Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[AdamA]

16 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Not first. 2nd or 3rd...

First fight. In the panarch's museum in Tanchico when Nyneave cuts her off from the source and binds her is what I'm thinking of (quoted above). The first encounter was Moghedien coming into a room unexpected and compulsing them to tell her why they're there. But the first actual fight is in the panarch's museum. The second fight is in tel'aran'rhiod and Moghedien twists her into a suspiria knot. The third time they fight, Nynaeve collars her and uses her against her will to set Rahvin on fire so Rand can see where he is, otherwise Rand gets killed in Caemlyn.

 

I'll bet you almost anything if that scene gets translated to screen exactly as-is, we'll have a bevy of complainers on this forum talking about wonder girls and castrating Rand because he needed her help.

[DojoToad]

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

First fight. In the panarch's museum in Tanchico when Nyneave cuts her off from the source and binds her is what I'm thinking of (quoted above). The first encounter was Moghedien coming into a room unexpected and compulsing them to tell her why they're there. But the first actual fight is in the panarch's museum. The second fight is in tel'aran'rhiod and Moghedien twists her into a suspiria knot. The third time they fight, Nynaeve collars her and uses her against her will to set Rahvin on fire so Rand can see where he is, otherwise Rand gets killed in Caemlyn.

 

I'll bet you almost anything if that scene gets translated to screen exactly as-is, we'll have a bevy of complainers on this forum talking about wonder girls and castrating Rand because he needed her help.

Not if it's canon, you won't - at least not from me.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

1 hour ago, AdamA said:

I'll bet you almost anything if that scene gets translated to screen exactly as-is, we'll have a bevy of complainers on this forum talking about wonder girls and castrating Rand because he needed her help.

Yeah no problem here from me. 

 

A woman saving a man in a show is fine and cool. However, changing an pre-existing story to give moments which belonged to certain characters in the books to other characters in the show is something else entirely. 

 

If these instances were rare in WoTtv, then I would be much more forgiving of them. Instead, the showrunners willingness to do these swaps is so prevalent that it's a much bigger surprise when something happens in a way which hasn't been overtly tampered with. This is where problems arise IMO 

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think you're both forgetting Moggy's first encounter with the girls in Tanchico - where she comes in wearing a disguise, compulses them to answer questions, and then wipes their memories of the discussion. It wasn't a fight, per se, but it was their first encounter.

 

 

Was mentioned by GF. But as stated, that was not a fight between them

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

To expand on my idea above, I would feel the same way if the show started randomly giving big Nynaeve/Egwene moments to minor male characters for seemingly no reason (Tarwin's Gap, for example).

 

Like, if for some reason it was Mat and some random dude who rescued Egwene from the Seanchan in Season 2 (assuming that even happens), I would be equally frustrated that such a cool moment was taken from Nynaeve, Elayne, and Min. 

 

WoTtv seems to be operating on the logic that WoT is a series of events (Eye of the World, for example) and as long as someone defeats the Trollocs and the Horn of  Valere is somewhere around there, then its all gravy and they've been "faithful" to the source material. 

 

I just expect a little more than that, is all. I think details matter. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by JeffTheWoodlandElf
Added last paragraph

[CanisNoir]

26 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

To expand on my idea above, I would feel the same way if the show started randomly giving big Nynaeve/Egwene moments to minor male characters for seemingly no reason (Tarwin's Gap, for example).

 

Like, if for some reason it was Mat and some random dude who rescued Egwene from the Seanchan in Season 2 (assuming that even happens), I would be equally frustrated that such a cool moment was taken from Nynaeve, Elayne, and Min. 

 

WoTtv seems to be operating on the logic that WoT is a series of events (Eye of the World, for example) and as long as someone defeats the Trollocs and the Horn of  Valere is somewhere around there, then its all gravy and they've been "faithful" to the source material. 

 

I just expect a little more than that, is all. I think details matter. 

 

It really is in the eye of the beholder, but for me the changes made, while not all ones I would have made, are justifiable. I do not believe they are just trying to hit beats without any regard to the source. Though they do make sure to hit certain "key" beats. 

 

With regards to comparing it to different adaptations, I think it's kind of difficult. Most other adaptations have completed, while WoT just finished it's first season. I started this, however, comparing the adaptation styles between WoT and GoT because I enjoy both sets of books and am excited both made it to the small screen.

 

The first difference I noticed was the difference between adapting a "book" versus adapting a "story". GoT Season 1 was an adaption of Book 1 in the series. They chose "Game of Thrones" over "Song of Ice and Fire" because the focal point of the show would be who rules in Kings Landing. I think much of this was because the series wasn't finished, but they knew who Martin wanted sitting on the throne at the end. It also allowed them to focus on political drama instead of the more Mystical aspects and The Night King. In addition, since the source wasn't finished, they didn't have a pre-planned "end game" which, in my opinion, really showed as seasons went on.

 

Rafe has said he's adapting the series, not a book, and so he has an 8 season plan which means much of the 15 books will be cut\altered. This is not because he thinks he can write better story, but because the realities surrounding a 15 Season TV show just don't exist. This will invariably change your adaptation style as it forces you to deviate from the source more, but also gives you the flexability of a known "end game" so that the changes can be grounded in cannon. 

 

There have been some differences in exposition, such as TWoT having their characters introduce themselves\each other when they meet at the Inn. GoT had Arya list off each character and their nick names as they rode into Winterfell. Both were a bit clunky, but in this instance I feel Rafe chose best. Arya was providing information to people who already knew it, just so the TV Audience would know it, while Mat introduces us to Rand and Perrin injecting the information in a more conversational way. "Perrin here is married so his life is over, Rand is pining over Egwene all cold and lonely on the mountain" or something similar. 

 

I do find seeing the different choices the show runners make to be interesting, but in the end I do believe most of them stem from TWoT being complete while ASoIaF was not.

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

28 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

Rafe has said he's adapting the series, not a book, and so he has an 8 season plan which means much of the 15 books will be cut\altered. This is not because he thinks he can write better story, but because the realities surrounding a 15 Season TV show just don't exist.

Your entire post was very well reasoned an intelligent. I'll just respond to this short bit here. 

 

Having seen the finished product, I think this was the wrong approach, at least with regards to Season 1. I think a much smarter, more effective way to approach the adaptation would have been to keep Season 1 straightforward and then gradually increase the deviations from the source material as the series went on. 

 

Here's my hot take: 

 

I would have rather had 4-6 seasons of a show which more faithfully adapted the source material and then totally collapsed under its own weight then whatever this show was. At least then I'd have some fond memories to comfort me. 

[CanisNoir]

35 minutes ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Your entire post was very well reasoned an intelligent. I'll just respond to this short bit here. 

 

Having seen the finished product, I think this was the wrong approach, at least with regards to Season 1. I think a much smarter, more effective way to approach the adaptation would have been to keep Season 1 straightforward and then gradually increase the deviations from the source material as the series went on. 

 

Here's my hot take: 

 

I would have rather had 4-6 seasons of a show which more faithfully adapted the source material and then totally collapsed under its own weight then whatever this show was. At least then I'd have some fond memories to comfort me. 

 

Thanks, I try :) And I appreciate the reasoned response. To further expand on my point and explain why I feel a more faithful adaptation of Eye of The World would have been a mistake, let's look at "The Mystery". Hiding who the dragon was and expanding the possibilities to include women seems to be a focal point for not only many complaints, but also for other changes made. 

 

Martin had worked in TV prior to writing GoT and I believe he wrote it with an adaptation in mind. This is why, in my opinion, the mystery of "Who killed the Old Hand and Why" exists in the first book and first season of Game of Thrones.  A mystery immediately engages the audience and gets conversations started about you show as people guess and theorize. That it was part of the first book meant that the Show Runners could keep the mystery and still adapt fairly faithfully to the source.

Eye of the World doesn't really have that same level of mystery. Because Rand is the Protagonist, as an audience we know right away that he's the dragon. We spend most of our time in his head as he grapples with it. The other characters in the book, however, don't know right away, which is the "kernel" of the source I think they pulled from for the TV Show. 

 

Now that just addresses the mystery "hook", that both shows utilize to their advantage. I do think the season finale was a bit of a misfire though. How much of that is due to covid and how much could have been salvaged by not showing the battle at Tarwins Gap, I don't know. Here is what I do know...

GoT Season 1 Finale saw the birth of 3 dragons, Sansa prisoner to the king that just beheaded her father and set to marry him, Arya with hair cut traveling in disguise to The Wall, Rob with his banners continuing a war of multiple kings and Jon marching beyond the wall. All of our major characters have taken their first steps into Season 2.

TWoT season 1 Finale saw seated and weeping on Lans shoulder, Egwene and Nynaeve laying on the ground after being healed, Perrin staring out into a landscape while Loial and Uno bleed out behind him, and Rand being the only one stepping into Season 2, but his destination being so vague as to be uninteresting.  We did get some new scary people in boats we see for about a minute. And yes I get that the shot was meant to symbolize the Seanchan attack on the White Tower, but they were too clever for their own good and it just looks like a Tsunami meant to kill a little girl. 

 

I do hope they get better at setting the table for the next season because as far as adaptions go, GoT wins the Season 1 Finale comparison pretty easily in my opinion. 

 

 

[EmreY]

14 minutes ago, CanisNoir said:

the shot was meant to symbolize the Seanchan attack on the White Tower

 

It was?  Oh, the things I missed while watching.

 

 

1 hour ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

I would have rather had 4-6 seasons of a show which more faithfully adapted the source material and then totally collapsed under its own weight then whatever this show was. At least then I'd have some fond memories to comfort me. 

 

A fair and honest answer, and as valid an opinion as any.

Edited January 5, 2022 by EmreY

[Jaysen Gore]

3 hours ago, CanisNoir said:

 

The first difference I noticed was the difference between adapting a "book" versus adapting a "story". GoT Season 1 was an adaption of Book 1 in the series. They chose "Game of Thrones" over "Song of Ice and Fire" because the focal point of the show would be who rules in Kings Landing. I think much of this was because the series wasn't finished, but they knew who Martin wanted sitting on the throne at the end. It also allowed them to focus on political drama instead of the more Mystical aspects and The Night King. In addition, since the source wasn't finished, they didn't have a pre-planned "end game" which, in my opinion, really showed as seasons went on.

 

Rafe has said he's adapting the series, not a book, and so he has an 8 season plan which means much of the 15 books will be cut\altered.

I liked all of your post but will specifically comment on this; there's an even better example of telling a self-contained story versus setting up a series to succeed - Star Wars. I'm willing to bet that if anyone were to re-tell the Skywalker Saga from episode 1 to episode 9, knowing what we know now, many things would be radically, radically altered.  But by making changes to make 1 story (ep. 4) as good as possible, Lucas did extensive damage to his grand saga, and they ultimately never recovered.

 

and those theoretical changes that would have done to SW are what HAS happened to the EOTW story - it's less focused, it's less character specific, it has a much messier ending, and it contains a whole bunch of things that won't be needed for a few years.

[Spiritweaver1]

21 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

And I'd also add the false narrator aspect of the story to this; Yes, Ishamael just tied Moiraine in knots (pun intended), but beyond that, the Forsaken of legend are not materially more powerful than the most powerful channellers of this age.  More knowledgeable, better trained, longer lived, with all the experience that entails, but I never really got the impression that the Forsaken were the Fallen Angels / Balrog equivalent that people think of them as. The role as Forsaken was because of their willingness to do great evil, not because they were necessarily powerful.

This is correct there are numerous places in the books where there are some power comparisons.  Nyn is not even the most powerful of the DR's posse.  I believe that belonged to Alivia, the Seanchan ex-Damane.  Per the Wot Wiki only Lanfear and Semirhage are equal to her.   I thought somewhere in the books it said that Lanfear was the most powerful of the women Forsaken.    Nyn is clearly stronger than  Mogs but not the others.  I believe LTT was the most powerful male channeler although there were  a couple of Forsaken who wouldn't agree.  

[Jaysen Gore]

2 hours ago, JeffTheWoodlandElf said:

Your entire post was very well reasoned an intelligent. I'll just respond to this short bit here. 

 

Having seen the finished product, I think this was the wrong approach, at least with regards to Season 1. I think a much smarter, more effective way to approach the adaptation would have been to keep Season 1 straightforward and then gradually increase the deviations from the source material as the series went on. 

 

Here's my hot take: 

 

I would have rather had 4-6 seasons of a show which more faithfully adapted the source material and then totally collapsed under its own weight then whatever this show was. At least then I'd have some fond memories to comfort me. 

On point the first, the single biggest complaint I saw about the EOTW - long before all the PC discussions - was that it was way too derivative of the LOTR, and that was before the movies seared LOTR into the collective psyche of the general public.  Some of the changes made to this season were intentional to decrease that comparison. I understand what you're saying, but there was a legit rationale for them. Those changes did decrease the short term enjoyment, with some of us hoping that it will position the full story for longer term success.

 

On point the second, while I understand what you're saying, D&D may have had their careers ruined by what happened with GoT.  It has become a meme show, and as was pointed out in one of Daniel Greene's videos, with all the Covid lockdowns and time on peoples' hands, there's no re-watch parties, no deeper dives, and limited fan activity for the show. It didn't just collapse leaving fond memories, it destroyed things retroactively. Heh. Effectively, "The Bells" was the sound of Balefire for people's enjoyment of GoT

[AdamA]

17 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

This is correct there are numerous places in the books where there are some power comparisons.  Nyn is not even the most powerful of the DR's posse.  I believe that belonged to Alivia, the Seanchan ex-Damane.  Per the Wot Wiki only Lanfear and Semirhage are equal to her.   I thought somewhere in the books it said that Lanfear was the most powerful of the women Forsaken.    Nyn is clearly stronger than  Mogs but not the others.  I believe LTT was the most powerful male channeler although there were  a couple of Forsaken who wouldn't agree.  

Rand/LTT, Ishamael, and Rahvin were all tied at ++1 on the "official" power scale, which is the most powerful a male channeler can be. Alivia is tied with Lanfear and Semirhage at 1(+12), which is the most powerful a female channeler can be. Nynaeve is a 3(+10), one level higher than Moghedien at 4(+9). They have the complete list here: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/One_Power#Strength, cribbed from the notes RJ used to make sure he didn't accidentally contradict himself between books, though I think this may have been published in the Wheel of Time Companion eventually.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the show changed things a bit to get rid of the male/female strength potential discrepancy while otherwise keeping the relative rankings within each gender, given everything else we've seen. For one, Logain canonically is quite a bit stronger than Nynaeve, 7 levels higher, and probably shouldn't be totally wowed by what she can do, though Nynaeve is a lot stronger than Moiraine, Kerene, and Alanna. Technically, Logain is the most powerful of the DR posse, though Alivia is the most powerful female.

[Skipp]

25 minutes ago, AdamA said:

Rand/LTT, Ishamael, and Rahvin were all tied at ++1 on the "official" power scale, which is the most powerful a male channeler can be. Alivia is tied with Lanfear and Semirhage at 1(+12), which is the most powerful a female channeler can be. Nynaeve is a 3(+10), one level higher than Moghedien at 4(+9). They have the complete list here: https://wot.fandom.com/wiki/One_Power#Strength, cribbed from the notes RJ used to make sure he didn't accidentally contradict himself between books, though I think this may have been published in the Wheel of Time Companion eventually.

 

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the show changed things a bit to get rid of the male/female strength potential discrepancy while otherwise keeping the relative rankings within each gender, given everything else we've seen. For one, Logain canonically is quite a bit stronger than Nynaeve, 7 levels higher, and probably shouldn't be totally wowed by what she can do, though Nynaeve is a lot stronger than Moiraine, Kerene, and Alanna. Technically, Logain is the most powerful of the DR posse, though Alivia is the most powerful female.

 

I have little doubt that the One Power strength chart will be changed up for the series.  There is little reason for men to be stronger in raw power but women being more dexterous.  Not that we ever saw what was meant by more dexterous.

 

And honestly I don't think we lose anything by having that change.

[Spiritweaver1]

22 minutes ago, Skipp said:

 

I have little doubt that the One Power strength chart will be changed up for the series.  There is little reason for men to be stronger in raw power but women being more dexterous.  Not that we ever saw what was meant by more dexterous.

 

And honestly I don't think we lose anything by having that change.

I agree with your assessment.  I don't think it really matters much in the larger context of the observable arc's of the females vs males in the show.  

[Spiritweaver1]

One more thing.  We keep going back to Canon but the show clearly doesn't care a fig for Canon.   If they did you can't heal the dead and Fain's dagger would have killed Loial in seconds with two stabs to the torso.  

[Gothic Flame]

If they're changing things then there's no reason for men channelers going mad. 

[Skipp]

10 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

I agree with your assessment.  I don't think it really matters much in the larger context of the observable arc's of the females vs males in the show.  

As long as most of the "relative" strengths are kept then nothing should really change in the show itself thankfully.

 

7 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

One more thing.  We keep going back to Canon but the show clearly doesn't care a fig for Canon.   If they did you can't heal the dead and Fain's dagger would have killed Loial in seconds with two stabs to the torso.  

While I don't believe Nynaeve was actually dead, the BTS stuff supports this, it certainly wasn't conveyed well onscreen.

 

As for the dagger stab you are most certainly correct.  This is where we see the harm of Barney's departure.  If true that the plan was to have Mat stabbed it wouldn't have been much of an issue.  While Mat was never stabbed with the dagger we know the Dagger's affect didn't bother Fain as he seemly cut his fingers on it often in tGH.  We could have easily said anyone who had actually "wielded" the dagger had some form of resistance.

[Ralph]

18 minutes ago, Skipp said:

As long as most of the "relative" strengths are kept then nothing should really change in the show itself thankfully.

 

While I don't believe Nynaeve was actually dead, the BTS stuff supports this, it certainly wasn't conveyed well onscreen.

 

As for the dagger stab you are most certainly correct.  This is where we see the harm of Barney's departure.  If true that the plan was to have Mat stabbed it wouldn't have been much of an issue.  While Mat was never stabbed with the dagger we know the Dagger's affect didn't bother Fain as he seemly cut his fingers on it often in tGH.  We could have easily said anyone who had actually "wielded" the dagger had some form of resistance.

We have yet to see how they justify Loial's survival. But we never saw an Ogier stabbed with it in books, so that is an easy get-out if they want

[Skipp]

6 minutes ago, Ralph said:

We have yet to see how they justify Loial's survival. But we never saw an Ogier stabbed with it in books, so that is an easy get-out if they want

 Very true

[MasterAblar]

I do wonder if they'll be allowing men to link together if there is no longer the strength/dexterity dynamic. If they don't then that's a rather obvious issue concerning the balance between saidin and saidar.

 

That and the reason women were thought to be needed for LTT's plan is because of their ability to create circles and their greater dexterity. So again if men can create circles, the whole Fateful Concord loses its importance.

 

Honestly though I mainly expect them to just handwave it and not be very specific with the power. If they don't explain well enough there will no doubt be gripes about men being "more powerful" despite the balancing mechanics. So they probably won't bother.

[Jaysen Gore]

22 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

I do wonder if they'll be allowing men to link together if there is no longer the strength/dexterity dynamic. If they don't then that's a rather obvious issue concerning the balance between saidin and saidar.

 

That and the reason women were thought to be needed for LTT's plan is because of their ability to create circles and their greater dexterity. So again if men can create circles, the whole Fateful Concord loses its importance.

 

Honestly though I mainly expect them to just handwave it and not be very specific with the power. If they don't explain well enough there will no doubt be gripes about men being "more powerful" despite the balancing mechanics. So they probably won't bother.

Yeah, I can see them doing this, and then showing what a dozen small circles can do at the Wells, and then really show it off at the end of the series when you have mixed circles.

 

I think you're overthinking this for the TV series - men and women "working together" created the greatest things of the Age. Likely all the description of what LTT intended in the show.

 

And I agree with your third point. While I do love the detail of the magic system in the books, I had 20 years to slowly digest and revisit those concepts, and people retain stuff better reading that watching. In general, TV audiences don't do well with nuance, which is why subtlety often doesn't work. And, in the series, if the Aes Sedai have lost track of even who the Dragon could be, or if they can trust the KC, then I have to think they are ignorant of, or don't believe, most of the stuff about male channeling. 

 

The bigger question on this topic is whether or not they even bother introducing the different elements to the weaves, or just leave it at "the power"

[AdamA]

53 minutes ago, Ralph said:

We have yet to see how they justify Loial's survival. But we never saw an Ogier stabbed with it in books, so that is an easy get-out if they want

Didn't Uno also get stabbed with a Mydraal blade? I'm assuming he's also not dead since he was an announcement as major cast for season two, so they have some explaining to do on how someone can survive that.

[Skipp]

19 minutes ago, AdamA said:

Didn't Uno also get stabbed with a Mydraal blade? I'm assuming he's also not dead since he was an announcement as major cast for season two, so they have some explaining to do on how someone can survive that.

Unfortunately the Fade tainted blades is something that can be lost without actually losing anything.  Fade's are deadly enough that they don't really need the addition of "tainted" blades.

 

As for the Shadar Logoth Dagger they could have it become more powerful the longer it is out of SL.  Allowing for them to stab people early and still have the horrific deaths later.  This was my original head canon for the dagger until someone reminded me of the Seanchan Mat kills near the end of tGH.

[Skipp]

3 hours ago, MasterAblar said:

I do wonder if they'll be allowing men to link together if there is no longer the strength/dexterity dynamic. If they don't then that's a rather obvious issue concerning the balance between saidin and saidar.

 

That and the reason women were thought to be needed for LTT's plan is because of their ability to create circles and their greater dexterity. So again if men can create circles, the whole Fateful Concord loses its importance.

 

Honestly though I mainly expect them to just handwave it and not be very specific with the power. If they don't explain well enough there will no doubt be gripes about men being "more powerful" despite the balancing mechanics. So they probably won't bother.

 

I just finished watching Lezbi Nerdy's tier ranking of the changes and she brought up an interesting thought on what you mentioned.  By having linking no longer having a buffer it now becomes very dangerous to those linked.  Particularly to those not in control of the link.  That certainly brings down the power of linking overall. 

 

Maybe they will introduce that adding a Man to the circle prevents burning out but I personally don't think they will make it that complicated.