Red Ajah Murderers

[Sabio]

Reading the companion, I have to wonder how any of the Red Ajah can consider themselves good people.  

 

1.  Red Ajah held their leader as the equal to the Amyrlin Seat

2. Were told to stop the male channeling program, where men were basicly gentled or killed on the spot.  Many continued to do it.  Secret tower records mentions 2000 men and boys killed, and the companion says that number was too low by a factor of 5 and maybe more.  So looking at least 10,000 men and boys killed.  Yes the BA started it but the Red continued willingly even after the BA stopped.  Many of the victims were killed "trying to escape".

3. Assassinated an Amyrlin Seat in 984 NE who was going to stop the program (Sierin Vayu).  Killed by non BA Aes Sedai (though a BA member (forget her name) claims to of manipulated them to do it)

4. Companion mentions the Red considered seizing power in the tower.

 

Just sounds like they did whatever they wanted and that they were killing people even if they didn't know they could channel or not.  Simply a rumor of being lucky was enough for them to target you.  Just seems for people fighting for the light, they rather easily went about murdering people.  Also seems like the Red thought themselves bigger then the tower.  Curious how murdering an Amrylin seat and breaking tower law and murdering thousands of people doesn't break some oaths.

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Sabio

[TheSociopath]

I believe that the BA member who manipulated them into killing Sierin Vayu was Galina.

Also, if this was over their entire existence, of 3000 years (how long after the breaking was the WT founded?) thats only 3 or 4 a year. The vast majority of the members probably wouldn't have had anything to do with it.

[Sabio]

The male channeling program or what the companion calls the vileness went on from when Gitara Moroso  said the Dragon had been reborn so 978 I believe until 985NE.  So over 10000 people were killed in 7 years.  Now yes the BA had a hand in some of that, but non BA Red's refused to stop and they continued for 2 years after Ishy ordered the BA to stop it.  

[TheSociopath]

That does make it considerably worse.

in fact, it almost seems impossible.

According to the companion, there were 200 hundred members of the Red Ajah during the last battle. Even accounting for Egwene's culling of  the BA, I believe that the books said there were 47 members of the BA in red. So were looking at approximately 250 people killing 1430 people a year for seven years straight. meaning the average red killed 5 or 6 men a year. 

So, about every two months, every red killed someone, on the suspicion of them being a channeler. I think that would be noticed, and mentioned in the books beyond a single line from Cadsuane. The other Ajahs would have to have caught wind of at least a few of these with their eyes and ears.

 

[Orderofolde]

It wouldn't go noticed.  People might remark on men dying suddenly and unexpectedly, their, "luck running out."  With the vile tricks that they had at their disposal it is entirely likely.  Look at the methods of the BA and the other sisters that we see.  Stopping someone's heart, compulsion in varying degrees, people vanishing like novices sent to work on farms and the farm owners which was strange but nothing was done.  People went missing all the time that had no ties to the power, so 10,000 is entirely believable.

[Sabio]

Well in the new spring the tactic was to simply drop them over the side onto buildings below.  The companion did say many died "trying to escape".  So there wasn't a big need for the BA or Reds to hide anything, they simply could say they tried to run for it.  Which makes one wonder if they were intentionally allowed to escape since any non BA Aes Sedai shouldn't be able to lie and say they tried to escape.  Since the BA only knew the Dragon had been reborn, and not when it seems anyone deemed lucky would be targeted and killed.  

 

Most the BA in all Ajah's were involved and most the non BA red.  Seems the Red knew about it and a few didn't take part in it much.  Elaida for instance knew it was going on but only went after Owyn.  It just surprises me with all the non BA reds that knew, how easily they went along with it not to mention assassinating an Amyrlin.

[Jagen Sedai]

Quick correction: It was Chesmal Emry (Black/Yellow) who took claim of goading the Red Ajah into killing Sierin Vayu.

 

I'm gonna address other stuff when I have more time.

[Stevros]

With Relation to this a lot of the early death's in the vileness (admittedly when the BA was behind a lot of it) were paying thugs to take them out. NS Chapter 16:

Quote

Out of Shol Arbela. The luckiest trader in Arafel, they say. Said. Much good it did him. We arrived yesterday, and last night footpads slit his throat two streets over.

 If they were just dishing out money to hitmen then only getting involved in cases where channelling had developed the numbers killed could be very high.

 

That said with these sorts of things the numbers are probably somewhere in between what the official figure said and what the largest claim said it was.

[Jagen Sedai]

Or it could have been made to appear that way. Much better and quieter I would think to do it yourself (as an BA AS) than to pay others to do it. It is quite an interesting possibility, though.

[Forshookt]

Before we all hop in to the "Red Ajah are EVIIIL" wagon let us consider the psychology of the people in the Westlands regarding male channelers. If you lived in a world where a man can suddenly go insane and start rearranging the landscape, you'd be terrified too. Remember, prior to Winter's Heart, a male channeler was 100% certified to do just that. Killing them before that would be considered a kindness, for them and the people around them. If you knew that if you didn't get gentled that you'd slowly rot from the inside while hurling fire at the nearest person and talking to imaginary people, wouldn't you choose death too? 

 

Now its unfortunate that gentling, the less murdery of the options the red have, leads to death anyway, but what choice did they have?

 

The true horror of the vileness was not just the wanton slaughter, but the lack due process. Well, at least from the AS perspective the lack of due process was more vile, because those men were doomed to die anyway. The terrifying part of the vileness for me was how many of those 10,000 were not male channelers.

[Sabio]

It's not the Red finding men who can channel and gentle them, or the justification of why gentling is needed.  It's the Red's breaking their own rules and simply gentling them on the spot without a care in the world and going along with killings of people simply suspected and claiming they tried to escape.  Like the Shaido the Red's seemed to have no trouble breaking traditions and tower rules in the blink of an eye to do what they wanted.  Yes the head of the Red's at the time was BA (who Ishy murdered).  It just seems like the non BA red's fell into the well I was just following the orders of my leader mentality.  After all non BA  Red's murdered an Amrylin because she was going to stop the program.  Yes they were manipulated by the BA at first, but even after the BA stopped, non BA red's continued to do it for a couple more years.  For instance the companion says Elaida didn't take part but knew it was happening,  But she did gentle Owyn on the spot to drive a wedge between Thom and Morgase since Thom had too much influence with the queen.  So it's more of just how easily the Red's decided/justified the simply gentle on the spot against the rules and either kill or turn a blind eye to the killing of innocents.  I know most red's the companion says hate men.  For me though it's one thing hate someone, it's something else to murder or cover up the killings of someone you hate.

Edited April 29, 2018 by Sabio

[agreddon]

Probably the same reason white supremacists consider themselves to be good people.  In their minds,the ends justify the means.  Also, there are probably enough Red Ajah like Pevara to think of themselves more like a check rather than the cause.