Who does the Dark One work for?

[jsbrads]

It just seems encouraging competition among darkfriends will guarantee the Light will always win. 

Also, since time is a cycle, that means the Dark One never wins in the future, because the future is part of the past. 

[Sabio]

The DO can win, RJ has said the DO has never won but that doesn't mean team DO hasn't won the LB before.  As Rand pointed out in  his fight with the DO, victory to the DO is the light giving up hope and basicly begging for mercy.  He wants to crush their spirit and watch them give up.   But what you saw is even if things look hopeless team light was willing to fight to the end.   Even if team DO won on the battlefield, to the DO that isn't victory as long as team Light is willing to sacrifice themselves to stop him.  

[jsbrads]

Confusing battles and wars.

DO was winning battles before Dragon raided in AoL. 

When DO wins, he will destroy the wheel of time.

[Sabio]

No not destroy, remake.  The DO is smart enough to understand if everything and everyone is dead then what good is he?  He would basicly be a god of nothing.  But the DO ultimate goal is to make people lose hope, he doesn't care about the actual fighting, as long as people are fighting he has failed.  

[Zorlon]

On 7/28/2019 at 5:24 PM, Sabio said:

No not destroy, remake.  The DO is smart enough to understand if everything and everyone is dead then what good is he?  He would basicly be a god of nothing.  But the DO ultimate goal is to make people lose hope, he doesn't care about the actual fighting, as long as people are fighting he has failed.  

Are you sure about that though? I could be wrong, I do not have the books on hand at the moment, but if I recall Ishy's ruminations on his board game correctly and if I correctly recall what Jordan said about minor and major wins for the Shadow, then I must conclude that after 50,000 Books worth of trying to break Rand's spirit it was in TGS where the Shadow came closest to a game ending major win as Rand was about to destroy the world with the CK.

 

There have been Dark Ages before, according to Jordan, ages where the Shadow won a minor victory. Presumably like one of the bad worlds Rand was shown. Yet as long as the world is still there things can get better eventually.

 

No comming back from oblivion, at least that was the impression which I got. FWIW Ish also seemed to be of that opinion.

[wotfan4472]

Jordan saying the Shadow winning a minor victory is what happened at the end of the previous Age though. The technological level of the world at that time was completely lost, saidin was tainted, the Breaking had begun and would continue for 300 years. That was actually a minor victory for him. 

 

No matter what happens, if there are people still willing to sacrifice to stop the Dark One, then he loses. How much he loses by depends on what his followers achieve in the time he has access to the world, and how much his influence impacts the world going forwards. Rand's assessment of the Dark One just before re sealing him back up is the correct ultimate purpose of the Dark One and his relationship to the Wheel Of Time and the Pattern. I suspect the Creator also has the same relationship to both as well.

 

Also, to kill the Dark One without destroying Creation with him, the Creator must also be killed at some point during the events. It would be like deciding that if you eliminate Hell, then Heaven must also be eliminated, for exactly the same reason along with all that is associated with both spiritual realms for the reality around them to survive.

Edited July 31, 2019 by wotfan4472

[Zorlon]

13 hours ago, wotfan4472 said:

Jordan saying the Shadow winning a minor victory is what happened at the end of the previous Age though. The technological level of the world at that time was completely lost, saidin was tainted, the Breaking had begun and would continue for 300 years. That was actually a minor victory for him. 

 

No matter what happens, if there are people still willing to sacrifice to stop the Dark One, then he loses. How much he loses by depends on what his followers achieve in the time he has access to the world, and how much his influence impacts the world going forwards. Rand's assessment of the Dark One just before re sealing him back up is the correct ultimate purpose of the Dark One and his relationship to the Wheel Of Time and the Pattern. I suspect the Creator also has the same relationship to both as well.

 

Also, to kill the Dark One without destroying Creation with him, the Creator must also be killed at some point during the events. It would be like deciding that if you eliminate Hell, then Heaven must also be eliminated, for exactly the same reason along with all that is associated with both spiritual realms for the reality around them to survive.

Was it a minor victory though? From what we have been told via Jordan talks and Ishy thoughts a major victory would be the end of all things forever, as almost occured in TGS, as for minor victories again from Jordan talks and Ishy thoughts we know there have been times where the Dragon himself was brought to serve the Shadow.

 

    As sad and bad as the Third Age was, how much worse would it have been if LTT had become the champion of darkness and bent not only his channeling ability but also his special Dragon powers towards that purpose?

 

    In TGH Hawking said there have been countless times he tilted against the Dragon, but frankly I cannot imagine how some bloke with no magic powers and just a fancy sword could win the day and restore the light.

 

In any event though my understanding had always been Ish had the right idea about what was going on and the Shadow sought oblivion, and this was something which could only be attained by having the Dragon will it, again an idea based on both Jordan talks and Ishy's board game ruminations. If you don't know what I refer to I'll dredge up the quotes if you need em.

[wotfan4472]

Except, I suspect that Ishamael says that because he knew he would be Nae'blis. The title Nae'blis locks in the outcomes of the battle if the Dark One wins. The Last Battle had that outcome, because Ishamael was in command.

 

Put Lanfear in that Nae'blis title, and she would rule the world with Perrin her devoted lover. That possibility would still happen, it was just that Moiraine saw that would be the most likely outcome after the docks, but Lews Therin would be in Perrin's place. The Dark One would lock in that result. 

 

He showed Rand the possible outcomes that he showed the Forsaken. We find out during the books Demandred did not care about afterwards, just to kill the Dragon,  Asmodean just wanted to compose music and live forever, Semirhage most likely favored the Blighted world, knowing her pleasures, while all the rest liked the Compassion less world more but would be fine with the Blighted world, or any world the Dark One made, as long as they ruled forever, while Ishamael was the only one of them that favored the Nothing world. 

 

All these outcomes were possible, but the Forsaken that favored any outcome had to be Nae'blis going into the last Battle, and assist the Dark One in defeating the Dragon Reborn. It is how he encouraged the competition between the Forsaken, however, the fight with Rand revealed how he enticed them to fight for him and submit.

[mb]

with time being a cycle, the Light does not ultimately win either.  it is just continuous fighting/battling/etc for both sides.

 

[wotfan4472]

Yes. That is also a part of it. Because the Dark One will never stop fighting.

Incidentally, neither will the Champion of Light. It is just the details of the battles change as each one is fought. We got a glimpse of the far bigger picture with Rand fighting the Dark One directly. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by wotfan4472