tv show spoilers S1E7: The Dark Along the Ways

[VooDooNut]

8 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

You're not telling people not to enjoy the show, but you are telling us to stop jumping through hoops to justify things - is it so hard to imagine that we are not jumping through any hoops or performing any mental gymnastics, but are simply enjoying the show and coming up with ideas and suggestions for what direction the show might go in? 

 

Honestly, why the hyperbole? Who is saying Rafe is some sort of genius? Why is that the leap you make when people are just saying "Maybe this is what they're trying to do here" or "I expect/hope we'll see that in coming seasons" or "I can understand why they've shifted focus for this first season". You talk about separating the objective from the subjective but the whole reason there was a WoT fandom that was so active online for years is because the books themselves are not some objective truth, people debated about things for literal decades, even when Robert Jordan would tell us otherwise. 

 

Form my POV, being constantly told that it's the "Rafe of Time" or "This is Rafe's story, it's not even Wheel of Time" is exhausting. I much prefer talking about criticisms and problems with the show and teasing out why it doesn't work or how they might fix it going forward. But, honestly, it feels like my criticism aren't valid to many unless I'm also upset about Nynaeve or Lan or whatever else. So yeah, the exhaustion goes both ways. 

Amen.

Just now, dwn said:

I'm watching it with three casual book readers, and we all roughly agree that it's pretty good. Not mind-blowing, but well above the quality threshold most fantasy adaptations struggle to reach. Sure, plot details are different, but the overall shape of the story is there. Likewise with the characters--exaggerated here and there, which is often the case for TV, but true to their personalities and roles in the books.

Looking forward to more crazy critiques and convos with you folks as the series develops! ?

[CaddySedai]

It is possible to enjoy the books, the series, and even the old PC game simultaneously.

 

Its also possible to hate the series, love the books, never have played the game.

 

Or love the series, hate the books, and the game.

 

There is infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

[Gothic Flame]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

We didn't see Rand channeling in his POV in the first book until the end. He had no idea what was happening

And did anyone see logain channel in the first book?

[CaddySedai]

10 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

And did anyone see logain channel in the first book?

 

To be fair you barely see Logain in the first book and it's briefly in Caemlyn, while he's being shielded by the Aes Sedai and prevented from Touching the True Source.

 

So no. Nobody saw him...except for the Aes Sedai who captured him...and even then they wouldn't have seen his weaves anyhow ? Just felt. 

[JaimAybara]

I think they have done things very well and other things very poorly, but at the end of the day seeing my friends who I’ve convinced to watch the show really get into the world of WoT has been pretty special for me. And if they enjoy it enough eventually they may read the books too one day. But I do think it possible to get some things right and other things wrong, the all or nothing positions don’t make sense to me. 
 

-I really enjoyed added screentime for Logain.

 

-Hated Mat and Perrin’s backstories.

 

- I love how Valda was selected as another big bad. 
 

-Wasn’t crazy about Shadar Logoth.

 

-liked the Ways more than I thought I would.

 

-love Lan and Nynaeve.

 

-Rand getting flashback exposition…not thrilled.

 

I think it’s kind of a rollercoaster ride for the wrong reasons at the moment, but due to its popularity I think they will get more funding and maybe even more episodes per season to work out the kinks. 

[NetNightmare]

1 hour ago, DaddyFinn said:

We didn't see Rand channeling in his POV in the first book until the end. He had no idea what was happening

Are you by chance quoting book knowledge here ? because it is quite clear that in the "show" we see Logain channel from various PoV and we do not see Rand channel if not later on the flashback. I agree with the original poster that the show is lying to the audience they cheated to cover the "who is the dragon Reborn", if you do not agree that it is "cheating" you will at least convene it is quite confusing at the best...

 

[RhienneAgain]

3 minutes ago, JaimAybara said:

I think they have done things very well and other things very poorly, but at the end of the day seeing my friends who I’ve convinced to watch the show really get into the world of WoT has been pretty special for me. And if they enjoy it enough eventually they may read the books too one day. But I do think it possible to get some things right and other things wrong, the all or nothing positions don’t make sense to me. 
 

-I really enjoyed added screentime for Logain.

 

-Hated Mat and Perrin’s backstories.

 

- I love how Valda was selected as another big bad. 
 

-Wasn’t crazy about Shadar Logoth.

 

-liked the Ways more than I thought I would.

 

-love Lan and Nynaeve.

 

-Rand getting flashback exposition…not thrilled.

 

I think it’s kind of a rollercoaster ride for the wrong reasons at the moment, but due to its popularity I think they will get more funding and maybe even more episodes per season to work out the kinks. 

Totally agree with you. I feel the same - there are things I like more than in the books, and things I like less. My list is completely different from yours (for example, I prefer Lan and Nynaeve in the books and really dislike what they've done with these characters and their relationship in the show) but it just goes to show what a challenge the showrunners took on when developing this - even longstanding fans of the series don't agree all the time on which are positives and negatives from the show!

[CaddySedai]

One could say that we have only seen channeling in the presence of a channeler.

 

Rand was not in the presence of one breaking down the ironwood door. So we would not have seen it. And in the Ways - it was masked by his proximity to the other known channelers.

 

Sort of how in HP - Harry doesn't know he is doing magic until someone tells him.

 

It would not hold up in the books - but it DOES make sense in the context of the show.

[CaddySedai]

Just now, Dead Warder said:

But is it possible to hate the books but love the Companion, love the RPG, hate the show, love the PC game but hate the CCG? ?

 

Yes.

[NetNightmare]

I've come up with a question about the ways.....we seems to know the waygate can be opened "also" with the avendesora leaf (Fain X ray picture) the question is :

 

1. Does Loial ignore the fact ?? because when they enter the ways he say: it is "impossible" to open the gate now because it will require the use of the one power and so attract Machin Shin

2. Does Moraine ignore it as well ?? and in that case what was her plan to distract Machin Shin when opening the exit waygate (while doing the matrix wave heh) ?

[CaddySedai]

4 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

I've come up with a question about the ways.....we seems to know the waygate can be opened "also" with the avendesora leaf (Fain X ray picture) the question is :

 

1. Does Loial ignore the fact ?? because when they enter the ways he say: it is "impossible" to open the gate now because it will require the use of the one power and so attract Machin Shin

2. Does Moraine ignore it as well ?? and in that case what was her plan to distract Machin Shin when opening the exit waygate (while doing the matrix wave heh) ?

 

I feel she was hoping the interior waygates may still have their means of opening. And even if not. As long as you were at the exit point, channel fast enough to get out before Machin Shin shows up. 

 

The Trolloc and unintentional Dragon Reborning sorta blew the timeline up. 

 

And as far as Loial - I would think since he saw her channel to open the gate, she likely did not have means of RE opening said gate without the OP. Thus blowing their attempt to use the Ways from the get go.

[NetNightmare]

4 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Rand was not in the presence of one breaking down the ironwood door. So we would not have seen it. And in the Ways - it was masked by his proximity to the other known channelers.

Soooo why we see Egwene channeling into the Whitecloacks tent ?? where is the "channeler" here ?

[JaimAybara]

4 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

- even longstanding fans of the series don't agree all the time on which are positives and negatives from the show!

Haha ain’t that the truth. Was it because it moved too fast for Lan and Nynaeve? Or do you not like their chemistry? 

[CaddySedai]

Just now, NetNightmare said:

Soooo why we see Egwene channeling into the Whitecloacks tent ?? where is the "channeler" here ?

 

Egwene. She at that point was well aware (as were we) that she could channel. 

 

One could argue the knowledge was unlocked by M. She had her "Harry, You're a Wizard" moment already.

[DigificWriter]

Regarding the 'inconsistent' visualization of Weaves, the characters within the world of the show can't visibly see people gathering Weaves together, only the physical effects generated by or resulting from the gathering of said Weaves (such as fireballs, lightning, objects being hurled, seemingly unbreachable doors being knocked down, or brilliant explosions of light).

 

Therefore, the visualization of said Weaves is purely an out-of-universe storytelling tool that the production team either uses or doesn't use depending on what they're intending to communicate to the audience.

Edited December 19, 2021 by DigificWriter

[NetNightmare]

2 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Egwene. She at that point was well aware (as were we) that she could channel. 

 

Well obviously you are free to see it that way, in my opinion they simply decided not to show Rand channeling because it served their purpose in the "Who is the Dragon Reborn?". In the show they didn't bother to explain to the audience the "weaving" is only supposed to be seen from those who can channel that side of the power, so I m going to assume it is something seen by all, up to the moment that they tell us so ".

 

To a non book-reader you should convene this is alot confusing at the best

[Sabio]

12 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

Soooo why we see Egwene channeling into the Whitecloacks tent ?? where is the "channeler" here ?

I do feel they have been a little inconsistent with items like this, all the Rand stuff was simply to hide he is the DR,  They also forgot to show how exactly Egwene got free from her hands being bound.

[NetNightmare]

12 minutes ago, DigificWriter said:

the characters within the world of the show can't visibly see people gathering Weaves together, only the physical effects generated by the gathering of said Weaves.

Well can you point me to the point of the show where they explain this ? granted I see it at 1am and I may have missed it ...

Edited December 19, 2021 by NetNightmare

[CaddySedai]

2 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

 

Well obviously you are free to see it that way, in my opinion they simply decided not to show Rand channeling because it served their purpose in the "Who is the Dragon Reborn?".

 

This is truth as well. But as you said - its all how we ourselves choose to see it. 

 

Until they say one way or another - neither of us are right or wrong. Nor is either opinion invalid.

 

The only people who know are the showrunners and they have yet to comment on it.

[Seraphine]

I do think that the show "cheated" by not showing the clue of Tam and Rand on Winternight or not showing Machin Shin's full words to Rand when they're in the Ways at the beginning of the episode. But not showing the weaves when Rand channeled makes sense to me and doesn't feel inconsistent with the book. From what I remember from the books, there is at least one moment in the EoTW on the journey to Whitebridge with Mat where he channels but doesn't realize it. And we see the same kind of hinting in Egwene's Accepted test (Rand is channeling but not realizing it in the first ring). As others have indicated, you could make the argument that we don't see the weaves unless the channeler realizes what they are doing (or there's someone else there to point out the channeling). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DigificWriter]

7 minutes ago, NetNightmare said:

Well can you point me to the point of the show where they explain this ? granted I see it at 1am and I may have missed it ...

 

It's not in-show information that people within the world can't see Channelers' Weaves, but information conveyed by the show's book consultant, Sarah Nakamura, about the world as the show is depicting it.

 

Although the show did tell us that the Aes Sedai couldn't see Logain's Weaves, so the clarification on the subject from Sarah builds on that.

[ArrylT]

52 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

 

To be fair you barely see Logain in the first book and it's briefly in Caemlyn, while he's being shielded by the Aes Sedai and prevented from Touching the True Source.

 

So no. Nobody saw him...except for the Aes Sedai who captured him...and even then they wouldn't have seen his weaves anyhow ? Just felt. 

 

So therefore the suggestion is that because the Aes Sedai could shield him means that we did not need to have him (in the 1st book) channel.   Because the Aes Sedai should not shield someone who could not channel.

 

Robert Jordan thus did not need Rand to have been seen channeling before they reached the Eye, because Logain provided that consequence.

 

The show did not need Rand to have been seen channelling before the reveal, and in Ep4/5 we saw the same thing the consequences of a male channeler in Logains story arc.   Obviously there was that open in Ep1 but we never saw that guy channel and I think that was more intended to show the imbalance, the mission statement of the Red, and the effects of madness. 

 

Pretty similar and in keeping with the heart of EOTW imo, even though this is a full series adaptation rather than a book by book linear adaptation.   Even without the mystery aspect and the desire to use an ensemble cast from the get-go than a Rand-centric S1, it seems that not having Rand shown channeling before the EOTW was pretty on point. 

 

I wonder, and would not be surprised, if some of the plans for 7/8 were altered by Mats departure.  IE I think the whole reveal would have occurred in Ep8 with all of them at the EOTW, instead of just before.  They could then have spent a little longer (2-4 min) with the Ways in ep7.     I think Ep7 was originally designed to close with Tam Al'Thor finding Tigraine and the birth on Dragonmount (to balance the cold open and set up the reveal at the beginning of 8).

 

Then Ep8 cold open could have been LTT and then we shift to the characters going to the Eye with us knowing it was Rand but Rand not , when we would have had the Quarry Road flashback, as well as the other snippets happen at the Eye when Rand makes the full realization.  

 

Who knows - just speculation on my part.

Edited December 19, 2021 by ArrylT
word edit to clarify

[CaddySedai]

4 minutes ago, ArrylT said:

 Because the Aes Sedai could not shield someone who could not channel.

 

Just to nit-pick...they could shield ANYONE they wanted. It would just be useless to shield someone who...you know...couldn't ?

Edited December 19, 2021 by CaddySedai

[ArrylT]

Just now, CaddySedai said:

 

Just to nit-pick...they could shield ANYONE they wanted. It would just be useless to shield someone who...you know...couldn't ?

 

Yes sorry, I figured that was implied, but good to have it mentioned.  ?

[divica]

whatever we want to speculate about the weaves it is undeniable that the show ignored the effects of rand finding out that tam wasn't his father in ep 1. This makes no sense. And by showing tam confensing this in a few seconds in the last ep it was just an info dump that had no effect on the character.

The whole way they handled the revelation of the DR was very poor and they lost a huge oportunity to give some kind of story to rand by not having the tam scene on the first ep.

 

They could even have used the fact that the DR is suposed to be born from outside the village to make rand discover he was the DR.

 

This as was just very poor storytelling...