Perrin and Laila

[fra85uk]

It was just a poorly written cheap and overused Hollywood trope but we were told that it would aid and speed up Perrin development...which did not happen. No struggle between wolf and man, no Elyas (because in this show you CANNOT Have even a glimpse of a male mentor) to counter the Tuathan thinking, no killing the Whitecloacks, almost no interaction with wolves (well more Dogs than wolves in the show anyway). 

 Hey but in the end he picked up an axe!

 

[Scarloc99]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:46 PM, fra85uk said:

It was just a poorly written cheap and overused Hollywood trope but we were told that it would aid and speed up Perrin development...which did not happen. No struggle between wolf and man, no Elyas (because in this show you CANNOT Have even a glimpse of a male mentor) to counter the Tuathan thinking, no killing the Whitecloacks, almost no interaction with wolves (well more Dogs than wolves in the show anyway). 

 Hey but in the end he picked up an axe!

 

Elyas is in season 2, which makes sense, 

[Mailman]

On 12/31/2021 at 6:15 AM, Sir_Charrid said:

It doesn't need to be expanded on, episode 8 he looks at an Axe, decides not to pick it up and as a result Loial is stabbed. The Layla axe swing was to fast track his book story arc and it worked well 

Perrin is a zero for character development in season 1.

 

Kills his wife, mopes around for 8 episodes then watches Loial get stabbed.

Contributes nothing  to the season except a embarrassing love triangle with Rand and Egwene

 

A fan theory I heard (not sure where) is that Perrin is not in fact in love with Egwene but with Rand, the way the series has gone it would not surprise me if true. It really feels like a choice the production would think is clever.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Mailman

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, Mailman said:

Perrin is a zero for character development in season 1.

 

Kills his wife, mopes around for 8 episodes then watches Loial get stabbed.

Contributes nothing  to the season except a embarrassing love triangle with Rand and Egwene

 

A fan theory I heard (not sure where) is that Perrin is not in fact in love with Egwene but with Rand, the way the series has gone it would not surprise me if true. It really feels like a choice the production would think is clever.

A personal opinion, my wife (never read the books) talked to me about perrin and nailed pretty well by the end of season one where he was emotionally as a character. Hate to himself for the aggressive streak he has and the way it made him kill his wife, hence not picking up the axe, unsure as to what his link to the wolves is and what it means, unsure about the way of the leaf, sees it as an option but does not accept that violence is not needed to exist in the world. He is not in love with Egwene and sees her as a sister and is protective of all of them. She also saw something I hadn't which was this idea the relationship with his wife was strained because when he gets emotional he can fly into a blind rage, she even asked, I wonder if he ever hit her. To me that added realistic depth that Rafe has added works. I have said this before but for me the boys are far far to innocent at the start of the series, unrealistically so. For 19 and a half year olds living in that rough an environment they will have experiance and had knowledge of a lot of life already. 

She got that from season 1 which is kind of on point. 

Edited January 14, 2022 by Sir_Charrid

[Deviations]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I have said this before but for me the boys are far far to innocent at the start of the series, unrealistically so. For 19 and a half year olds living in that rough an environment they will have experiance and had knowledge of a lot of life already. 

Don't forget how secluded EF is.  They'd all seen fireworks maybe once before?  Fooling around while unmarried got you in a lot of trouble, very few outsiders.  How worldly are young folks in an Amish community for example?

[Scarloc99]

54 minutes ago, Deviations said:

Don't forget how secluded EF is.  They'd all seen fireworks maybe once before?  Fooling around while unmarried got you in a lot of trouble, very few outsiders.  How worldly are young folks in an Amish community for example?

Not to take things sidewise but having re read the books there is nothing in them that indicates fooling around while unmarried gets anyone in any kind of trouble, really confused where that idea is taken from or if I missed a line somewhere? 

[Skipp]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

Not to take things sidewise but having re read the books there is nothing in them that indicates fooling around while unmarried gets anyone in any kind of trouble, really confused where that idea is taken from or if I missed a line somewhere? 

There was a quote in one of the earlier books about Nynaeve catching a couple fooling around a week before their wedding date.  I don't remember their punishment but it was something like neither could sit for a week after their wedding or something.

 

The Two Rivers in the books were very conservative when it came to sex compared to most of the other places.

 

Certainly not something I minded that the show changed. 

 

But responding to Deviations, The TR isn't that secluded.  They have peddlars and merchants that show up every year.  From the way Mat and Rand describe fireworks I imagine the village gets them every 5 years just due to the expense.  They certainly don't get alot of non Peddlar/merchant traffic but no one comments on Tam being strange for leaving and bringing in an outlander Wife.

 

I think alot of the idea of no one leaving or coming to the TR comes from the perspective of naive young adults. 

[Cauthonfan4]

4 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Nynaeve catching a couple fooling around a week before their wedding date.  I don't remember their punishment but it was something like neither could sit for a week after their wedding or something.

And if that is what happens to two who are SUPPOSED TO BE GETTING MARRIED,  imagine what the response to "free sex" would be.

 

[Deviations]

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

They have peddlars and merchants that show up every year.

Fain shows up at bel tine and its a major event.  A gleeman shows up and its massive.  Fireworks every five years?  That may be the definition of secluded.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Deviations

[Skipp]

1 hour ago, Deviations said:

Fain shows up the first time and its a major event.  A gleeman shows up and its massive.  Fireworks every five years?  That may be the definition of secluded.

Yes they are secluded, no one is denying this.  What I am against is the idea that they are so secluded that that they have no knowledge of the outside world that no one comes or goes.  Some people seem to suggest that Padan Fain is the only contact they have with the outside world.  Not an exact quote but the general meeting.

 

And yes, Fain was the first Peddler to show up that season, after a Winter that lasted longer than it should have.  Winter especially limits contact for a secluded area, so news after being out of the loop for the winter is worth being excited for.

 

A Gleeman showing up is the equivalent to major rockband showing up in a town of less than 1000 people today. Getting Thom was the equivalent to getting Metallica or AC/DC.

[Scarloc99]

13 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Yes they are secluded, no one is denying this.  What I am against is the idea that they are so secluded that that they have no knowledge of the outside world that no one comes or goes.  Some people seem to suggest that Padan Fain is the only contact they have with the outside world.  Not an exact quote but the general meeting.

 

And yes, Fain was the first Peddler to show up that season, after a Winter that lasted longer than it should have.  Winter especially limits contact for a secluded area, so news after being out of the loop for the winter is worth being excited for.

 

A Gleeman showing up is the equivalent to major rockband showing up in a town of less than 1000 people today. Getting Thom was the equivalent to getting Metallica or AC/DC.

I am also against the idea that they are all innocents, I imagine that getting a punishment won’t stop things happening, historically supposedly chase societies have actually been shown to be hot beds of indecency, it was just all very well hidden. 
 

If the families live in shared sleeping space then children will be aware of what sex is. Being it is a farming area then everyone will be aware of the birds and the bees and the idea that 19 year old men and women in a non religious community don’t have urges that they give into is just silly. 
 

No it wasn’t presented on the page but I think Rafes version of the 2 rivers is far closer to how I always pictured it, especially on a second read after knowing what the some of the boys get up to just months later on the road. 

[Andra]

2 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

I am also against the idea that they are all innocents, I imagine that getting a punishment won’t stop things happening, historically supposedly chase societies have actually been shown to be hot beds of indecency, it was just all very well hidden. 
 

If the families live in shared sleeping space then children will be aware of what sex is. Being it is a farming area then everyone will be aware of the birds and the bees and the idea that 19 year old men and women in a non religious community don’t have urges that they give into is just silly. 
 

No it wasn’t presented on the page but I think Rafes version of the 2 rivers is far closer to how I always pictured it, especially on a second read after knowing what the some of the boys get up to just months later on the road. 

Historically, in our world, your take might be accurate.

 

But in RJ's world it is explicitly stated that they were ignorant of events in the larger world around them until long after the events were over, and that premarital sex was not accepted.  Look at the conversations Rand had with Aviendha about "asking permission."

 

Also, none of the Two Rivers families whose homes are described show the parents sharing living quarters with their children.  Even Rand and Tam had their own separate bedrooms.

 

Word of the outside world came from peddlars and merchants.  And not really anyone else, because there really wasn't anyone else.  Peddlars came every few months.  Merchants probably only came after the harvest was in, to trade for wool and tabac.  Taren Ferry probably saw merchants more frequently, given their location.  But those merchants rarely came far enough into the area to get all the way to Emond's Field.  Nor did Emond's Fielders routinely travel as far as Taren Ferry.

 

The boys were unusual for how far they went on their "outings."  And it was still considered boastful for someone to say they had gone as far as Watch Hill or Deven Ride.  Which were only the next villages to north and south.

 

 

The show may provide a "more realistic" picture.  But it is CLEARLY different from the book on this.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Andra

[Mailman]

9 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

A personal opinion, my wife (never read the books) talked to me about perrin and nailed pretty well by the end of season one where he was emotionally as a character. Hate to himself for the aggressive streak he has and the way it made him kill his wife, hence not picking up the axe, unsure as to what his link to the wolves is and what it means, unsure about the way of the leaf, sees it as an option but does not accept that violence is not needed to exist in the world. He is not in love with Egwene and sees her as a sister and is protective of all of them. She also saw something I hadn't which was this idea the relationship with his wife was strained because when he gets emotional he can fly into a blind rage, she even asked, I wonder if he ever hit her. To me that added realistic depth that Rafe has added works. I have said this before but for me the boys are far far to innocent at the start of the series, unrealistically so. For 19 and a half year olds living in that rough an environment they will have experiance and had knowledge of a lot of life already. 

She got that from season 1 which is kind of on point. 

So she got possible wife beater for Perrin. Yep that really nails the character from the book.

And you think thats on point?

[Mailman]

3 hours ago, Sir_Charrid said:

 

No it wasn’t presented on the page but I think Rafes version of the 2 rivers is far closer to how I always pictured it, especially on a second read after knowing what the some of the boys get up to just months later on the road. 

Can I ask what you are referring to when you say what the boys get up to in the months later on the road?

 

 

So your version of the two rivers was a place where they 

Throw young women into rock churned rapids as a way of proving themselves mature.

The innkeepers daughter has sex in the dining room of the inn on the same day she is considered a women.

Mat is a thief 

Perrin is maybe a wife beater despite the wisdom sending him to her to check how she is.

Abell is a public drunk and womanizer. His wife a drunk.

The place looks like a hovel

 

Thats not my vision of the Two Rivers

Edited January 14, 2022 by Mailman

[JeffTheWoodlandElf]

On 11/19/2021 at 4:04 PM, DojoToad said:

Yep.  Just re-watched episode 1.  Certainly looks like she was about to wallop Perrin from behind.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Rafe come out and say that Laila wasn't a darkfriend? 

 

I found it: 

https://www.cbr.com/the-wheel-of-time-showrunner-debunks-laila-darkfriend-fan-theory/

 

I'm torn. On the one hand, the show seems to totally set up that Laila is a darkfriend. But I could also believe that Rafe literally did it on accident haha 

[Chivalry]

10 hours ago, Deviations said:

Don't forget how secluded EF is.  They'd all seen fireworks maybe once before?  Fooling around while unmarried got you in a lot of trouble, very few outsiders.  How worldly are young folks in an Amish community for example?

I don't think we even need to invoke the Amish. Just go back 100 years to any small village, pretty much anywhere in the world, including the United States and the UK. At least that seems to be what RJ was getting at. In the early books, the small town folk (EM-5) are frequently scandalized by the behavior and dress of city folk, not to mention the songs and entertainment they encounter in big city inns.

 

So the TV series does project modern values and sensibilities on to this small town. I agree, it's not just a case of aging up the kids.

[DaddyFinn]

6 hours ago, Mailman said:

The innkeepers daughter has sex in the dining room of the inn on the same day she is considered a women.

Except: Rand comes shirtless from another room to the dining room and tells Egwene she let him fall asleep. That suggests they did not have sex in the dining room.

[Mailman]

47 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Except: Rand comes shirtless from another room to the dining room and tells Egwene she let him fall asleep. That suggests they did not have sex in the dining room.

Possibly.

All the scene we get is Rand lifting her onto the bench then making out with her while standing between her legs in the dining room. There's no way to tell how far they went in each room but they certainly where getting reasonably heavy in a public place to start.

[Scarloc99]

10 hours ago, Mailman said:

So she got possible wife beater for Perrin. Yep that really nails the character from the book.

And you think thats on point?

No it isnt the character from the book, but, it does serve to show that under the surface of Perrin rage boils. I don't think that is meant to be implied from the TV show but I was ok with the writers having him kill someone. I have said many times I would have much preferred it wasn't a wife but I do understand why. 

As for the 2 rivers generally, I always assumed that off the page it was not a pure innocent upbringing, now that is my view of the 2 rivers, it is also the view of friends of mine who have read the books. Your view is your own and neither is wrong or right, but, it shows that there are book readers who are more closely aligned to Rafe as to some aspects of the 2 rivers than others. I have a friend who grew up in a small farming community in north wales. Without the threat of Wolves, death by disease or the other threats you have in a fantasy world by the age of 14 he and his friends where very aware of the life death cycle. Being taught to kill and butcher animals for food, being involved in helping animals mate and breed. He said that having nothing really to do for fun the teenagers would get together and explore and experiment. In a world where you have even more threat and danger I always saw the youngsters of the 2 rivers as sneaking away and doing things the adults would never approve of. Now that is my view based on personal experiance as a 16yo (the age I was when I first read the books) and the experiance of friends of mine. Other will have a different view of things but it doesn't mean I am wrong or you are right. It just means we take different things from the books. 

[Scarloc99]

6 hours ago, Chivalry said:

I don't think we even need to invoke the Amish. Just go back 100 years to any small village, pretty much anywhere in the world, including the United States and the UK. At least that seems to be what RJ was getting at. In the early books, the small town folk (EM-5) are frequently scandalized by the behavior and dress of city folk, not to mention the songs and entertainment they encounter in big city inns.

 

So the TV series does project modern values and sensibilities on to this small town. I agree, it's not just a case of aging up the kids.

There is a myth that 100 years ago everyone was chaste and innocent. This is far far far from the truth, people where just good at hiding it and not getting caught, if you did get caught, well, thats why there where a lot of teenage weddings back then. 

As my grandmother once said to me, "your generation didn't invent sex you know, anything you think you got up to that is scandalous I can bet my friends and I did just the same, and I learnt long ago to accept that my mother and her mother probably did as well." 

[Andra]

4 hours ago, DaddyFinn said:

Except: Rand comes shirtless from another room to the dining room and tells Egwene she let him fall asleep. That suggests they did not have sex in the dining room.

That was the next morning.  They weren't still in the dining room.

They spent the night in a room with a bed - whoever's bed it was.

[Andra]

20 minutes ago, Sir_Charrid said:

No it isnt the character from the book, but, it does serve to show that under the surface of Perrin rage boils. I don't think that is meant to be implied from the TV show but I was ok with the writers having him kill someone. I have said many times I would have much preferred it wasn't a wife but I do understand why. 

As for the 2 rivers generally, I always assumed that off the page it was not a pure innocent upbringing, now that is my view of the 2 rivers, it is also the view of friends of mine who have read the books. Your view is your own and neither is wrong or right, but, it shows that there are book readers who are more closely aligned to Rafe as to some aspects of the 2 rivers than others. I have a friend who grew up in a small farming community in north wales. Without the threat of Wolves, death by disease or the other threats you have in a fantasy world by the age of 14 he and his friends where very aware of the life death cycle. Being taught to kill and butcher animals for food, being involved in helping animals mate and breed. He said that having nothing really to do for fun the teenagers would get together and explore and experiment. In a world where you have even more threat and danger I always saw the youngsters of the 2 rivers as sneaking away and doing things the adults would never approve of. Now that is my view based on personal experiance as a 16yo (the age I was when I first read the books) and the experiance of friends of mine. Other will have a different view of things but it doesn't mean I am wrong or you are right. It just means we take different things from the books. 

There's a huge difference between what people sneak around to do because they don't want to get caught doing, and what is accepted out in the open.

In the Emond's Field of the books, it would unquestionably not have been OK for Rand and Egwene to have been getting busy with everyone's approval.

 

This is not a "different view" of things.  It's what the books explicitly say it was like.

 

Again - your view might be more realistic in this world.  But Randland isn't this world.

[DaddyFinn]

18 minutes ago, Andra said:

In the Emond's Field of the books, it would unquestionably not have been OK for Rand and Egwene to have been getting busy with everyone's approval.

Did everyone know they had sex in the show? I don't remember if it was told or shown.

[Andra]

36 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Did everyone know they had sex in the show? I don't remember if it was told or shown.

It would be hard to miss.

After all, the parents had just told them "We're going to bed.  You kids 'do the dishes.'"  Then they spent the night in one or the other of their beds.

 

It wasn't shown on screen, but there was also no attempt to even pretend they were hiding it.

 

 

[DaddyFinn]

50 minutes ago, Andra said:

After all, the parents had just told them "We're going to bed.  You kids 'do the dishes.'"  Then they spent the night in one or the other of their beds.

That can either support the viewpoint or not. Not every young couple has sex everytime they are alone or share a bed. I see what you mean though. I think the EF in the show is a bit more open and free with (premarital) sex, but that's not important for me personally and it doesn't bother me.

 

Are we getting a bit offtopic? ?

Edited January 15, 2022 by DaddyFinn