Feminism changes

[TheMountain]

Well, for one, running around town waving a bared sword around the air in front of you like a madman/madwoman, you're more likely to trip and fall on your own sword than hurt anyone else. She doesn't exactly come across as a terrifying swordmaster in that scene just because of the ridiculousness of that alone.

 

I mean, if you don't see that scene as ridiculous/comical, you don't see it. I'm sure I'm not the only one though.

[chri5]

52 minutes ago, TheMountain said:

Well, for one, running around town waving a bared sword around the air in front of you like a madman/madwoman, you're more likely to trip and fall on your own sword than hurt anyone else. She doesn't exactly come across as a terrifying swordmaster in that scene just because of the ridiculousness of that alone.

 

I mean, if you don't see that scene as ridiculous/comical, you don't see it. I'm sure I'm not the only one though.

It was just the running that made the scene meh. Had Rand just broke the door, and the confrontation took place right outside the stable it would have been great. 

 

in the overall feminism point and some changes to things…

 

To me this all goes back to a difference in understanding how the One Power works. I don’t think these Aes Sedai believe in separate halves of the OP. I think they believe in One Source, and that the differences in it are caused by who uses it. 
 

Maybe their philosophers from the Age of Legends outlined a different view in the nature of the OP, which in turned changed their overall assumptions and worldview on a fundamental level. 
 

This version of reality is interesting. I wonder what it’s portal stone symbol looks like?

 

I think a male redemption arc is being set up writ large. Hopefully embodied by an amazing depiction of the Asha’man at Dumai Wells. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by chri5
Autocorrect spelled Rand as sand.

[Jaysen Gore]

The other thing I would throw out here for everyone to remember here, is that for all the talk of feminism and women's rights and powers, sometime about 10 episodes from now, Egwene is

 

Spoiler

going to get leashed like a dog. Along with a lot of other "dogs".

 

It will be an even bigger punch in the gut

Edited November 21, 2021 by Jaysen Gore

[DaddyFinn]

12 minutes ago, chri5 said:

I don’t think these Aes Sedai believe in separate halves of the OP. I think they believe in One Source, and that the differences in it are caused by who uses it. 

And what makes you think so? Saidin and saidar exist in the show. They just have not been mentioned yet.

[Els]

BOOK SPOILERS AHEAD (just in case)

Spoiler

My take from reading the books was that Bran was more active with his role of the mayor (and Village Council) together while Marin was more actively running the inn. Key point - Bran as mayor first and innkeeper second. When something comes up with the town he runs off to handle it or to gather with the Village Council to deliberate. From the books, Marin offers the boys (Mat and Rand) food from the kitchen of the inn and bustles into the common room with a tray of bread and the characters refer to going to her for food/drink from the inn--sounds like she's responsible for innkeeper duties and sees to it throughout the day while Bran helps but will nip off for mayor duties if need be. In fact, Bran is sitting in the inn common room chatting with Tam and Cenn while Marin is running the inn. Makes a lot of sense having Marin, whose main responsibility is running the inn, show Moiraine and Lan to their rooms when they arrive. Given limited screen time, do we need to know who is the mayor of the town? No, it has no impact to the plot or storyline. The Village Council doesn't add anything to the plot or storyline either while the Women's Circle does introduce Nynaeve and Egwene to the show while adding character depth (i.e. introducing Nynaeve as village wisdom, the [minor] significance of the braid, Egwene's tranquility in the river which ties back in a future episode..). 

 

Also yes, the group of women taking out the trollic was pretty cheesy but really, none of the village men stuck out as fierce characters in the first book other than Tam. My impression from the book was that the village men seemed to bend at the will of their wives. A few examples of the strong female presence: 

1. In the first chapter a village man complains about Nynaeve being too young to be a village wisdom and is put in his place by his wife, Daise Congar. 

2. In the books Master Luhhan is strong and brave but pales at the sight of butchering being done. His wife has a hot temper and is just as brave as Master Luhhan. She fights off a trollic with a frying pan and wanders off into the village with the biggest hammer in case any were hiding to seek revenge for destroying her home.

The village women stuck out to me as more fierce no nonsense types but the men shone later on when they were defending the two rivers from trollics several books farther along. But really - why are we nitpicking at this light cheesy scene? 

 

The tinkers scene was less than 3 minutes so it seems very quick to judge as "feminist" changes. Note that Aram, a male (since the distinction between male/female character script lines makes a difference..), had the most interaction in the scene with Egwene/Perrin. Keep in mind Raen's initial interaction in the books was with Elyas (who may be cut from the show) who knew the ticker campsite was nearby, led them into campsite, and had previously met Raen. This was a change from the books so saying it was pushing a feminist agenda by having Ila speak a few extra sentences seems like a stretch. The tinkers will show up again during the season so perhaps Raen will have more screen time than Ila in the next episode. I don't like the Elyas change but I don't know what will happen down the road - 3 episodes is too early to judge.

 

As for Dana .. well I'm glad someone pointed this out because I could not remember reading this from the books. Good to know I didn't just forget a whole chunk of it. I can see why they casted this as a female so you could show Mat trying to charm his way with her to get out of doing any work plus some good character dialogue to build on Mat's character. I think this plays well with Rand letting his guard down with Dana (i.e. his 'weakness' with females..not the right word but hopefully you get what I mean) and opening up so he ends up getting trapped in the room. Also, notice how he doesn't try to attack her and overpower her once she takes his sword? Instead focuses on trying to break out of the room, which he does using the [presumed] one power *hint to audience*. If this part was casted as a male, would he have had the sweet heart-to-heart and let his guard down and get locked into the room? Would he have tried harder to defend himself and hurt the other if it was a male? Dunno... Do I like this change? Heck yeah, adds character development with the interactions. 

 

Watched a few interviews and some members of the cast are excited for us to see episode 6 and 7 - I'd be more interested in what else we have coming up. These small changes either don't impact the plot OR provides underlying reasoning/depth to the characters and the plot moving forward so I am for it. 

[Maximillion]

2 hours ago, ManBearPig said:

The opening monologue clearly shows its feminist objectives. Men with their arrogance broke the world. That was the exact moment I knew this show was going to be trash. Mark my words. This will continue to be a male bashing show of epic proportions. This has the same feel and tone as the atrocity known as Batwoman tv show on CW. This WoT show is dead on arrival and we all know why. 

 

I think most people knew going in that it would be a show that would highlight the strength of women.  There's nothing wrong with that in my view.  WoT is probably one of the best vehicles to make a show like that. 

However, it needs to be done in a way that is real and not completely ridiculous - like women physically over powering men and such.

In my view, so far the show is not too bad in this respect.  Nynaeve being ninja assassin, Wonder Woman, Xena rolled into one is utterly stupid as was the Terminator Barmaid but other than that I am not sure it's gone off the rails yet.  

 

[DaddyFinn]

15 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

like women physically over powering men and such.

This can be totally realistic..

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

This can be totally realistic..

 

Rare.  Men are physically stronger than women, by a lot. 

Take two distributions of mens and womens strength and the overlap of weakest men and strongest women would be quite small.

It's just the way it is.

You don't need to alter reality to show the empowerment of women.

It can be done in more meaningful and realistic ways.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2021 by Maximillion

[DojoToad]

7 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Check that thread about the amount of producers. 17 is nothing spectacular..

Correct, and that’s what makes the situation so ridiculous. The industry is so saturated with the word producer that they need to come up with another term - showrunner - to clarify who is really in charge. 

[DojoToad]

39 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

This can be totally realistic..

In very limited situations.  That’s why women and men compete separately in sports - or at least used to…

[Chwooly]

3 hours ago, ManBearPig said:

The opening monologue clearly shows its feminist objectives. Men with their arrogance broke the world. That was the exact moment I knew this show was going to be trash. Mark my words. This will continue to be a male bashing show of epic proportions. This has the same feel and tone as the atrocity known as Batwoman tv show on CW. This WoT show is dead on arrival and we all know why. 

Have you actually read the books? It is obvious that Rafe didn't as there is no need to make anything feminist, Starting with how the Womens Circle is portrayed in the books to Elayne telling Rand the Lion Throne is not his to give to how Aiel Wise ones decide who can go to Rhuidean to become chief, even down to Rand after becoming Car-a-Carn getting his ass handed to him by the Maidens. WOT has always had a very heavy women in charge vibe. Why become offended by small changes that don't really effect story

[DojoToad]

56 minutes ago, Chwooly said:

Have you actually read the books? It is obvious that Rafe didn't as there is no need to make anything feminist, Starting with how the Womens Circle is portrayed in the books to Elayne telling Rand the Lion Throne is not his to give to how Aiel Wise ones decide who can go to Rhuidean to become chief, even down to Rand after becoming Car-a-Carn getting his ass handed to him by the Maidens. WOT has always had a very heavy women in charge vibe. Why become offended by small changes that don't really effect story

Why make changes if they don’t affect the story?

 

All your examples show that Jordan’s world already had women large and in charge, and I loved how this was portrayed in the books. But in Judkin’s world the men must be pathetic. 

Edited November 21, 2021 by DojoToad

[Guire]

I have been trying to not be hyper negative on the show but this issue to me is one of the core problems. We are not getting feminism we are getting performanitive Hollywood feminism.  In the language of US current politics we are getting pussy hats not universal child care.

 

I think it comes down to writers and possibly Rafe not understanding what this story is about. LoTR, WoT, and GoT are all march to war stories.  LoTR and WoT are heroes tells. GoT is a conqueror's tale.  WoT and LoTR we're both written by soldiers.  WoT is an epic March to war.  It has big themes and deals with major conundrums that we face as humans.  

 

Centering women in the context of war is great. Women have a major role in war stories.  Especially in a world with this history.  But right now the show is doing a bad job of setting the table for what is next. Instead of showing us why these women are powerful and amazing they are diminishing the men's roles because of bad plot decisions.  

 

Time is the rarest resource in this story.  Every screen second is a second that steals from something else.   Right now if Egwene does not become Dragon they have pissed all down their leg with time management. 

 

Who is Moraine.  She is James Bond.  She is  smart, she uses resources wisely, she collects information, she minimizes mistakes, she is low key saving the world while drinking a freaking dry martini. So in WoTtv this far we get her playing Green Ajah, being wounded by random dagger she should have seen in heightened channeling state, needless kowtowing to Whitecloaks, then nearly unconscious Moraine for a giant chunk of screen time.  Most of this was in service of unnecessary plot changes or the illusion of the Dragon mystery. 

 

Who is Egwene.  A hyper competent, ambitious, capable leader that sees through the crap and pushes those around her to what she perceives as the best solution.  We get glimpses of this but they could be doing so much better.  Women's March to cliff was beautiful but performative.  It ate time that could have been better used.  Nyn's speech sounded good but ate time better used. Also a nod to economic injustice that wasn't needed and wasted a better Nyn backstory.  We literally got a semi black women barefoot scrubbing the floor while a perceived white rich woman toyed with her.  So instead of showing Nyn heal someone( she already knows she is channeling) we get a "fight the power moment". the scene does serve some characterization for Mwo and Nyn but not enough to justify changing Nyn's backstory or Tower treatment of channelers.

 

Have Fain come to town announcing war and False Dragons.  Have men's council arguing implications and Cenn being disruptive.  Have shot of women's circle meeting with Nyn and Marin leading a thoughtful discussion using some type of small talisman that denotes who gets to speak.  Have Egwene watching and listening intently. When she holds the speaker's talisman she makes an important observation while Marin and Nyn give each other the look of " the future is well protected.".  Then have Marin and Nyn meet Bran and Tam where they give solid real world direction on what needs to be done.  Have Tam and Bran being involved but also genuinely listening and enacting women's input.  Steal a few minutes from battle scene and bad Taren Ferry scene you could build that Woman have local power and full agency and Eg is going to be important.  Instead we get Bran mumbling about Eg needing to get back to work and women shooing him away because we are getting our drink on.  It's a lazy reversal of men watching the game while women fetch the snacks.  Wasted time to signal.  

 

I am starting to write a book so going to close this down. I have tons on other missed chances but season is finished and it's whistling past the graveyard.  The show is fine.  But it's not special. And it could have been special and still might be.  For now though it's not.  They chose to give us beautiful scenery and superficial nods to female empowerment that diminish the men's story without making women's better.  It's all frosting with not enough cake.  At this point GoT's did a better job of creating interesting, powerful women and they literally had a T and A executive.  

 

 

 

 

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, Maximillion said:

Rare.  Men are physically stronger than women, by a lot. 

Take two distributions of mens and womens strength and the overlap of weakest men and strongest women would be quite small.

It's just the way it is.

You don't need to alter reality to show the empowerment of women.

It can be done in more meaningful and realistic ways.

I agree.

I'm not fond of the word "feminism." It's become such a loaded term and seems to have different variations depending on circumstances and the person using the word.

The books recognize gender. Moiraine once said to Siuan that Egwene and Nynaeve "there is no chance these two will choose the Red. They are amused by men, exasperated by them, but they do like them."

And that sets the tone where things tend to discriminate. It's more friendlier and annoying at times.

But not so much as what some would call "feminism." It's just "gender recognizance" to me.

[Daenelia]

I enjoy the discussion but am confused because you seem to be talking about something other than feminism.

 

Feminism is the idea that men and women are to be treated equal, but the main argument here seems to be the show is 'feminist' because the balance seems to be in favour of the female characters. In the strictest sense that is not feminism.

 

I also think that giving secondary or background characters (who are male) less prominince to focus on the some of the main characters who happen to be female has little to do with a feminist perspective.

 

Look I get it: some of the people watching who happen to be used to seein g'powerful' male characters are somewhat flustered at suddenly seeing some actual women on screen. Enjoy it!

 

Dont be like my granddad... he refused to step on the last bus home at night because there was a woman bus driver. We progressed ?

Edited November 21, 2021 by Daenelia
I do make typos a lot.

[Maximillion]

13 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

I enjoy the discussion but am confused because you seem to be talking about something other than feminism.

 

Feminism is the idea that men and women are to be treated equal, but the main argument here seems to be the show is 'feminist' because the balance seems to be in favour of the female characters. In the strictest sense that is not feminism.

 

I also think that giving secondary or background characters (who are male) less prominince to focus on the some of the main characters who happen to be female has little to do with a feminist perspective.

 

Look I get it: some of the people watching who happen to be used to seein g'powerful' male characters are somewhat flustered at suddenly seeing some actual women on screen. Enjoy it!

 

Dont be like my granddad... he refused to step on the last bus home at night because there was a woman bus driver. We progressed ?

 

 

First half of your post is spot on.  Couldn't agree more.  I know of few who have a problem with that.

Unfortunately 'feminism' like any other movement has its extreme elements that push for superiority, not equality. 

 

The latter part of your post is not on point.  It's not about being used to seeing powerful men or not liking seeing powerful women.  The issue is taken when either gender is diminished to make a social or political point.  Not saying that is what WoT is doing - I don't think it is too bad in that respect, but in general the 'feminism' which has become, yes, toxic is where men are diminished or made to look weak or bad as a generalisation.

The antidote to women playing inferior or passive roles in media is not to reverse the roles.  It is to remove inequality and recognise both the similarities and different strengths of men and women.

 

 

[Guire]

9 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

I enjoy the discussion but am confused because you seem to be talking about something other than feminism.

 

Feminism is the idea that men and women are to be treated equal, but the main argument here seems to be the show is 'feminist' because the balance seems to be in favour of the female characters. In the strictest sense that is not feminism.

 

I also think that giving secondary or background characters (who are male) less prominince to focus on the some of the main characters who happen to be female has little to do with a feminist perspective.

 

Look I get it: some of the people watching who happen to be used to seein g'powerful' male characters are somewhat flustered at suddenly seeing some actual women on screen. Enjoy it!

 

Dont be like my granddad... he refused to step on the last bus home at night because there was a woman bus driver. We progressed ?

In my life I have been surrounded by wonderful strong women.  I was in a medical military unit for a long time.  It was roughly a 60/40 split men to women.  I have had more female commanders and female civilian bosses than men.  My oldest daughter runs 50 mile desert races and has  worked 60 hour weeks in a covid ICU for last 18 months.  Power is not in the strength of your arm.  WoT has pretty gritty real politics and examinations of power good and bad.  They appear to have cut Tams abilities and story because it is to much a giveaway for Rand.  Elyas is cut diminishing wolfbrother storyline.  Changing women's reinforcement of men in Edmonds field battle into drunken girl power show reduced it's emotional power and added very little to story.  Changing beautiful introduction of Tinkers with Elyas performing ceremony to a weird culty feeling "ok boomer" explanation by Aram.  This is not empowering females bad.  Its that  bad writing/ plot changes while hiding behind media adaption and female empowerment is ruining a great opportunity.

[DojoToad]

23 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

I enjoy the discussion but am confused because you seem to be talking about something other than feminism.

 

Feminism is the idea that men and women are to be treated equal, but the main argument here seems to be the show is 'feminist' because the balance seems to be in favour of the female characters. In the strictest sense that is not feminism.

 

I also think that giving secondary or background characters (who are male) less prominince to focus on the some of the main characters who happen to be female has little to do with a feminist perspective.

 

Look I get it: some of the people watching who happen to be used to seein g'powerful' male characters are somewhat flustered at suddenly seeing some actual women on screen. Enjoy it!

 

Dont be like my granddad... he refused to step on the last bus home at night because there was a woman bus driver. We progressed ?

Don't make it out to be a sexist complaint.  It isn't - the complaint is about unnecessary changes.  I imagine there are many definitions of feminism.  The reason for the thread title is because Rafe labeled himself as a feminist.

 

Once again, in the books, the women have the lion's share of the power: Aes Sedai, Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk, queens, current and next empress of Seanchan...  And I think it was portrayed well - I've read the entire series in full twice and the first 6 books at least half a dozen times with no complaints or 'this is weird' moments.  So why do men have diminished roles in the show?  Keep the balance the same as the books and women are still calling most of the shots.  All good.

[Daenelia]

10 minutes ago, Maximillion said:

 

 

First half of your post is spot on.  Couldn't agree more.  I know of few who have a problem with that.

Unfortunately 'feminism' like any other movement has its extreme elements that push for superiority, not equality. 

 

[...]

Extremism in a movement does not determin the actual definition of the term feminism.

[Daenelia]

2 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

Don't make it out to be a sexist complaint.  It isn't - the complaint is about unnecessary changes.  I imagine there are many definitions of feminism.  The reason for the thread title is because Rafe labeled himself as a feminist.

 

Once again, in the books, the women have the lion's share of the power: Aes Sedai, Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk, queens, current and next empress of Seanchan...  And I think it was portrayed well - I've read the entire series in full twice and the first 6 books at least half a dozen times with no complaints or 'this is weird' moments.  So why do men have diminished roles in the show?  Keep the balance the same as the books and women are still calling most of the shots.  All good.

 

And I don't see it that way. I think there has to be some reason why you see an overpowering and overwhelming shift to women's perspective and I do not. I would really like to find out why. Don't you? You obviously stated your wife shares your vision on this as well, so why do I not see it?

 

I'll follow the discussion some more and hope that will lead me to the answer.

[Daenelia]

7 minutes ago, Guire said:

In my life I have been surrounded by wonderful strong women.  I was in a medical military unit for a long time.  It was roughly a 60/40 split men to women.  I have had more female commanders and female civilian bosses than men.  My oldest daughter runs 50 mile desert races and has  worked 60 hour weeks in a covid ICU for last 18 months.  Power is not in the strength of your arm.  WoT has pretty gritty real politics and examinations of power good and bad.  They appear to have cut Tams abilities and story because it is to much a giveaway for Rand.  Elyas is cut diminishing wolfbrother storyline.  Changing women's reinforcement of men in Edmonds field battle into drunken girl power show reduced it's emotional power and added very little to story.  Changing beautiful introduction of Tinkers with Elyas performing ceremony to a weird culty feeling "ok boomer" explanation by Aram.  This is not empowering females bad.  Its that  bad writing/ plot changes while hiding behind media adaption and female empowerment is ruining a great opportunity.

Awesome! And I really am impressed by your daughter. 18 months working on a covid icu is much much harder than anything I have ever done.

 

But I think the changes were made to make the story flow better and to set up things in the future. I also think that a lot of things were cut because an audience will be alienated by too much information and too many characters.

 

Maybe I should hunt down all the female secondary characters that were cut or diminished? Then we can count and compare?

[Maximillion]

5 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

Extremism in a movement does not determin the actual definition of the term feminism.

 

 

I agree.

I have no problem with feminism.  The movement is a struggle for equality.

I have given you my view that the issue taken with 'feminism' is on the extremist edge of it, which, whilst does not define feminism, is sadly a part of it.  The part that is toxic.

[Guire]

I didn't want women not being forwarded.  I wanted better choices to enrich their stories.  We spent 3 minutes with Aria in GoT as a kid and loved her.  With Nyneave they make her get kidnapped, super easy escape, Rambo scene, then blade to Lan's throat.  I want to see angry Nyneave because she can't heal all that is broken.  The trauma Rambo routine from 120 lb wisdom is time wasted.  The actress is good.  Her and Lan's mini fight dialogue was good.  Make me love her as a wonderful unique character don't waste time on girl power fantasy.  Or at least make it good.  Show her sneaking out of horrifying trolloc camp.  Make her run from them and struggle to get across river then tail trolloc armies chasing EF4. Nope got this expensive set need badass woman scene.  Nyn you are up.

 

[DojoToad]

24 minutes ago, Daenelia said:

 

And I don't see it that way. I think there has to be some reason why you see an overpowering and overwhelming shift to women's perspective and I do not. I would really like to find out why. Don't you? You obviously stated your wife shares your vision on this as well, so why do I not see it?

 

I'll follow the discussion some more and hope that will lead me to the answer.

I've stated many times in this thread and others that every change from books to screen has been a woman swapped in for a man - you don't see that pattern?

[TheDreadReader]

4 minutes ago, DojoToad said:

I've stated many times in this thread and others that every change from books to screen has been a woman swapped in for a man - you don't see that pattern?

 

There may be a pattern but there are other structural and storytelling reasons for that pattern to exist besides a perceived "feminism".    

 

You can certainly can make the case based on the semi-objective measurements of screen time of female characters or spoken word counts but that has balanced out across all three episodes because of point-of-view and focus shifts in the narrative.  

 

This is part of the issue.  Rafe has said many things about how he is adapting the series.  Does that mean that one statement about feminism govern all the changes or are there other explanations?   For example, Rand has the majority of povs in the first book.  Rafe has talked about expanding or balancing out early povs.  Is including a woman's circle initiation scene (that helps illustrate some concepts related to the one power) the result of him adding or changing povs or is it a result of his "feminism"?  

 

Structurally, I see it as being more of the former than the later. 

 

To be honest, if Rafe wanted to assert big "F" feminist ideas, he would have included more of the village council.   It would be trivially easy to present their decisions as being feckless, out of touch, prone to excess nattering on, etc but he chose not to.  Instead, he added a few scenes from a different point of view that help set worldbuilding information from a different point of view than you get in the books.

 

Some of those shifts in point of view are also deriving from the whole hiding-who-the-dragon-is which I think has clearly been a mistake on their part in my view.  At the moment, the biggest thing that approach has accomplished is to create drama in the book fandom for very little gain.