Changes to Perrin

[JenniferL]

This conversation seems to be in multiple threads. Let’s put it here so it’s easier to find. 
 

Anyways, I’m not a fan of killing women just to give someone more manpain. 

[Elgee]

Of all the changes, this is one of those that bothers me least. I say that provisionally, though - no idea where they're heading with it.

[DojoToad]

The only thing I liked about the fridging of Laila was that it gave Perrin a reason/motivation to leave town - trying to separate himself from the guilt of killing his wife.  But I thought it was a cheap short cut.  Moiraine was already pulling Mat, Egwene, and Rand in her wake just because she said so - Perrin could just as easily been included here.

[mogi68]

Can only go up from there, right? Perrin will struggle with using a weapon now, and there will come a time when he has no choice. Will he get his axe?

 

 

[Daenelia]

It's hard to say how this will affect the rest of Perrin's character. Although it obviously has been set up in a way to give him the reasons to become who he is in the books, in a shortcut, which was needed, because there is not enough time to go through every detail in the books.

 

I don't see anything really wrong with what they did so far. But to base all of it on 3 episodes to determine how much they changed Perrin, that is not fair to the book Perrin, who had 14 books to grow.

[Cre8engr]

Brandon Sanderson (I can't remember where) said that Layla was a shortcut.  It's also something that he is not happy with.  Sanderson recognizes a need for a shortcut, because of the difficulty of transposing character thoughts to television and that television is condensed, but Sanderson's recommendation was to use Master Luhan instead.  Amazon's argument for Perrin killing Layla instead of Master Luhan was that Master Luhan will require precious screentime to develop and establish his relationship with Perrin to the general viewer not experienced with the books.  Killing the wife makes it more impactful and easier for the those who haven't read the books to later understand Perrin's struggle between the axe and the hammer.

[AshennaSedai]

29 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

I don't see anything really wrong with what they did so far. But to base all of it on 3 episodes to determine how much they changed Perrin, that is not fair to the book Perrin, who had 14 books to grow.

 

The only thing that is really "wrong" with it is that it is a tired trope. A woman close to Perrin was killed to spur him on his emotional journey.

 

Quote

'Fridging' is the practice of killing off or hurting a minor character in order to motivate or torture a main character.

 

And many times, fridging is something done to women. If they wanted to explain Perrin's brooding personality, or even his careful thoughtfulness and how he likes to think about things before jumping in. The attack on Emond's Field would have been traumatic enough IMO. There was no need to add in Leila and even if prevailing theories are true, it doesn't do much to strengthen the choice.

[DaddyFinn]

I didn't even know this was a trope until fans started talking about it. I don't mind. The scene itself was well directed and quite realistic. I think we haven't seen all of Laila yet and this will get more nuanced. Perrin spends so much time inside his head something had to be done. Maybe it would have been better if he killed Haral Luhhan or someone else as Sanderson had suggested but too late now.

 

Tl;dr I want to see how they will make this work in the long run.

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, Cre8engr said:

Brandon Sanderson (I can't remember where) said that Layla was a shortcut.  It's also something that he is not happy with.  Sanderson recognizes a need for a shortcut, because of the difficulty of transposing character thoughts to television and that television is condensed, but Sanderson's recommendation was to use Master Luhan instead.  Amazon's argument for Perrin killing Layla instead of Master Luhan was that Master Luhan will require precious screentime to develop and establish his relationship with Perrin to the general viewer not experienced with the books.  Killing the wife makes it more impactful and easier for the those who haven't read the books to later understand Perrin's struggle between the axe and the hammer.

I understand it, but I don't have to like it. ?

[Windigo]

6 minutes ago, Cre8engr said:

Brandon Sanderson (I can't remember where) said that Layla was a shortcut.  It's also something that he is not happy with.  Sanderson recognizes a need for a shortcut, because of the difficulty of transposing character thoughts to television and that television is condensed, but Sanderson's recommendation was to use Master Luhan instead.  Amazon's argument for Perrin killing Layla instead of Master Luhan was that Master Luhan will require precious screentime to develop and establish his relationship with Perrin to the general viewer not experienced with the books.  Killing the wife makes it more impactful and easier for the those who haven't read the books to later understand Perrin's struggle between the axe and the hammer.

It also will explain his later issues and reluctance with Faile and other women. It was a shortcut no doubt, and though fridging in general is a lousy plot device, the difference here from what I see of it being a motivator for his depth, fear of losing control and struggles is a little different than the standard fridge the girl then I have a reason for revenge. 

[Daenelia]

So it would have been fine if Perrin had accidentily stored his axe in someone else, who was not female?

 

I don't think this was a case of fridging. Perrin apparently loved her, she was not a prop or afterthought. But hey, it would have been a great change if Perrin had been bisexual and he had killed his male lover.

[DojoToad]

5 minutes ago, Windigo said:

It also will explain his later issues and reluctance with Faile and other women. It was a shortcut no doubt, and though fridging in general is a lousy plot device, the difference here from what I see of it being a motivator for his depth, fear of losing control and struggles is a little different than the standard fridge the girl then I have a reason for revenge. 

I wouldn't say he lost control during the fight - sure it was friendly fire (as far as he knew), but they were in an extremely chaotic situation and he made a mistake.

 

Yes - he was going crazy on the trolloc's face with the axe, but he had never been in a fight and had never seen a trolloc before and knows that they are stronger than him - he was making sure it was dead.

[Agitel]

Again, another issue I'm a bit split on. I don't think the death of a loved one is an intrinsically bad trope. But I also know the death of a woman to move a man's plot is... over represented, to put it politely. But I also know the WOT is not just a man's story, or a story about a group of men, but also includes many strong, non-token women characters in powerful roles.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Agitel

[AshennaSedai]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

I didn't even know this was a trope until fans started talking about it. I don't mind. The scene itself was well directed and quite realistic. I think we haven't seen all of Laila yet and this will get more nuanced. Perrin spends so much time inside his head something had to be done. Maybe it would have been better if he killed Haral Luhhan or someone else as Sanderson had suggested but too late now.

 

Tl;dr I want to see how they will make this work in the long run.

 

And that's absolutely fair. For me, it wasn't a dealbreaker on the entire series it just didn't sit well for me and is something that absolutely can and should be discussed. Outside of that, I am genuinely enjoying the series thus far.

 

51 minutes ago, Agitel said:

Again, another issue I'm a bit split on. I don't think the death of a loved one is an intrinsically bad trope. But I also know the death of a woman to move a man's plot is... over represented, to put it politely. But I also know the WOT is not just a man's story, or a story about a group of men, but also includes many strong, non-token women characters in powerful roles.

 

Absolutely correct and I agree. There really isn't that much wrong with it outside of it's overdone but also with the tilt towards women being the victims that does shed a whole light on another side of it. If we had more parity between all genders, I'm not sure it would be anywhere near as widely critiqued as it is. It probably would be critiqued but I think the conversations about it would be very different.

[AshennaSedai]

1 hour ago, Daenelia said:

So it would have been fine if Perrin had accidentily stored his axe in someone else, who was not female?

 

I don't think this was a case of fridging. Perrin apparently loved her, she was not a prop or afterthought. But hey, it would have been a great change if Perrin had been bisexual and he had killed his male lover.

 

Independent of whether or not it was a woman, it still very much is fridging. The fact that it was a woman adds another layer of problems to it is all.

[DaddyFinn]

I'm just sad it had to be Laila because she was bloody great in the fight scene and I would have loved to see more of her in the future.

Edited November 23, 2021 by DaddyFinn

[AshennaSedai]

8 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I'm just sad it had to be Laila because she was bloody great in the fight scene and I would have loved to see more of her in the future.

 

I can agree with that and personally, if they really wanted to go the Darkfriend route, she could have easily betrayed Perrin and somehow survived being a mysterious figure lurking out there as a threat to him. 

 

EDIT: And who knows? She may have actually survived but we don't know that. I would much rather *know* she had survived and lurking.

Edited November 23, 2021 by AshennaSedai

[DojoToad]

13 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

I'm just sad it had to be Laila because she was bloody great in the fight scene and I would have loved to see more of her in the future.

As a replacement for Faile?

[DaddyFinn]

6 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

As a replacement for Faile?

No. As her own with the rest of Two Rivers. If the writers could have somehow divorced Perrin and her and made it seem plausible. I don't care about Faile but removing her would be too big of a change.

[MasterAblar]

I’m thinking of the bubble of evil in the Shadow Rising where Perrin fights with his axe and it nearly ends in Faile’s face… Gonna traumatize him all over again.

[Theseus78]

3 hours ago, Cre8engr said:

Brandon Sanderson (I can't remember where) said that Layla was a shortcut.  

Which is why I'm okay with it.  I know that the original character had issues for reasons that are hard to impossible to show on screen, so they went with a shortcut.  

Part of me wonders if this is less bad as far as tropes go than just a 'in the Two Rivers we protect our women" trope from the books. 

[AshennaSedai]

1 minute ago, Theseus78 said:

Part of me wonders if this is less bad as far as tropes go than just a 'in the Two Rivers we protect our women" trope from the books. 

 

I don't think one is less bad than the other if we're looking at the potential sexism that either can portray.

 

I need to think on this a little bit but that's my first reaction.

[Elgee]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

I don't care about Faile but removing her would be too big of a change.

 

Oh darling child of May ?

[DaddyFinn]

25 minutes ago, Elgee said:

 

Oh darling child of May ?

Care to elaborate? ?

[Elgee]

You're being very innocent and naive (and I mean that in a loving way ?) if you think they'll balk at changing ANYthing, when they've changed so much already ?