Comparing Wheel of Time to other fantasy adaptations

[ArrylT]

5 hours ago, divica said:

I can understand that you like wot better than the witcher, but there are things in the witcher that are miles above wot. 

 

You're certainly welcome and entitled to your opinion.   Atm am doing my best to judge Ep by Ep and currently none of what you have mentioned has occurred by the end of Episode 2 of WoT.     Basically watching The Witcher episodes each 2x and rewatching the corresponding WoT episode # and doing my best to grade them against each other. 

 

If that differs from how you or anyone else chooses to grade the shows that is perfectly fine.  I have zero issue if people prefer The Witcher to WoT.     

Edited January 4, 2022 by ArrylT
spelling edit

[Spiritweaver1]

16 minutes ago, Jaysen Gore said:

They can't do the Lensman series now, since Green Lantern was already done, and took so many of the key concepts from that series for the version that got made. It would appear derivative

 

For the record, WoT is about to run headlong into this with the Fremen, with Dune part 2 out less than 6 months before Season 3 of WoT, which i expect will be the big Aiel intro season

Excellent and very perceptive points on both counts.   However, in this day and age, where these streamers are desperate for new content, I am not sure you can completely rule it out.  There are many zombie out there where they should have stayed dead but they keep on trying to squeeze one more drop of blood from the beet.   What if the lens got implanted in the forehead?   Since the lens was about mental powers not physical powers you might be able to make an adaptation work???

 

1 minute ago, ForsakenPotato said:

But doesn't Rand at the end of EotW also do something awesome that no one has done in recent memory, additionally with no training? (teleport, defeat a foresaken, defeat an army of trollocs). I feel like we just accept it because he's the dragon reborn and the main character, so we expect him to do something impressive. When Nyneave and Egwene along with 3 other women accomplish one small part of what he does in the book we decide it's unreasonable?

Having just reread that book back in November I totally get where you are coming from.  However, it is because he is, in fact, the DR.  A whole main part of Rand's arc is the integration of LTT's knowledge and personality into his own.  Under the stress of his encounter with Aginor he pulls the energy in from the Eye and that triggers past life memories.   However, later he does not remember how to do any of it again and has to be taught. 

 

Now later in the books,  the ladies start really pulling out the unexplainable like suddenly figuring out how to make ter'angreal or healing stilling.  By that time they have been exposed to the teaching of the Forsaken so they, in some respects, beyond the experienced Aes Sedai.  The other point is that the Wheel is weaving out what it needs for the DO's plot to be defeated.    

 

If it turns out that Egw and Nyn are reincarnated hero's from the war of the power then perhaps it will be "reasonable".  It still potentially cuts out much of the growth arc for both.   In Rafeland who knows what the Wheel of Amazon will weave.

 

 

 

 

 

[ArrylT]

6 hours ago, Katherine said:

 

So interesting that you posted this, because this morning I was going through this all in my head. 

 

Are/were you a book fan of The Witcher? I wasn't so I went in to watching S1 without any prior knowledge of the books. I often wonder if that is why I was able to enjoy it so much (despite confusion when it came to rules of magic etc.) 

 

I will go ahead and say that I think that wold building and magic was explained/shown better in Season 1 of WoT than in S1 Of the Witcher. (but maybe my background knowledge of WoT is why I think this?)

 

But IMO there is just no question that production quality and writing are superior in Witcher S1 and S2. THe entire time I watcher Ep1 of Witcher and he was talking to that boar guy and looking at the make-up and CGI combo...... I couldn't help wishing our Trollocs looked that good! 

 

I also disagree that Cirri is a Mary Sue. A huge amount of her arc in season 2 is training and really having no clue how to do what she is doing. Her inadverdent explosions of magic causes horrible things to happen etc. 

 

Egwene seems to have cured death with no training. 

 

Nyn can form supershields against mean voices in the ways and heal tons of people in one blast. 

 

Neither has had (on screen) more than a few moments of training at this point. 

 

 

No I havent read any of the Witcher books or played any of the games.   I am going to read the Last Wish short stories soon and go from there.    

 

Anyways as I said, currently I am trying to do my best to only compare the show 2 episodes in to WoT first 2 episodes.   My co-worker has talked a lot about The Witcher at work so I know that Ciri really is not a Mary Sue character - nor do I dislike her - just if I am being critical I currently see her as that after 2 Episodes.   I am quite happy to WAFO how the season(s) progresses.    

 

Costuming for creatures for example - after 2 episodes I think the only non human species I have encountered are Elves/Sylvan (excluding the Kikimora at the beginning of Ep1) - and there have been a total of 4 I believe.   So 1 on 1 I like the Trolloc practical effects better than the Elves (but I could be biased because I am somewhat pro Elf in fantasy and likely subconsciously compare them to Elves in other shows & books).    There have not really been any CGI involving the Elves that I recall so far, but I certainly would not dispute that the CGI was not perfect for the Trollocs.   

 

I do feel the writing in Episode 2 improved from Episode 1.   And it not like I think the dialogue in either show was either (a) awful or (b) the greatest ever.  More like if this was on a 100 (and this is completely made up for this example) it would be like a 75 vs. a 72 after 1 episode and now both would be graded 77s.    I try to grade it on how it feels to me (natural vs. stilted), and how it fits into the show (is it an expo dump?).

 

One thing I thought was pretty kewl of Jaxier was his comment about him being an exposition dump.   I thought that was a nice comment that worked on multiple layers.    

 

Anyways in no way am I trashing the Witcher, hopefully that is clear. ?

[Jaysen Gore]

29 minutes ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

What you say in your overall post makes sense.  However, I have a problem in that for Nyn and Egw there appears to be no hero's journey.  They are already awesome and already doing things that nobody in the books could do ever.  Where are their struggles?  The learning?  That is what I really enjoy about the books is the character arc's.   That is what made the LOTR adaptation so successful for me as a long time book fan.  I had problems with no Tom Bombadil and no scouring of the shire but ultimately it was the hero's journey of our fellowship characters and the fact that they used a lot of dialog verbatim from the books.   LOTR is by far the best adaptation in my opinion.  I had so hoped for the WoT but they are going a different way.  Right now I rate them closer  to the Legend of Earthsea than LOTR.  I was unable to complete one season of the Witcher or GoT.   The Witcher because it seemed too much to be a monster of the week and GoT because it had too much gratuitous sex and violence and no hero's journey that I could discern after 7 episodes.

I think the thing they've done is spend all of S1 on the World, and the Hero's journeys for all 5 will start in S2. Rand learning what it means to be the Dragon, Mat thinking beyond himself and his sisters, Perrin actively learning about the wolves and how to balance peace and violence, Nynaeve's block - now trauma / fear induced, and Egwene's seasons of abuse all start next year.  So we will get the journeys we expect, and any new world building will support them, instead of being front and centre.

 

GoT's only true hero was Jon, and he was a loser. That was the point Martin was trying to send. 

Most of the hero's journeys in LOTR were NOT in the books and represent changes for modern sensibilities. The kind WoT is getting roasted for. 

 

I have not seen The Witcher, but everything I've heard sounds Monster of the Week-y. I prefer Conan to Geralt in book form.

[Blackbyrd]

On 1/3/2022 at 7:28 AM, Jaysen Gore said:

And here we have the heart of the issue - it's not that LOTR didn't have major changes, it's that you agree with the changes they made.  So you're downplaying them.  And Jackson basically said "Tolkien didn't get this right" in a number of interviews. as has Judkins.  So there's no purity test from the directors, either.

 

I don't agree with many of the changes that were made in WoT, and have been vocal about them.  A lot of small decisions smack of bad writing in the Hollywood tradition. But for the most part, I understand the decisions they're making in the context of a pandemic produced season 1 of a TV show when more than 1/2 of the content of the series needs to get dropped.  So I at least have some belief that they will be able to produce an internally consistent version of WoT. Even if it's not exactly like the books.

 

 

And going further into actually giving Wot or any adaptation really a good critique then one has to look at what changes work, and the way they did or did not work. For instance: the whole DR mystery is pretty bleh to me but it apparently worked pretty well for a lot of people which has always made sense. I may not care for a lot of TV style writing but their is data there. Another thing to remember isn't that Jackson or Rafe likely think that they are better than the author but rather they and their entire crew are putting their own stamp on it, and anyone who thinks that wouldn't happen must have missed the majority of all adaptations across time as literally that will always happen in a screen adaptation, and it in fact did happen to the very ending of the books of WoT

 

As for comparing it to Witcher there is an interesting possibility that Rafe and Co are very much aware of the Witcher and know full well there's no way they will be able to out bro it. The Witcher almost assuredly has most of the casual Thrones fans & all the other fantasy broskis who dig the action, the nudity, and the 'realistic' grit locked up. There are a lot of epic moments in Wot but trying to out bro a show that stars Cavill probably isn't the right play- and look what they did, they played to the soft core romance crowd -which is huge- and are even playing around with the dreaded love triangle but even that could work because the crowd that gets into that are for the most part opposite of all the Witcher brochachos you see on this very forum. Now all that may not even be a thing but the point is that it's important to remember how much data TV/Movie executives have, and all that data does work even if it produces results that are often not as deep or compelling -that would involve taking a chance- as they could be

 

 

[AdamA]

1 hour ago, Spiritweaver1 said:

What you say in your overall post makes sense.  However, I have a problem in that for Nyn and Egw there appears to be no hero's journey.  They are already awesome and already doing things that nobody in the books could do ever.  Where are their struggles?  The learning?  That is what I really enjoy about the books is the character arc's.  

I don't see Egwene and Nynaeve's arcs as ever being "get powerful," though. Nynaeave defeats a forsaken on her first try after spending a couple months in the tower and not even having to be a novice. Overpowered from the start is a defining character trait for her. Her arc is learning to accept that she's not perfect, makes mistakes, and needs to be more humble and defer to others and not be such a dick all the time. Also coming to accept the other Aes Sedai and not think of herself as above them. Egwene's arc is in learning to become a leader.

[RhienneAgain]

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

But doesn't Rand at the end of EotW also do something awesome that no one has done in recent memory, additionally with no training? (teleport, defeat a foresaken, defeat an army of trollocs). I feel like we just accept it because he's the dragon reborn and the main character, so we expect him to do something impressive. When Nyneave and Egwene along with 3 other women accomplish one small part of what he does in the book we decide it's unreasonable?

Well yes, because there is an in-world rationale for it - he is the Dragon Reborn and ta'veren and the women aren't.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, ForsakenPotato said:

But doesn't Rand at the end of EotW also do something awesome that no one has done in recent memory, additionally with no training? (teleport, defeat a foresaken, defeat an army of trollocs). I feel like we just accept it because he's the dragon reborn and the main character, so we expect him to do something impressive. When Nyneave and Egwene along with 3 other women accomplish one small part of what he does in the book we decide it's unreasonable?

But it's not Rand. It's Lews Therin.

[Gothic Flame]

29 minutes ago, AdamA said:

Nynaeave defeats a forsaken on her first try

Not first. 2nd or 3rd...

[Jaysen Gore]

10 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Not first. 2nd or 3rd...

And I'd also add the false narrator aspect of the story to this; Yes, Ishamael just tied Moiraine in knots (pun intended), but beyond that, the Forsaken of legend are not materially more powerful than the most powerful channellers of this age.  More knowledgeable, better trained, longer lived, with all the experience that entails, but I never really got the impression that the Forsaken were the Fallen Angels / Balrog equivalent that people think of them as. The role as Forsaken was because of their willingness to do great evil, not because they were necessarily powerful.

[Rahns]

2 hours ago, ForsakenPotato said:

But doesn't Rand at the end of EotW also do something awesome that no one has done in recent memory, additionally with no training? (teleport, defeat a foresaken, defeat an army of trollocs). I feel like we just accept it because he's the dragon reborn and the main character, so we expect him to do something impressive. When Nyneave and Egwene along with 3 other women accomplish one small part of what he does in the book we decide it's unreasonable?

You probably don't remember the part where Tam inadvertently taught Rand how to channel. You don't see it in the show because it's not sexy or broody enough.

[Chivalry]

I watched about half of the first season of The Witcher, but I'm not familiar with the source material, and I didn't find the story compelling...which is a shame, since I really like Henry Cavill, and would love to see him in the WOT series (?why not Rhuarc).

 

[DaddyFinn]

12 minutes ago, Chivalry said:

I watched about half of the first season of The Witcher, but I'm not familiar with the source material, and I didn't find the story compelling...which is a shame, since I really like Henry Cavill, and would love to see him in the WOT series (?why not Rhuarc).

 

First season is a mess due to the few timelines that are not explained well

[Chivalry]

24 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

First season is a mess due to the few timelines that are not explained well

Yup, it was not well explained.

[WoTwasThat]

I would compare WOTTV to The Dark Tower movie. 

[Skipp]

4 hours ago, Chivalry said:

I watched about half of the first season of The Witcher, but I'm not familiar with the source material, and I didn't find the story compelling...which is a shame, since I really like Henry Cavill, and would love to see him in the WOT series (?why not Rhuarc).

 

 

My wife and I have both enjoyed Witcher seasons 1 and 2.  I adore Henry Cavill so that is certainly part of it but I am not super invested in it.  I did enjoy the learning about the conjunction of the spheres that is brought up a few times between the 2 seasons.

 

Great fan casting for Rhuarc there.

[Ralph]

6 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

But it's not Rand. It's Lews Therin.

There is no allusion to this in the book. 

 

6 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

Not first. 2nd or 3rd...

Didn't she bind her on the first, just she escaped? 

 

6 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

And I'd also add the false narrator aspect of the story to this; Yes, Ishamael just tied Moiraine in knots (pun intended), but beyond that, the Forsaken of legend are not materially more powerful than the most powerful channellers of this age.  More knowledgeable, better trained, longer lived, with all the experience that entails, but I never really got the impression that the Forsaken were the Fallen Angels / Balrog equivalent that people think of them as. The role as Forsaken was because of their willingness to do great evil, not because they were necessarily powerful.

It is regularly stated that they are far more powerful. True that Mog is the least of them, and therefore similar to N, who is more than any living AS, but that doesn't answer the point that she was relatively untrained. 

 

5 hours ago, Rahns said:

You probably don't remember the part where Tam inadvertently taught Rand how to channel. You don't see it in the show because it's not sexy or broody enough.

He trained him to find the void. That is all. That only shows him how to find the Power, not even how to hold it. He has had less training than Eg at this stage in the show or the book. 

And the reason it is not shown is obviously because it is too difficult to show - we would just be watching someone tell someone how to concentrate for a few minutes. 

 

 

Common denominator is that it is fine to rationalise the inconsistencies in the book, even based on knowledge from future books, or things that are never even mentioned in the books, because the books are the books. 

 

But the show... 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Ralph

[fra85uk]

In terms of adaptation, Witcher is more faithful in lore and worldbuilding, less on plot. 

In terms of show, for me there is no comparison: the Witcher while not being excellent is far superior to WoT in basically every aspect.

[notpropaganda73]

9 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

First season is a mess due to the few timelines that are not explained well

 

I found the first season incredibly hard to follow, but I thought they did a good job of bringing the main characters alive (for the most part). I just had no idea when or where I was at any point in any episode. I haven't gotten round to S1 as yet. 

[Gothic Flame]

5 hours ago, Ralph said:

Didn't she bind her on the first, just she escaped? 

It was in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Mogs used compulsion on her (and Egwene) first time and pissed her off and Birgitte stopped her from trying to get payback. 2nd time was more considerable, and Birgitte tried to interven again, but was turned into a child playing with a toy bow...until a distraction that got Moghedien an arrow in the chest...and Birgitte ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. (Elayne would bond her as a warder, with Nynaeve moping with the guilts) 3rd time was when Rand was dealing with Rahvin. Nynaeve created an a'dam and collared her. And Moghedien said the wrong thing betraying where she was (Salidar) and a dose of forkroot and boom. One pissed off Moghedien for the rest of the series.

[Ralph]

46 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

It was in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Mogs used compulsion on her (and Egwene) first time and pissed her off and Birgitte stopped her from trying to get payback. 2nd time was more considerable, and Birgitte tried to interven again, but was turned into a child playing with a toy bow...until a distraction that got Moghedien an arrow in the chest...and Birgitte ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. (Elayne would bond her as a warder, with Nynaeve moping with the guilts) 3rd time was when Rand was dealing with Rahvin. Nynaeve created an a'dam and collared her. And Moghedien said the wrong thing betraying where she was (Salidar) and a dose of forkroot and boom. One pissed off Moghedien for the rest of the series.

Compulsion first yes when they didn't know who it was. But when was the time in Tanchico when N bound her in air and went to fetch people and Mog escaped? 

[Gothic Flame]

21 minutes ago, Ralph said:

Compulsion first yes when they didn't know who it was. But when was the time in Tanchico when N bound her in air and went to fetch people and Mog escaped? 

I don't recall this ever happened. And the closest Nynaeve and Moghedien were in Tanchico at the same time was in Tel'aran'rhiod. I don't remember offhand that they were physically present. Moghedien was in tanchico when she got Birgitte's arrow in the chest in Tel'aran'rhiod which yanked her back to her physical self which was in Tanchico. Liandrin tried double crossing Moghedien while Chesmal was healing her, which got her pinned to the wall by Air.

[Ralph]

1 hour ago, Gothic Flame said:

I don't recall this ever happened. And the closest Nynaeve and Moghedien were in Tanchico at the same time was in Tel'aran'rhiod. I don't remember offhand that they were physically present. Moghedien was in tanchico when she got Birgitte's arrow in the chest in Tel'aran'rhiod which yanked her back to her physical self which was in Tanchico. Liandrin tried double crossing Moghedien while Chesmal was healing her, which got her pinned to the wall by Air.

TSR ch 54

 

The Forsaken had only begun to gape when the wide black circlet struck her between the eyes. Not a hard blow, certainly not enough to stun, but not expected, either. Moghedien’s control over her woven flows faltered, just slightly, only for an instant. Yet for that instant the balance between them shifted. The shield of Spirit slid between Moghedien and the Source; the halo surrounding her winked out.

 

  The woman’s eyes bulged. Nynaeve expected her to leap for her throat; that was what she would have done. Instead, Moghedien jerked her skirts to her knees and ran.

 

  With no need to defend herself, it took only a little effort for Nynaeve to weave Air around the fleeing woman. The Forsaken froze in midstride.

 

  Hurriedly Nynaeve tied her weaving. She had done it. I faced one of the Forsaken and beat her, she thought incredulously. Looking at the woman held from the neck down by air with the consistency of stone, even seeing her leaning forward on one foot, it was hard to believe. Examining what she had done, she saw it had not been as complete a victory as she had wanted. The shield had blurred its sharp edge before it slid home. Moghedien was captured and shielded, but not stilled.

 

  Trying not to totter, she walked around in front of the other woman. Moghedien still looked queenly, but like a very frightened queen, licking her lips, eyes darting wildly. “If … if you f-free me, we can c-come to s-some arrangement. There is m-much I can t-teach you—”

 

  Ruthlessly Nynaeve cut her off, weaving a gag of Air that held the woman’s jaws gaping. “A live mounting block. Wasn’t that what you said? I think that is a very good idea. I like to ride.” She smiled at the woman, whose eyes looked to be coming out of  her head.

 

[Gothic Flame]

58 minutes ago, Ralph said:

TSR ch 54

Ah yes! 

I stand corrected!

[Jaysen Gore]

I think you're both forgetting Moggy's first encounter with the girls in Tanchico - where she comes in wearing a disguise, compulses them to answer questions, and then wipes their memories of the discussion. It wasn't a fight, per se, but it was their first encounter.