On "Wokeness" and the Wheel of Time - Be Thoughtful in Responding

[Rose]

1 minute ago, Katherine said:

 

In the book it is the soul.... which makes more sense than the body I guess.  The thing is.. this is a gendered magic system, and degendering everything will make NO SENSE in the context of the book. 

 

Again... just unnecessary change that raises more questions.... why would magic care more about the body than the soul? 

 

Well. I personally don't think it's the body. I think you channel the half that matches your gender, and that's it. Are you a woman? Then you channel saidar. Are you a man? Then you channel saidin. Body parts don't need to be involved.

[swollymammoth]

2 minutes ago, DaddyFinn said:

Except the people that want this change..

These people can suck it. 

 

[notpropaganda73]

25 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Honestly its a change that may not have a massive impact on the story (although I've hardly thought of all the repurcussions), but its a change that really doesn't make me trust the showrunners.

 

When I read this:

 

It’s a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series, and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we’ll continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.

 

It just makes me very worried about their approach. It would be one thing if this series had been adapted a thousand time like sherlock holmes or something. But taking this kind of blatant liberty with essential aspects of the WoT world makes me wonder what changes they'll consider for later on.

 

I'll still watch the show and it could still be fantastic. But if they continue on this path its gonna be hard to reconcile the show with the books.

 

I 100% agree with you. I think the quote is bad from the show's perspective and very poorly worded on Rafe's part. I don't actually have an issue with the possibility of being born a man in one life and a woman in another (I mentioned this a little bit in another thread but I'm actually quite excited about them tackling some LGBT+ characters in the show, and the possibilities for enriching the WoT world that that could bring - a female Dragon is part of that), but how Rafe has characterised it here comes off as a little dismissive of the source material almost. 

 

In contrast, another quote from him which gives me much more reassurance, from this interview with Deadline: https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wheel-of-time-mat-cauthon-role-donal-finn-rafe-jenkins-plans-amazon-series-1234870995/

 

He continued, “I think that’s the thing we do, above all else is respect the characters. I love these characters, even the bad guys. So every change that we make in the show, the thing we try never to change is these characters in the core of who they are and the actors captured that so perfectly. If that’s the thing that fans are really looking for, I think they will like this show. If they’re looking for us to stick to every single detail of the machinations of the plot or the places that they go or the people that they’ve talked to, they will more likely be disappointed. But if they’re looking for us to get these characters to screen, the heart of who they are alive, then I think we’re doing that.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rose]

Just now, Arthellion said:

Honestly, best tactic now is to hope that they mostly ignore this deeper lore in the show and we get the same story play out with limited changes. Just...very few deep dives into the lore and the places where this was changed is only small mentions or off hand comments. 

 

I honestly think this is what will happen. We won't get detailed lore. Some things will not make sense to us book fans, but the non-reader audience won't even notice.

[Beidomon]

2 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Honestly, best tactic now is to hope that they mostly ignore this deeper lore in the show and we get the same story play out with limited changes. Just...very few deep dives into the lore and the places where this was changed is only small mentions or off hand comments. 

But the LORE is what makes the story so darned good. It is what sets WOT apart. They took “heart and spine” of the series and crapped all over it. 

[TheDreadReader]

11 minutes ago, Katherine said:

It changes channeling. 

Is the "soul" connected to Saidin/Saidar or is the body? 

Whatever the answer is.... it will fundamentally change the entire world. 

 

This is one of those necessary/contingent things.    The Dragon is reborn in one age as a woman, learns how to channel saidar, and uses it to fight for the light.  The Dragon is reborn in another age as a man, learns to channel saidin, and uses it to fight for the light.   Potentially, the Dragon is reborn in another age as a trans individual, learns to channel both, and uses it to fight for the light.  Or, the Dragon is reborn and uses a different half.   There are other possible variations to this and most of them fall into the contingent category rather than being in the necessary "there can be only one way" category.

 

Is it a change that can cause ripple effects? Yes.  Is it all that consequential of change?  Perhaps, not.

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Katherine said:

 

This means they will have to change a ton of other plot points ranging from unimportant to major. 

 

How?

 

If in a previous age Rand was a woman that channeled saider and in both the AoL and this one he is a  man that channels saidin, what change to the plot does that have?   

 

I mean it could have ripple effects for Mat if you look at it a certain way.

 

 

[Arthellion]

Just now, Beidomon said:

But the LORE is what makes the story so darned good. It is what sets WOT apart. They took “heart and spine” of the series and crapped all over it. 

I do agree with you here. The show will definitely be lesser for it....

 

But at the same time doesn't mean it still can't be epic television. We were unlikely to get deep dives into Saidin/Saidar and the magic system. 

 

I'm sorely disappointed...but at least the actors theyv'e chosen seem to encapsulate the heart of the characters. Excited to see how Rand grows. ?

[Flamen]

The non-reader audience won't even notice as it will something completely different -  "Wheel of Woke" by RAFE

[DaddyFinn]

5 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

These people can suck it. 

 

Such a mature response. ?

[Skipp]

13 minutes ago, WalterKohl said:

Did the books every say that his memories were his past lives or just the memories that the Alefin and Elafin (sp?) had harvested and shoved in his head?  

Considering he had memories from either side of the same battle I believe they' weren't his past lives.  But I could be remembering that wrong as I don't have the direct reference forit.

[Katherine]

7 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

Well. I personally don't think it's the body. I think you channel the half that matches your gender, and that's it. Are you a woman? Then you channel saidar. Are you a man? Then you channel saidin. Body parts don't need to be involved.

I totally get what you are saying, and agree 100%. But in this world that would cause issues.... Which is why this change is weird. 

 

So are female bodies going to channel saidin? 

 

Are there males channeling saidar and becoming Aes Sedai? 

 

 

[notpropaganda73]

3 minutes ago, Katherine said:

I totally get what you are saying, and agree 100%. But in this world that would cause issues.... Which is why this change is weird. 

 

So are female bodies going to channel saidin? 

 

Are there males channeling saidar and becoming Aes Sedai? 

 

 

 

Not that I have a perfect answer for how they may handle it, but considering the Aes Sedai in the books are constantly surprised by what the Sea Folk and Aiel know in terms of channelling, it would not surprise me if the AS remained completely ignorant of, for example, a trans woman being able to channel saidar. 

 

When you consider the small percentage of channelers in Randland, and if we are to think of our own world as a parallel, the very small percentage of our society who identify as trans for example, we are really talking about maybe one character that they may introduce in the show that is a departure from the books in this regard. 

 

The possibility of a female Dragon is a slightly separate discussion from the above though I think

Edited November 10, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[TheDreadReader]

53 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

Just quoting myself from other thread here since this seems place to talk about it:

 

I don't like the change and think it really undermines some of the key tensions that exists in the story. Makes me worried that Rafe really doesn't underestand what I consider to be the heart of the tension in Wheel of Time.

Doesn't mean it won't be a good show, but hate that the gender essentialism is basically removed.

 

I agree with your main point.  But, I tend to think that part of RJ's intention was to basically say that in some circumstances woman in power would act like men in power not because of their gender but because of the nature of power.

 

An example would be how many Aes Sedai effectively "mansplain" to Rand how he is wrong based on their position as Aes Sedai?

 

 

[MasterAblar]

31 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

this is all true. but it is very tricky business. it's extremely easy to get carried away with this and end up with discrimination in the opposite way. an even worse discrimination, because it would be written in law, and good luck as a white male complaining you're being discriminated.

I am not familiar with the movie industry, but when i did my PhD, the call for young researchers mentioned explicitly that, all else being equal, women were to be preferred over men. I can see where this comes from, and how women are underrepresented and face additional obstacles, but as they say, two wrongs don't make one right.

Just like picking someone because he's white is an injustice, so is picking someone because he's not white.

And no, i don't have a magical solution for this. Nobody has one. I can only invite everyone to caution and moderation. the only way we can make this work is by trial and error. This requires that everyone is ready to learn from past mistakes and improve on what's not working. which can't happen if everyone is so ideologically stuck on their positions that they'll refuse to change

 

Time is typically part (although obviously not the whole) of a solution that isn't unfair to someone. Its also something people typically won't allow to right inequality. At least that's how I see it.

[Katherine]

https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wheel-of-time-mat-cauthon-role-donal-finn-rafe-jenkins-plans-amazon-series-1234870995/

 

Confirmed. Rand will be the Dragon. 

 

[Arthellion]

2 minutes ago, TheDreadReader said:

 

I agree with your main point.  But, I tend to think that part of RJ's intention was to basically say that in some circumstances woman in power would act like men in power not because of their gender but because of the nature of power.

 

An example would be how many Aes Sedai effectively "mansplain" to Rand how he is wrong based on their position as Aes Sedai?

 

 

To which I would offer, "Why do women have this power?" One of the things i loved about Wheel of Time was that it was a inversion of what we experience in the real world. 

 

Honestly, as a white male, the book was very helpful for me in learning to empathize with oppressed groups. Not solely obviously, but there was a sense in which I could empathize with how oppressed groups would feel.

 

Feeling that systemic oppression applied to men in Wheel of Time, not because of anything they had done or what positins they held, but simply because they were men was one way the series affected my reading. 

 

 

[swollymammoth]

To those people who keep defending massive changes like this, 

 

You like these changes because they align with your own worldview, and you'll accept any change so long as it serves to reinforce your preexisting beliefs. Your defense isn't rooted in any sort of principle or desire to see WoT done right but in loyalty to yourself. In essence, you've always viewed the original WoT as flawed, an inferior and outdated version which only needed to be remade in your image to achieve true perfection. 

[Katherine]

Maybe it will be like Avatar the Last Airbender?

 

Avatar is someone different every generation.. sometimes male sometimes female?

 

IT was a none-issue in that show.... and keeps with the other things that Rafe said about an eastern ideology behind the magic system. 

 

[notpropaganda73]

3 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

To those people who keep defending massive changes like this, 

 

You like these changes because they align with your own worldview, and you'll accept any change so long as it serves to reinforce your preexisting beliefs. Your defense isn't rooted in any sort of principle or desire to see WoT done right but in loyalty to yourself. In essence, you've always viewed the original WoT as flawed, an inferior and outdated version which only needed to be remade in your image to achieve true perfection. 

 

I really think this is unfair. It's interesting to me that you're so eager to definitively tell me why I am not immediately against these changes for an adaptation. 

 

But in response, all art is flawed, but the best art stirs something within us where we can see ourselves in it, whether that is music, film, books or paintings. WoT undoubtedly does that for both you and me, so we come from a common place. The reasons I love WoT will not be the same reasons that you love it. That's ok. 

[mogi68]

Don't gendered souls actually support the notion of transgenderism, though? IE even though I may be born into a male body, my essence is female. If the soul is not gendered, then there's no way to decide whether you channel saidar or saidin unless it's controlled by the body physiology. It seems like this is just going to muddy the waters.

 

I'm sure it's not going to really be a problem in the actual show, but theorycrafters may have a rough time with this.

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by mogi68

[notpropaganda73]

Just now, mogi68 said:

Don't gendered souls actually support the notion of transgenderism, though? IE even though I may be born into a male body, my essence is female. It seems like this is just going to muddy the waters.

 

 

I actually think so to be honest. I always felt Halima/Aran'gar was something interesting that was not fleshed out more and I was disappointed about that (much like Shara was not a factor). It's definitely an unfair criticism considering how rich the world RJ gave us that I wanted more! 

[SinisterDeath]

47 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

This is the point that so many people on this forum don't get. Yeah, these changes don't bother some people, but they're still alienating fans unnecessarily for no reason. Changing nothing would have resulted in 0 people angry. 

Not changing anything at all, would have angered people.

[Arthellion]

9 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

Don't gendered souls actually support the notion of transgenderism, though? IE even though I may be born into a male body, my essence is female. It seems like this is just going to muddy the waters.

 

I'm sure it's not going to really be a problem in the actual show, but theorycrafters may have a rough time with this.

 

My thought on this is that souls will be gendered...based on whether they touch saidin/saidar. Might get something where rather than Male/Female souls you get Saidin/Saidar souls. Saidin souls are more likely to be born male but not required to be? 

 

Not sure. But it does support the idea that your essence and who you are are more separate from your body. 

 

It ties more/less into gender fluidity than transgender theory...though I'm by no means an expert on that. 

Edited November 10, 2021 by Arthellion

[notpropaganda73]

1 minute ago, SinisterDeath said:

Not changing anything at all, would have angered people.

I want all the spanking scenes and I want them exactly as they appear in the books! 

[Rose]

30 minutes ago, Katherine said:

I totally get what you are saying, and agree 100%. But in this world that would cause issues.... Which is why this change is weird. 

 

So are female bodies going to channel saidin? 

 

Are there males channeling saidar and becoming Aes Sedai? 

 

 

 

Well we already have Halima in the books as a precedent for that. I would assume they're only taking that and saying "this can happen naturally without it being a punishment from the Dark One"