Moiraine at the White Tower

[Caroline]

Do we know whether Moiraine returns to the White Tower between the events in New Spring and The Eye of the World? I'm hoping she sometimes sneaks into the Tower kitchens to catch up with Siuan, but I don't think there's anything to indicate that.

[Sabio]

We know she visits since the WT knows Lan is her warder etc, there is no need for her to sneak in the WT since no one knows what she is up to.  Also something like 18 years pass from the Dragon being reborn and EOTW.  So she is bound to visit time to time in that time.

[Ryrin]

 

No, she does not. Siuan does not see her or hear from her for 20 years. RJ was going to write another prequel from the time Moiraine bonds Lan to the time Moiraine and Lan enter the Three Rivers. Unfortunately, RJ became ill and passed away and he did not leave any notes

Edited November 29, 2019 by Ryrin

[Sabio]

Ummm well we know that isn't true, They saw each other in New Spring , which is after the Dragon was reborn and Rand wasn't 20.  I know it was said she should visit more but nowhere do  I remember seeing that Moiraine never went to the WT for short visits.  She has reasons for not going there too often, as she can't be 100% sure the BA doesn't have her name.  But I think it stands to reason in 18 years or so she is going to stop by a few times, if nothing else to  catch up on the latest information.  If you think about it that would mean since she got raised as an Aes Sedai she would of never of gone to the tower once.  Since right after getting raised she set out on her hunt.  So it should stand that Lan and her visited a few times in those years.

[iseespots]

She almost certainly had to return at some point in the intervening time.  At some point Lan gets his fan-cloth warder cloak, and Moiraine obtains her angreal.  

[Ryrin]

No, 

On 11/30/2019 at 10:27 AM, Sabio said:

Ummm well we know that isn't true, They saw each other in New Spring , which is after the Dragon was reborn and Rand wasn't 20.  I know it was said she should visit more but nowhere do  I remember seeing that Moiraine never went to the WT for short visits.  She has reasons for not going there too often, as she can't be 100% sure the BA doesn't have her name.  But I think it stands to reason in 18 years or so she is going to stop by a few times, if nothing else to  catch up on the latest information.  If you think about it that would mean since she got raised as an Aes Sedai she would of never of gone to the tower once.  Since right after getting raised she set out on her hunt.  So it should stand that Lan and her visited a few times in those years.

 

5 hours ago, iseespots said:

She almost certainly had to return at some point in the intervening time.  At some point Lan gets his fan-cloth warder cloak, and Moiraine obtains her angreal.  

We know that is true. Siuan says as much. 

Moiraine took her angreal when she left the Tower. See my other posts for clarification. It was twenty years between New Spring and Eye of the World. 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Ryrin

[Ryrin]

working on a spoiler tag plus info

Edited December 2, 2019 by Ryrin

[iseespots]

13 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

No, 

 

No, she did not. Siuan says as much.

 

Curious, what’s the textev for that?

 

3 minutes ago, Ryrin said:

working on a spoiler tag plus info

 

Gotcha

[Ryrin]

[Ryrin]

Siuan: “That young man, he’s the one we have sought these twenty years.”

 

I have the whole WoT books on Kindle. I’m looking at it now.

Edited December 2, 2019 by Ryrin

[icspots]

I still think the evidence is circumstantial.  Yes Siuan states she’s only received two messages from her since she left the Tower, but she doesn’t say when Moiraine last left the Tower.  There are a few tid bits in support of Moiraine having returned to the Tower since New Spring.  

 

At the end of New Spring Moiraine sends Siuan back to the tower to work with the Blue’s Eyes and Ears, look out for signs of the Black Ajah, etc.  They have no concrete plans at this point besides finding the boy child.  So in the 20 years they developed those plans, and somehow I doubt they decided to communicate by messenger/bird their plans given how anyone who intercepted those plans would tend to react.  The quote above clearly states they had plans.  We know from Moiraine’s message to Siuan after Rand took Callandor that anything they’d communicate that way would be short and non-specific riddles.  “The Sling has been used.  The Shepard holds the sword” or some such.  Not a lot of concrete planning being communicated that way.

 

Lan has a warder cloak, made from a Ter’Angreal which is in the Tower.  I’m sure there might be some way for Moiraine to arrange to have a cloak shipped out somewhere for her, so that could go either way.  

 

The Great Hunt - The Shadow in Shienar - in reference to Healing Mat of the Shadar Logoth dagger

”Leanne will do for one, and I can find another.”  Suddenly the Amyrlin Seat gave a wry grin.  “The Hall wants that angreal back, Moiraine.  There are not very many of them left, and you are now considered...unreliable.”

Moiraine has an angreal which she did not have in New Spring.  An angreal is not something the Hall would likely allow to be sent out by courier given how rare and valuable they are, so it’s suggestive she picked it up in person.  

 

Moiraine thinks in New Spring that she wouldn’t return to the Tower until she attained her full strength, something which she did between NS, and tEotW.  This was, I believe, in relation to an encounter with Cadsuane, but I don’t have the quote handy at the moment.

 

New Spring - A Narrow Passage - Moiraine thinking to herself

”Sisters did slip in and out of the Tower quietly sometimes”

 

The Great Hunt - Summoned - Anaiya to Moraine

”This time, Moiraine,” Anaiya said, “you have been gone from Tar Valon too long.  Much too long.  Tar Valon misses you.  Your sisters miss you.  And you are needed in the White Tower.” emphasis mine

Assuming Moiraine never returned to the Tower after New Spring Anaiya saying Moiraine had been away too long “this time” doesn’t make sense.  I can’t remember from New Spring if Moiraine ever left the tower after enrolling as a Novice, just that she and Siuan arrived the same day, and progressed in lockstep with three years each as Novice and Accepted.  There are multiple comments throughout the series that the Tower didn’t lightly let Novices or Accepted out of it’s control.  It does strongly imply that she has returned other time(s) in the last 20 years, and that this particular time away has been especially long.  An extended time off the grid would also align with Siuan’s displeasure in only receiving the two messages.

[Ryrin]

Moiraine would not have slipped into the Tower. Not only did she leave without permission but the Tower had planned for her to sit on the Sun throne as Queen. Moiraine had no desire to be queen nor to stop her search for Rand. That’s why she left and would not risk returning. Siuan was very upset there were only two messages in 20 years. She had no idea what was going on until Moiraine entered the Three Rivers twenty years later.

 

Moirane left the Tower in New Spring with the angreal. The Tower not only wanted it back the Greens and Reds wanted her punished. The Greens agreed to let the Reds oversee it.

 

Yes, Moiraine has been gone too long, some 20 years. Moiraine is from House Damodred. Her Uncle was King. It took her six years to be raised to Aes Sedai. It’s highly unlikely, coming from a noble house, that she did not return in 6 years.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Ryrin

[Sabio]

Moiraine was never in line for the throne. The companion shows she had two older sisters and her cousin Lady Caraline succeeded Barthanes as high seat.,   She was actually almost considered an outcast from the family since her dad married for love instead of for land or gaining more power for the family.   Her family had a dark reputation. which is why she rarely used her house name, it was clear she really didn't want anything to do with her family because the family had such a dark reputation. Also until you reach Aes Sedai you can't leave the tower, so it means no running off to see your family.  That would be too big of a risk for someone to runaway.  Even Elayne couldn't simply leave anytime she wanted to.

 

If she had that angreal in New Spring why not use it when she was fighting the BA?  Also as pointed out Lan would need to get his cloak etc.  So she had to of visited a few times, some possibly by secret.  But also would of seemed odd her trying to speak to Siuan, so when she was there it would make sense not to contact Siuan.  

 

Rand is like 18 at the start of the series,  so they couldn't of started the search for him almost 2 years before he was born.  Also she didn't start the search immedietly, Tamra wouldn't let Moiraine leave the tower to go hunt.  So she couldn't leave the tower to go searching until Tamra died.  

[icspots]

9 hours ago, Ryrin said:

Moiraine would not have slipped into the Tower. Not only did she leave without permission but the Tower had planned for her to sit on the Sun throne as Queen. Moiraine had no desire to be queen nor to stop her search for Rand.That’s why she left and would not risk returning. Siuan was very upset there were only two messages in 20 years. She had no idea what was going on until Moiraine entered the Three Rivers twenty years later.

 

Moirane left the Tower in New Spring with the angreal. The Tower not only wanted it back the Greens and Reds wanted her punished. The Greens agreed to let the Reds oversee it.

 

Yes, Moiraine has been gone too long, some 20 years. Moiraine is from House Damodred. Her Uncle was King. It took her six years to be raised to Aes Sedai. It’s highly unlikely, coming from a noble house, that she did not return in 6 years.

 

 

 

I’m sorry, but that one statement from Siuan doesn’t state she hadn’t returned ever, or give a timeframe for when she sent those two messages.  To be fair there also isn’t a direct statement I’m aware of which says she did.  Only the circumstantial tid bits I’ve noted.

 

Yes, the Hall wanted very strongly to sit a full Aes Sedai on the Sun Throne after Laman’s death, and the death of Moiraine’s uncles.  Those events caused a power vacuum in Cairhien and made placing her there an option.  And yes that was one reason Moiraine fled the Tower.  But once the Succession figured itself out and a monarch was crowned (was that Galldrain, or was there another person before him) being forced to become queen wouldn’t have been an issue.  

 

New Spring - Moiraine fleeing the Tower

”They could not put her on the Sun Throne, now. By the time the Hall found her, another would be secure in it. And she was off to find the boy-child. She was off on an adventure as grand as any ever undertaken by an Aes Sedai”

 

As to the angreal you need to provide textev that she had it with her in New Spring.  There’s any number of times she thinks on her lack of full power in New Spring, and having an angreal would’ve help even the odds in the situations where she was most threatened.  She left the Tower precipitously after getting Sieran to reassign the distribution of the Bounty to someone else, and Sieran told her to stick around because they’d have another task for her (being crowned), so not like she had time to go to the angreal library and check one out.

 

I really don’t think Moiraine left the Tower before being raised.  One I don’t believe there’s textev for it.  Two as stated multiple times throughout the books the Tower doesn’t let Novices or Accepted out without significant reason (Siuan sending the super girls out was unthinkable for the Tower as a whole), and the Tower does not care or pander to noble titles an initiate has.  Think on Elaine’s treatment as not only a noble, but as a Crown Princess of a realm super friendly to the Tower.  

[icspots]

47 minutes ago, Sabio said:

Moiraine was never in line for the throne. The companion shows she had two older sisters and her cousin Lady Caraline succeeded Barthanes as high seat.,   She was actually almost considered an outcast from the family since her dad married for love instead of for land or gaining more power for the family.   Her family had a dark reputation. which is why she rarely used her house name, it was clear she really didn't want anything to do with her family because the family had such a dark reputation. Also until you reach Aes Sedai you can't leave the tower, so it means no running off to see your family.  That would be too big of a risk for someone to runaway.  Even Elayne couldn't simply leave anytime she wanted to.

 

If she had that angreal in New Spring why not use it when she was fighting the BA?  Also as pointed out Lan would need to get his cloak etc.  So she had to of visited a few times, some possibly by secret.  But also would of seemed odd her trying to speak to Siuan, so when she was there it would make sense not to contact Siuan.  

 

Rand is like 18 at the start of the series,  so they couldn't of started the search for him almost 2 years before he was born.  Also she didn't start the search immedietly, Tamra wouldn't let Moiraine leave the tower to go hunt.  So she couldn't leave the tower to go searching until Tamra died.  

 

There were better options in the Damodred line, but with the support of the Tower her less than direct claim probably would have been sustained.   As it is the throne passed from house Damodred to Riatan (unless there was another monarch in there somewhere).

 

”20 years” is a convenient rounding up.  The “Hunt” for the boy-child began with Gitara’s Fortelling, then within months she was on the road tracking down names.  18 years later the events of tEotW occur, and take much of the year.  By the time Siuan and Co. Arrive in Fal Dara it’s been nearly 19 years ...... so 20 years isn’t that much of a stretch.

[icspots]

10 hours ago, Ryrin said:

The Tower not only wanted it back the Greens and Reds wanted her punished. The Greens agreed to let the Reds oversee it.

 

Yes, Siuan specifically says this to Moiraine, but you have the context wrong.

 

The Great Hunt - Summoned - Siuan to Moiraine

”Elaida had another reason for coming to Tar Valon, Daughter.  She sent the same message by six different pigeons to make sure I received it - and to whom else in Tar Valon she sent pigeons, I can only guess - then came herself.  She told the Hall of the Tower that you are meddling with a young man who is ta’veren, and dangerous.  he was in Camlyn, she said, but when she found the inn where he had been staying, she discovered you had spirited him away.”

 

Moiraine says she hopes Elaida caused the innkeeper (Basil Gill) no harm, and Siuan goes on to say that Elaida harms no one except those are dangerous (darkfriends, male channelers, those who would harm the Tower), then further that Elaida said Rand was more dangerous than any man since Arthur Hawkwing, has the Fortelling and her words carry weight in the Hall.  Moiraine admits she has three young men with her but none are a king

 

”Yes, Daughter.  Village youths, so Lord Agelmar tells me.  But one of them is ta’veren.” The Amyrlin’s eyes strayed to the flattened cube again.  “It was put forward in the Hall that you should be sent into retreat for contemplation.  This was proposed by one of the Sitters for the Green Agah, with the other two nodding approval as she spoke”

 

So here we see the progression

-Elaida meets Rand

-Moiraine escapes Caemlyn to the Ways

-Elaida finds Rand gone, sends six messenger pigeons and then goes in person to Tar Valon

-Elaida tells the Hall that Moiraine is meddling with a dangerous young man who is ta’veren

-The Greens propose a punishment for Moiraine for having meddled with the young man

-Moiraine is now considered unreliable and the Hall wants back the angreal she has

 

There’s eight pages and a chapter divide between the discussion of the proposal to recall Moiraine and Siuan saying the Hall wanted the angreal back because Moiraine was now considered “unreliable”, so I don’t think you can make an argument that they were going to punish her for having the angreal.

[Ryrin]

2 hours ago, Sabio said:

Moiraine was never in line for the throne. The companion shows she had two older sisters and her cousin Lady Caraline succeeded Barthanes as high seat.,   She was actually almost considered an outcast from the family since her dad married for love instead of for land or gaining more power for the family.   Her family had a dark reputation. which is why she rarely used her house name, it was clear she really didn't want anything to do with her family because the family had such a dark reputation. Also until you reach Aes Sedai you can't leave the tower, so it means no running off to see your family.  That would be too big of a risk for someone to runaway.  Even Elayne couldn't simply leave anytime she wanted to.

 

If she had that angreal in New Spring why not use it when she was fighting the BA?  Also as pointed out Lan would need to get his cloak etc.  So she had to of visited a few times, some possibly by secret.  But also would of seemed odd her trying to speak to Siuan, so when she was there it would make sense not to contact Siuan.  

 

Rand is like 18 at the start of the series,  so they couldn't of started the search for him almost 2 years before he was born.  Also she didn't start the search immedietly, Tamra wouldn't let Moiraine leave the tower to go hunt.  So she couldn't leave the tower to go searching until Tamra died

 

I quoted the relevant passages. Both Siuan and Moiraine state more than once in Fal Dara that they have been searching for Rand for twenty years. Rand is 20 or almost 20. I’ve already posted word for word from the books. I have them on Kindle.

 

 

New Spring:

 

Moiraine to Siuan: “I do not know that I can afford a few months..... I am very afraid the Hall means to put me on the Sun throne.... Obviously the Hall thinks I could take the throne without bringing mobs into the street but I do not want to take the chance they are wrong.... What can I do Siuan, I am caught like a fox in a trap....?”

 

Of course she is in line to the throne. Her Uncle was King.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2019 by Ryrin

[Caroline]

This is great, thank you guys for providing such an interesting discussion. There are many details which had slipped my mind. I guess there is no direct reference to Moiraine (not) returning to the White Tower between the events in NS and tEotW, or it would have surfaced by now. The circumstantial tidbits, and speculating about them, are fun, though!

[Ryrin]

1 hour ago, Caroline said:

This is great, thank you guys for providing such an interesting discussion. There are many details which had slipped my mind. I guess there is no direct reference to Moiraine (not) returning to the White Tower between the events in NS and tEotW, or it would have surfaced by now. The circumstantial tidbits, and speculating about them, are fun, though!

It is. Moiraine left the Tower without the Amyrlin’s permission and believed the Hall meant her for the Sun throne. I hardly believe she would risk everything and delay the search for the Dragon to “sneak back” into the Tower. Lan would be difficult to hide as well.

 

[icspots]

No one is disputing your points regarding the circumstances of Moiraine leaving the Tower in NS.  I’m just pointing out there isn’t solid textev that she never returned, and enough other textev to suggest she may have at some point.

[Ryrin]

5 minutes ago, icspots said:

No one is disputing your points regarding the circumstances of Moiraine leaving the Tower in NS.  I’m just pointing out there isn’t solid textev that she never returned, and enough other textev to suggest she may have at some point.

I do not believed she returned nor do I find evidence that she did so. I find it quite the opposite.

 

One may disagree. 

[Sabio]

Once Siuan became Amrylin any fear of Moirane had for being made to take the Sun Throne would be gone.   Aes Sedai come and go from the tower al lthe time, the Amrylin doesn't approve every Aes Sedai who wants to leave.. But the White tower does worry when newly raised Aes Sedai want to run off into the world.  Especaily someone like Casudane would be the type to think you need to spend a lot of time at the WT before venturing out.  

 

Tamra refused to let her leave because she wanted only experienced Aes Sedai on the hunt so she had Siuan and Moiraine doing tasks like getting names of people who gave birth etc.  Once Tamara died Moriane was free of her oath and left as soon as she could.  Once she had been gone for a time its was unlikely anyone would forcer her back.  Especially once Siuan took over.  Also the tower had other things to worry about.  Two Amiylins had died, a lot of older Aes Sedai were dying (by the BA), false dragons appearing etc.  So after a time the fear of being forced back would of been gone.  Was she visting every week of course not, but unlikely in 18 years or so she never visited once.  If for nothing else then to spend few days to catch up on information or to grab an angreal .

[Ryrin]

1. It was Sieran Varys (Amyrlin) who did not let Moraine leave. She was raised to the Amyrlin after Tamra Ospena. 
 

“In fact she was extremely hard and strict as Amyrlin, and imposing strict disciplinary measures on the Tower, even public castigation to many Aes Sedai: she exiled three sisters from the Tower and two more were birched.“

 

 

2. When Moriane met Siuan in Fal Dara they discussed the fact that both the Greens and the Reds wanted Moiraine disciplined with the Greens willing to let the Reds handle it.
 

Why you may ask? They were all aware that Moiraine left the Tower without permission and that she had taken the terangreal with her. They wanted it back. 
 

Moiraine and Siuan also discussed the fact that there were Sisters challenging Siuan’s authority and they would both be stilled and viewed as traitors if their plans became known. Another reason why Moiraine would not have risked returning to the Tower previously.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Ryrin

[icspots]

2 hours ago, Ryrin said:

2. When Moriane met Siuan in Fal Dara they discussed the fact that both the Greens and the Reds wanted Moiraine disciplined with the Greens willing to let the Reds handle it.
 

Why you may ask? They were all aware that Moiraine left the Tower without permission and that she had taken the terangreal with her. They wanted it back.

 

I still don’t see the connection the way you do.  The Hall suggested the discipline for Moiraine not because of the angreal, or because of leaving against the Amyrlin’s orders.  They were suggesting it because of Elaida’s report that Moiraine was meddling with a dangerous ta’veren.  

 

As quoted above, the discussion about punishing Moiraine for that exact reason takes place in a separate chapter, and eight pages before the mention of the angreal.  The angreal is only mentioned as an “oh by the way” when Moiraine brings it up.  

[wotfan4472]

Yeah, I got that as well, that Moiraine did not return to the White Tower after New Spring. This fact plays a part later on, when Galina believed that Moiraine was hiding as a Green Aes Sedai when Elaida's Embassy arrived in Cairhein. Why insist on this? Because the Black Ajah was manipulating the fact once Siuan was deposed, the danger to Moiraine increased. Particularly with the fact that Verin could have revealed what she discovered about Moiraine and Siuan's mission. That the Hall at one point wanted the angreal back and Moiraine was to be punished for leaving the White Tower without permission, plus the revelation that Moiraine was looking for the Dragon this entire twenty years.

The fact that Siuan was supposed to assist as well was what got her stripped of the Stole and stilled in the first place. Regardless whether Siuan removed those charges, Elaida resumed them, based on her knowledge and what Siuan told her when she was questioned by Elaida.

The fact that Moiraine was well aware of this risk to herself was why she did not return to the Tower in the intervening years between New Spring and The Eye Of The World.  Had she gone back to the Tower, she would have been punished by her Ajah Head, or the Hall for the charges that were then issued, even if Siuan objected or not. That would have meant further delays, which meant that the Trolloc attack in the Two Rivers would have gotten Rand, Mat and Perrin either captured or killed. The Shadow was close to getting them, going by the first book. It was just share dumb luck or ta'veren work that Moiraine and Lan were even there a mere one day before that attack happened. That was entirely due to Moiraine searching for twenty years, without a White Tower detour.