword of Truth series was garbage, much like the source material. But adapting the work of a sociopath can't be easy, I suppose. For the record, I couldn't get past the first book. That book ruined dragons for me. Again, this show is not on the level of the WOT adaptation.

 

I never read the GOT books, so this is a difficult comparison. The shocking scenes in the show were genuinely shocking, because I had no idea what was coming. But I do think the terrific actors/acting helped elevate the series. At the same time, I found the gratuitous nudity and sadistic rape scenes deeply disturbing...not my cup of tea. 

Can the WOT adaptation ever reach the heights of the GOT show? Unless the writers start trying to match the GOT, devastating death for devastating death, and bawdy scene for bawdy scene...it will probably never become a cultural phenomenon. Lightning rarely strikes twice, especially so close in time. But the WOT still has the potential to be something truly special. The last episode of Season 1 left a bad taste in my mouth. Rafe and the WOT team have a lot of work to do next season.

 

 

I mean WOT has the potential for equally sadistic rape scenes, and also more disturbing scenes as Compulsion is used to make people do things they never would. 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/4/2022 at 9:35 AM, Testeria said:

 

Jackson is just a bad director - so when the story was more or less linear he did well, but whenever we have two or more parallel stories he loses his grip.

I'd say it is even worse with Rafe. Couldn't they really find someone with more experience and success stories for the 100+mln$ show? It so strange to me.

 

I will also say that no one had ever tried filming 3 movies simultaneously. 

Rafe is not directing this, he has the Feige Role of just overseeing the overall series, overseeing the writers and directors and making sure there is a commonality through it all. He is far more involved in the writing then Kevin Feige would be, but, every single marvel script goes across his desk and is stamped with his approval. 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/4/2022 at 5:37 PM, divica said:

I am sorry, but you have a character that kills a trollock with a little knife without having any training, tracks some people that should be untrackable and puts a sword to the neck of one of the best warrior of the series (without training), heals a bunch of people from near death (without training), shileds against a major threat in the series (wihtout training) and kills thousands of trollocks (without training) and you think ciri is more of a mary sue?

 

I can understand that you like wot better than the witcher, but there are things in the witcher that are miles above wot. 

I mean Nyn Tracks Morraine and Lan in the books, she also sneaks up on them after Shadar Logath and is only spotted by Morraine detecting she is there, Lan has no idea and shows it in his face. 

no that is not pulling a knife on him but it shows Nyn has the ability to be very very quiet. 

[Scarloc99]

On 1/4/2022 at 5:32 PM, AdamA said:

Comparison to The Witcher is interesting. Witcher season 2 is currently sitting at 94% positive critics rating and 61% fan ratings. That is stark contrast to the first season, which was 68%/91%. The consensus from pretty much everyone in gen pop is season 2 was a big improvement on season 1, and I personally agree with that. Gripping scenes, interesting characters I want to root for, makes the Nilfgaardians way more complicated and less pointlessly evil. But the season is getting carpet-bombed by 1/2 star reviews from book fans whose gripe is basically just "deviates from the books." I'm not sure where because I never read them, but you can see the way this colors perception.

 

And I can see it with myself with WoT. I think a fair amount of season one amounted to mediocre television, though I wouldn't call any of it "bad" by any stretch. But a whole lot of stuff that bugged me only bugged me because I was expecting one thing and got another or anticipating what future impact it might have based on knowing where the book story eventually goes. A clean slate perception would definitely be different.

 

It seems like a lot of people just don't like Eye of the World, though. Complaints about Mat not speaking old tongue when he doesn't speak old tongue until the fourth book. You're remembering his character from the entire series. He was practically a non-entity cipher until he gets cured in book three. The "Mary Sue" stuff makes it seem like you don't like Wheel of Time itself. All of the EF5 and Elayne are "Mary Sues" by the standard they can do stuff without much justification. Elayne rediscovers how to make angreal. Nynaeve heals stilling and gentling. All things no one has done in 3,000 years. They couldn't have received training even in principle since no one else knows how to do it. Rand defeats the most powerful of the forsaken three times in a row before he receives a lick of training. Mat and Perrin become military masterminds with no military background. Mat literally wins fights by luck. Egwene out-maneuvers Aes Sedai with decades of political experience who apparently just forgot to read their own law books. Egwene also figures out how to make cuendillar without anyone teaching her, another thing no one has done for 3,000 years.

 

None of that matches the actual definition of a Mary Sue and the term is being abused to death, but if your concern is barely adult characters being severely overpowered and outperforming much more experienced older characters, that is Wheel of Time in a nutshell and it's hard to see how or why you even enjoy the books. It's just standard "chosen one" hero's journey narrative that the chosen one has special abilities and does things no one else can do.

And yet Witcher season 2 is far further from the books the EOTW is, it is an entirely new and different story with massive changes made for no discernable reason other than the writers decided the story was not good enough to tell as written. 

[DojoToad]

11 hours ago, AdamA said:

Didn't Uno also get stabbed with a Mydraal blade? I'm assuming he's also not dead since he was an announcement as major cast for season two, so they have some explaining to do on how someone can survive that.

Miracle cliffhanger resolution - you didn't see what you thought you saw, it was a dream, another miraculous healing blast from Nynaeve.  Plenty of options.  Don't worry, they'll fix it!

[Guest Testeria]

24 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Miracle cliffhanger resolution - you didn't see what you thought you saw, it was a dream, another miraculous healing blast from Nynaeve.  Plenty of options.  Don't worry, they'll fix it!

 

Or Egwene, don't forget she is a healer too. Or some female trolloc who decide to not be evil anymore, who knows?

 

 

38 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

And yet Witcher season 2 is far further from the books the EOTW is, it is an entirely new and different story with massive changes made for no discernable reason other than the writers decided the story was not good enough to tell as written. 

 

My wife who is fan of the novels (the witcher books are kind of two different parts: short stories and novels) says the story is ok but there is no real reason to change it. She also says that WoTTv is surely NOT "LoTR for women" because there is no handsome enough and competent enough male there for her to watch for ? So for her the Witcher is more for women then WoT, even while she dislikes the book changes.

[CanisNoir]

15 hours ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

One more thing.  We keep going back to Canon but the show clearly doesn't care a fig for Canon.   If they did you can't heal the dead and Fain's dagger would have killed Loial in seconds with two stabs to the torso.  

 

Nynaeve wasn't dead when she was healed and we never actually saw Fain use the Shadar Logoth dagger to Stab Loial. For all we know, his wounds could be a result of a Fade. 

 

It wouldn't be the first time they tried to use our expectations against us. Though I agree, both scenes were done poorly in my opinion.

[Raal Gurniss]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

And yet Witcher season 2 is far further from the books the EOTW is, it is an entirely new and different story with massive changes made for no discernable reason other than the writers decided the story was not good enough to tell as written. 

Perhaps they didn’t alienate the prior fanbase quite as much by what they changed?

[Chivalry]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I mean WOT has the potential for equally sadistic rape scenes, and also more disturbing scenes as Compulsion is used to make people do things they never would. 

 

That sadistic stuff is mostly "off-screen", as is a lot of the brutality. It's mentioned, not shown. I'm hoping the show keeps it that way. Learn from the mistakes of GOT.

 

[Deviations]

14 hours ago, AdamA said:

But we never saw an Ogier stabbed with it in books, so that is an easy get-out if they want

They clearly don't follow many things in the books.  They don't even need a 'get-out' to continue on as they started.

 

 

[CanisNoir]

1 hour ago, Testeria said:

 

Or Egwene, don't forget she is a healer too. Or some female trolloc who decide to not be evil anymore, who knows?

 

 

 

My wife who is fan of the novels (the witcher books are kind of two different parts: short stories and novels) says the story is ok but there is no real reason to change it. She also says that WoTTv is surely NOT "LoTR for women" because there is no handsome enough and competent enough male there for her to watch for ? So for her the Witcher is more for women then WoT, even while she dislikes the book changes.

 

I honestly don't understand seeing a lack of "competent men" in TWoT, If anything, the first season showed Men being more competent than the women. The end of the season saw Moraine fooled and bested at The Eye of the world. She's left sitting down and sobbing after being shielded.  Egwene and Nynaeve are almost killed by Amalisa who can't control her own channeling, and Egwene heals Nynaeve without knowing what she's doing. (i.e. That isn't competence). Let's look at the men now.

Mat - See's danger and most likely death ahead, says "no thanks, I've got little sisters to protect" and bails. Yes, this was due to production, but still shows competence. He made a risk assessment, prioritized his sisters and made a choice. 

Perrin - Struggles between his raging violence or The Way of The Leaf that is so attractive to him. He seeks council from Loial, follows the advice and helps dig up The Horn. Upon seeing an intruder he follows him in hopes of catching him. Yes, he finds Fain and 2 Fades which is a suicide battle for most people, and so he does nothing. This is neither incompetent nor truly cowardice though I'm sure he'll be wondering about that moment going forward.

Rand - Comes to terms with being the most dangerous person in the world, destined to go mad and kill everyone he loves. Despite this he follows Moirain to The Eye, untrained and ignorant, not because he's incompetent, but because it's the right thing to do in order to protect his friends and loved ones.

 

The only female main character that had any semblance of Agency at the end was Moiraine and she messed it up badly. Meanwhile, every single male main character not only had agency but made, for the most part, the morally correct choice.

 

So I don't see how people think the show somehow favored women at the expense of men.

 

[Deviations]

3 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

The only female main character that had any semblance of Agency at the end was Moiraine and she messed it up badly. Meanwhile, every single male main character not only had agency but made, for the most part, the morally correct choice.

You've stated your arguments well.  The issue is that we don't get to see 'badassery'.  Perrin killing whitcloaks that were attacking his wolf friends would be one example.  Lan's constant work scouting ahead with Moraine and Nynaeve is a more subtle example.  Even Lan teaching the boys about their weapons is gone.

 

Meanwhile, Nynaeve power heals a bunch of people at once.  The ladies kill thousands of trollocs that made short work of a nation's entire army, etc., etc., etc.

[Deviations]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Mat and Perrin become military masterminds with no military background.

Perrin wins through dogged determination to do what's right.

Mat had holes in his memories filled with those were were rightfully military masterminds.

 

[Skipp]

35 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

Nynaeve wasn't dead when she was healed and we never actually saw Fain use the Shadar Logoth dagger to Stab Loial. For all we know, his wounds could be a result of a Fade. 

 

It wouldn't be the first time they tried to use our expectations against us. Though I agree, both scenes were done poorly in my opinion.

 

I do believe we see Fain stand up from kneeling above Loial and put the SL dagger in it's sheath.  I could be misremembering though.

[DaddyFinn]

12 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

I do believe we see Fain stand up from kneeling above Loial and put the SL dagger in it's sheath.  I could be misremembering though.

There's also a frame of the dagger with blood on the blade IIRC

 

Edit. Found a pic

 

Edited January 6, 2022 by DaddyFinn

[Jaysen Gore]

25 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

 

That sadistic stuff is mostly "off-screen", as is a lot of the brutality. It's mentioned, not shown. I'm hoping the show keeps it that way. Learn from the mistakes of GOT.

 

Except that the nudity, cruelty and violence was a real draw for GoT.  It's not Porn, it's HBO! The only complaint I ever heard about GoT crossing the line was Sansa / Ramsey / Sansa's end comments to the Hound.

 

I can see a lot of the brutality being sound and post action images, because WoT is going for a different tone. What I'll be really, really curious to see in this regard though, is how much spanking is kept in, and if they don't keep it, how the "discipline" of the Aiel and Tower will adjust accordingly. And there's a lot of domestic violence between Perrin and Faile, which may not go over well.

[CanisNoir]

20 minutes ago, Deviations said:

You've stated your arguments well.  The issue is that we don't get to see 'badassery'.  Perrin killing whitcloaks that were attacking his wolf friends would be one example.  Lan's constant work scouting ahead with Moraine and Nynaeve is a more subtle example.  Even Lan teaching the boys about their weapons is gone.

 

Meanwhile, Nynaeve power heals a bunch of people at once.  The ladies kill thousands of trollocs that made short work of a nation's entire army, etc., etc., etc.

 

To be honest, I think our reaction to that says more about us as viewers than it does the show. Why do we assume that flashy displays of raw power equate to competence or "badassery" instead of someone who quietly struggles with a difficult and gigantic moral quandary and in the end chooses the hard but right path? 

Is Suprman "Superman" because he can leap tall buildings in a single bound, or because he fights for Truth, Justice and is always trying to make the morally correct choice? Considering how many villains we've seen with similar powers, I'd say it's the later that makes him "Superman". 

 

With regards to Lan, his moving back and forth to cover\protect their path is implied heavily in Episode 2.  He goes into the Blight alone and not only survives but locates Moiraine and is the "Rock" she leans upon.

 

Yes, we see flashy displays of raw untrained power from the ladies, but, in my opinion, that is the wrong thing to look to for examples of being elevated, especially when those displays don't really prevent the over all failure that occurrs. 

[CanisNoir]

19 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

There's also a frame of the dagger with blood on the blade IIRC

 

Edit. Found a pic

 

 

I stand corrected; yea, I'll have to see how they course correct on that one. 

[DaddyFinn]

3 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

I stand corrected; yea, I'll have to see how they course correct on that one. 

Maybe its powers get stronger as the show goes on?

[Ralph]

7 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

 

To be honest, I think our reaction to that says more about us as viewers than it does the show. Why do we assume that flashy displays of raw power equate to competence or "badassery" instead of someone who quietly struggles with a difficult and gigantic moral quandary and in the end chooses the hard but right path? 

Is Suprman "Superman" because he can leap tall buildings in a single bound, or because he fights for Truth, Justice and is always trying to make the morally correct choice? Considering how many villains we've seen with similar powers, I'd say it's the later that makes him "Superman". 

 

With regards to Lan, his moving back and forth to cover\protect their path is implied heavily in Episode 2.  He goes into the Blight alone and not only survives but locates Moiraine and is the "Rock" she leans upon.

 

Yes, we see flashy displays of raw untrained power from the ladies, but, in my opinion, that is the wrong thing to look to for examples of being elevated, especially when those displays don't really prevent the over all failure that occurrs. 

Exactly

 

And similarly, without any lightning or flash displays of power, Rand's defeat of what we are meant to think is the DO, is itself the most significant moment in the Series. Even if it is correct that the DO is happy that this happens, it is still his victory at that moment, both in terms of overcoming the seductive vision and in terms of using his power. 

[Truthteller]

7 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Exactly

 

And similarly, without any lightning or flash displays of power, Rand's defeat of what we are meant to think is the DO, is itself the most significant moment in the Series. Even if it is correct that the DO is happy that this happens, it is still his victory at that moment, both in terms of overcoming the seductive vision and in terms of using his power. 

Rafe said straight out that he wanted to spread the big moments out more equally.  But the consequence of this is that Rand doesn’t get his big moment of power.  But this ruins the whole theme of the seduction of power.  He hasn’t tasted what you can do with the power yet, and without having actually done it, the power isn’t as seductive.  The temptation is all theoretical and abstract. 
 

And this captures so much of what is wrong  about the series.  Because Rafe is motivated by his own version of equality, and because he thinks the character development of the series needs to be accelerated, he makes changes to the story.

 

But these changes haven’t been thought through, and as a result you get neither equality nor character development.