Dumais Wells and oaths of fealty

[BFG]

I think I'm the only person that was a little disturbed by Dumais Wells, it's a powerful scene, but I can't say I find it enjoyable

[Visari]

Oh it was disturbing when the Asha’man started making the Shaido ‘splash’ when they lifted the shield. I could understand everyone wanting to vomit at that point.

 

The scope of it all is what I enjoyed. Not necessarily the battle but the suspense of it about to go down. When all the forces are coalescing together. The wolves, the shaido, the Aes Sedai walking into battle and then th Asha’man showing up. It was pretty epic.

[BFG]

Oh it was disturbing when the Asha’man started making the Shaido ‘splash’ when they lifted the shield. I could understand everyone wanting to vomit at that point.

 

The scope of it all is what I enjoyed. Not necessarily the battle but the suspense of it about to go down. When all the forces are coalescing together. The wolves, the shaido, the Aes Sedai walking into battle and then th Asha’man showing up. It was pretty epic.

It's not actually the destruction, to an extent that's expected with battle, it's the 'kneel or you will be knelt'. As a line it changes everything, but the implications are disturbing

[Visari]

 

Oh it was disturbing when the Asha’man started making the Shaido ‘splash’ when they lifted the shield. I could understand everyone wanting to vomit at that point.

 

The scope of it all is what I enjoyed. Not necessarily the battle but the suspense of it about to go down. When all the forces are coalescing together. The wolves, the shaido, the Aes Sedai walking into battle and then th Asha’man showing up. It was pretty epic.

It's not actually the destruction, to an extent that's expected with battle, it's the 'kneel or you will be knelt'. As a line it changes everything, but the implications are disturbing

Honestly, that didn’t bother me a whole lot. By that point I was glad the Aes Sedai were being ‘taken down a notch’ so to speak.

[BFG]

 

 

Oh it was disturbing when the Asha’man started making the Shaido ‘splash’ when they lifted the shield. I could understand everyone wanting to vomit at that point.

 

The scope of it all is what I enjoyed. Not necessarily the battle but the suspense of it about to go down. When all the forces are coalescing together. The wolves, the shaido, the Aes Sedai walking into battle and then th Asha’man showing up. It was pretty epic.

It's not actually the destruction, to an extent that's expected with battle, it's the 'kneel or you will be knelt'. As a line it changes everything, but the implications are disturbing

Honestly, that didn’t bother me a whole lot. By that point I was glad the Aes Sedai were being ‘taken down a notch’ so to speak.

That was my initial reaction lol

[jack of shadows]

@bfg,

 

"it's the kneel or you will be knelt.as a line it changes everything,

but the implications are disturbing."

 

working relationship between rand and the salidar embassy was progressing

nicely as long as merana was in charge,the arrival of verin and alanna changed

the dynamics within the group and eventually destroyed any chance of success.

verin was the main culprit,szilard called verin the true spider of the series,

but she operated more like a snake,she used the attack on demira as an excuse

to usurp control from merana completely,since that moment,things went from bad

to worse,first they tried the mirror of mist,then they tried to bully rand,and to

complicate matters further,bera and kiruna joined the embassy,it was a classic case

of too many bakers spoiling the tiramisu layer cake lol.

 

fast forward to the end of dumai's wells battle,what did you expect would happen

when kiruna met rand?put yourself in the salidar aes sedai shoes and tell me

realisticly,what could they do?they were 9 aes sedai vs 200 asha'man and rand,

the odds were overwhelmingly against them,bear in mind that the working relationship

between the salidar ambassy and rand completely deteriorated even before dumai's wells.

Edited November 5, 2017 by jack of shadows

[Sabio]

Also have to remember Kiruna and Bera showing up also pretty much ruined things as Kiruna and Bera took over the embassy and were the ones who decided to make the embassy follow Rand.  Not to mention Merana (the embassy leader) found herself falling into the Aes Sedai habit of deferring to the Verin, because she was the stronger woman.  It shows the weakness of the Aes Sedai unwrtitten rule of strength in power meant that person was in charge.

[BFG]

Don't get me wrong, Aes Sedai society is deeply flawed and needs to change. And at an individual level the Aes Sedai involved are flawed

 

Abd what happened is more or less foretold so it's not exactly surprising, nor is it surprising in context

 

But fundamentally this is Aes Sedai being ~punished because they're Aes Sedai

 

In the setting we're in fealty isn't unusual, and victors generally get it from the defeated foe, but the salidar Aes Sedai aren't a defeated foe, they were allies. They fought their Sisters to rescue Rand (admittedly with maybe less than pure motives)

 

And fealty from Sisters isn't the same as fealty from someone else, words aren't just words with them. The moral issues with the oaths given to Egwene and by the salidar spies exist here as well

 

And what happens doesn't inherently improve anything, you're replacing one institution that rules through power with another, except the new one gas no experience ruling and is (understandably) inherently untrusting of the old one

 

I guess to an extent you could argue that it shows the strengths of some individual sisters in how they work through it and how much they believe that they are 'servants'

Edited November 5, 2017 by BFG

[jack of shadows]

@bfg,

 

do you remember when rand killed all the trollocs inside the stone of

tear with callandor,moiraine stopped lan from approaching rand?

kiruna(and the rest of them)didn't bother,didn't stop even for one

second to realise how precarious and dangerous the whole situation was,

kiruna assumed that being aes sedai would protect them from anything,

"you forget who we are",unfortunatelly(for them) rand didn't forget anything,

the fact is,the salidar embassy paid a price for their stupidity,all

they had to do was wait a few hours for things to calm down,and then

approach rand,but no,they of course couldn't wait,this aes sedai(typical)

entitlement attitude proved to be their downfall.

one last thing,rand didn't consider the salidar embassy as allies.like

i said in my previous post,even before dumai's wells,they didn't give rand

any reasons to trust them,and perception is everything,especially when you are the boss.

Edited November 5, 2017 by jack of shadows

[Sabio]

Some of the embassy disaster was no one's fault, as the embassy couldn't  predict Verin and Alanna showing up or Kiruna and Bera arriving.  They didn't intentionally make it so 13 Aes Sedai were there thus making Rand so paranoid to where he would leave the city.  What made it worse was Alanna and Verin being there yet had no ties to the rebels or White tower so no one could really tell them what to do.  Kiruna taking charge was the biggest disaster as she was extremely arrogant and was pretty much the wrong person to try and deal with Rand.  She was much too I'm Aes Sedai show me respect and do what I say type to be the one to deal with Rand after what he had just been through.  Had Merana still been in charge she probably would of been a lot more diplomatic with Rand.  I don't necessarily blame all Aes Sedai for it, just Kiruna was already in a bad mood after traveling half way to the waste looking for Rand, she was a noble, and was a very blunt not very diplomatic type.  Once Merana allowed Kiruna to take over, the embassy was doomed.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Sabio

[jack of shadows]

@sabio,

 

"...was pretty much the wrong person to try and deal with rand."

 

i agree with your assessment of kiruna completely,but as bad as kiruna's

behavior was,the real..saboteur was verin,in my opinion,her manipulations

derailed the salidar embassy entirely,bera and kiruna's arrival was just

the final nail in the coffin of an already very dead embassy.

[BFG]

On 05/11/2017 at 11:43 PM, yossicu said:

@bfg,

 

do you remember when rand killed all the trollocs inside the stone of

tear with callandor,moiraine stopped lan from approaching rand?

kiruna(and the rest of them)didn't bother,didn't stop even for one

second to realise how precarious and dangerous the whole situation was,

kiruna assumed that being aes sedai would protect them from anything,

"you forget who we are",unfortunatelly(for them) rand didn't forget anything,

the fact is,the salidar embassy paid a price for their stupidity,all

they had to do was wait a few hours for things to calm down,and then

approach rand,but no,they of course couldn't wait,this aes sedai(typical)

entitlement attitude proved to be their downfall.

one last thing,rand didn't consider the salidar embassy as allies.like

i said in my previous post,even before dumai's wells,they didn't give rand

any reasons to trust them,and perception is everything,especially when you are the boss.

 

This is one of those times when I fundamentally disagree but struggle to explain why

 

You say they weren't allies, but they were. Perrin accepted their help on Rands behalf. And at the start of the battle their help was needed, they didn't know that the Ashaman would turn up and if they hadn't perrin would have lost without their help. Obviously the Aes Sedai weren't all noble, they had good and bad reasons to help, mostly selfish lol

 

And yes it was bad timing, but I don't really agree that's acceptable from a leader, or maybe if you accept that leaders are flawed, it was ~still a ~mistake

 

As I say, fundamentally it's a huge societal structural change, and it's needed, but it gave me chills

 

For all the reasons it's wrong of elaida and egwene to demand fealty of Aes Sedai, it's wrong of Rand, it's effectively a form of compulsion if a very weak version of it and it's enforced by Taim 

 

 

Hmmm, the above makes little sense but I'll think and try to explain what I mean better

[solarz]

On 1/9/2018 at 5:22 PM, BFG said:

 

This is one of those times when I fundamentally disagree but struggle to explain why

 

You say they weren't allies, but they were. Perrin accepted their help on Rands behalf. And at the start of the battle their help was needed, they didn't know that the Ashaman would turn up and if they hadn't perrin would have lost without their help. Obviously the Aes Sedai weren't all noble, they had good and bad reasons to help, mostly selfish lol

 

And yes it was bad timing, but I don't really agree that's acceptable from a leader, or maybe if you accept that leaders are flawed, it was ~still a ~mistake

 

As I say, fundamentally it's a huge societal structural change, and it's needed, but it gave me chills

 

For all the reasons it's wrong of elaida and egwene to demand fealty of Aes Sedai, it's wrong of Rand, it's effectively a form of compulsion if a very weak version of it and it's enforced by Taim 

 

 

Hmmm, the above makes little sense but I'll think and try to explain what I mean better

 

We can debate whether it's morally wrong to force Aes Sedai to swear fealty, but it's hard to argue that it was a mistake for Rand.

 

After all, this gave Rand a core of loyal channelers with which he accomplished a number of key things. He could not have cleansed Saidin, for example, without those loyal Aes Sedai to guard him.

Edited January 11, 2018 by solarz

[BFG]

14 minutes ago, solarz said:

 

We can debate whether it's morally wrong to force Aes Sedai to swear fealty, but it's hard to argue that it was a mistake for Rand.

 

After all, this gave Rand a core of loyal channelers with which he accomplished a number of key things. He could not have cleansed Saidin, for example, without those loyal Aes Sedai to guard him.

 

Except Rand didn't trust them, in that example they were only there because of Cadsuane

 

He didn't know what to do with them, their presence destabilized the aiel (when they thought he was being controlled by them) and in the end handed the Aes Sedai to the wise ones. 

 

They could have been a good resource, but weren't really utilised (maybe the deal with the sea folk?) In the end he trusted the Aes Sedai that he 'knew'; nynaeve, elayne, egwene, moiraine and very few beyond

 

And regardless of how much use they could have been that doesn't necessarily justify the moral problems

 

[solarz]

4 hours ago, BFG said:

 

Except Rand didn't trust them, in that example they were only there because of Cadsuane

 

He didn't know what to do with them, their presence destabilized the aiel (when they thought he was being controlled by them) and in the end handed the Aes Sedai to the wise ones. 

 

They could have been a good resource, but weren't really utilised (maybe the deal with the sea folk?) In the end he trusted the Aes Sedai that he 'knew'; nynaeve, elayne, egwene, moiraine and very few beyond

 

And regardless of how much use they could have been that doesn't necessarily justify the moral problems

 

 

I disagree. Rand trusted them to do what he ordered. Min told him so.

 

Rand trusted Alanna to send her out on some tasks (I forget what). He trusted Merana to make a deal with the Sea Folk.

 

He clearly trusted those AS enough to let them help him with his work.

[BFG]

5 minutes ago, solarz said:

 

I disagree. Rand trusted them to do what he ordered. Min told him so.

 

Rand trusted Alanna to send her out on some tasks (I forget what). He trusted Merana to make a deal with the Sea Folk.

 

He clearly trusted those AS enough to let them help him with his work.

 

He trusted Min though, not the fealty. I guess there's an argument as to whether she'd have had the same viewing without the oath

 

 

[jack of shadows]

@bfg,

"or maybe if you accept that leaders are flawed"

yes,all leaders are flawed,including rand,rand is human and humans make mistakes,but that's not the real issue,the real issue is very bad timing and wrong

approach(like sabio said,kiruna was definitely unsuitable negotiating with rand),

bear in mind that rand was incarcerated in a box,repeatedly and unmercifully beaten for days,kiruna bullish approach only seconds after the battle ended only

infuriated an already furious rand even more,put yourself in rand's shoes and tell

me,would you have done anything differently?could you have done anything differently?moiraine was smart enough to stop lan from approaching rand,kiruna didn't even bother to use her head.

 

"it's effectively a form of compulsion if a very very weak version of it"

no,it wasn't compulsion,not even a light version of compulsion,the salidar aes sedai had a choice,a choice between two extremely bad options,either they stay

on their feet and die or kneel and live,but still,THEY-HAD-A-CHOICE.

 

"in the end he trusted the aes sedai he knew"

true,not only in the end,this was rand's modus operandi from the beginning.

 

"he trusted min though,not the fealty"

true again,rand trusted min arguably more than anyone.

 

@solarz,

"rand trusted alanna"

i don't think so,rand didn't trust alanna,the bond gave rand some..advantages

regarding alanna's state of mind,so he was a little bit more relaxed around her.

[BFG]

@jack of shadows you're not distinguishing between the tower Aes Sedai and the Salidar Aes Sedai. The Tower Aes Sedai locked him in a box and beat him daily. The Salidar Aes Sedai tried to rescue him. I have issues with that oath at all from an Aes Sedai, but can understand it for the Tower Sedai (defeated for that have a lit of power and can't be trusted), but the Salidar Sedai are different (Perrin accepted them as allies) 

 

Effectively you're saying what I started saying, they were being punished because they were Aes Sedai (although you're adding bad timing)

 

And of course Rand's flawed, he's a well written character :P it doesn't make him 'right'

 

And I don't mean they were compulsed to swear, I mean the oath of fealty is a mild form of compulsion. Think what happened to one of the tower ferrets (I forget the name) when they were ordered to lie having sworn to always tell the truth and obey orders.

 

 

[BFG]

Topic split from favourite scenes :)

[BFG]

@jack of shadows to be clear, I don't think you're wrong on any of it, as in yes it was bad timing and rands actions are understandable etc etc etc, it's just still ~wrong, as in rands actions, that oath are fundamentally wrong no matter how understandable it is

[solarz]

On 1/12/2018 at 3:58 PM, BFG said:

@jack of shadows to be clear, I don't think you're wrong on any of it, as in yes it was bad timing and rands actions are understandable etc etc etc, it's just still ~wrong, as in rands actions, that oath are fundamentally wrong no matter how understandable it is

 

Oaths of fealty are meant to be followed. That's why they're oaths. If it's wrong for Rand to require oaths from the Salidar Aes Sedai, then it would be equally wrong for him to require it from, say, the High Lords of Tear.

 

Randland is a feudal society. Oaths of fealty are part of the political process. You might argue that feudalism itself is wrong, but that would be rather irrelevant to the series.

[BFG]

1 hour ago, solarz said:

 

Oaths of fealty are meant to be followed. That's why they're oaths. If it's wrong for Rand to require oaths from the Salidar Aes Sedai, then it would be equally wrong for him to require it from, say, the High Lords of Tear.

 

Randland is a feudal society. Oaths of fealty are part of the political process. You might argue that feudalism itself is wrong, but that would be rather irrelevant to the series.

 

Yes and no

 

My initial posts basically said that I can understand why the Tower Aes Sedai (given the context of a defeated enemy) had to swear, but I don't follow the same reasoning with the Salidar Aes Sedai (essentially allies who fought to rescue him)

 

So while I disagree with the oath from any Aes Sedai I can follow/accept it to an extent in the context of the society and given the power/strength of Aes Sedai it makes logical sense

 

But an oath from an Aes Sedai isn't the same as from someone who hasn't sworn on the oath rod. For example a collared and broken Aes Sedai still cannot use the power as a weapon despite wanting to. The ferret in the Tower was choking when being forced to lie etc. For anyone else it's words that can be broken, obviously their are consequences, but it's regarding future trustworthiness or similar, it's different for an Aes Sedai beyond whether the type of oath itself is acceptable or not

[solarz]

39 minutes ago, BFG said:

 

Yes and no

 

My initial posts basically said that I can understand why the Tower Aes Sedai (given the context of a defeated enemy) had to swear, but I don't follow the same reasoning with the Salidar Aes Sedai (essentially allies who fought to rescue him)

 

So while I disagree with the oath from any Aes Sedai I can follow/accept it to an extent in the context of the society and given the power/strength of Aes Sedai it makes logical sense

 

But an oath from an Aes Sedai isn't the same as from someone who hasn't sworn on the oath rod. For example a collared and broken Aes Sedai still cannot use the power as a weapon despite wanting to. The ferret in the Tower was choking when being forced to lie etc. For anyone else it's words that can be broken, obviously their are consequences, but it's regarding future trustworthiness or similar, it's different for an Aes Sedai beyond whether the type of oath itself is acceptable or not

 

Which is the whole point of the Three Oaths in the first place. Aes Sedai cannot betray their words just as normal people cannot channel. It's meant to be a balance to their power.

 

Think about it this way, what would Rand have done if Aes Sedai were not bound by their oaths? He would not have been satisfied with an oath of fealty then, and would likely have sent the Salidar AS to the Wise Ones along with the Tower AS.

 

For three thousand years the world saw the White Tower as a monolithic entity, and the Tower was careful to cultivate that view. It would have been unrealistic to expect Rand, the Asha'man, or the Aiel, to distinguish between Aes Sedai factions.

 

Like the old saying says, "Aes Sedai do what they do for their own reasons, and those reasons are not what they first seem to be." Rand most likely suspected that those AS might have rescued him from other AS as part of some convoluted plan to put strings on him.

[BFG]

1 hour ago, solarz said:

 

Which is the whole point of the Three Oaths in the first place. Aes Sedai cannot betray their words just as normal people cannot channel. It's meant to be a balance to their power.

 

Think about it this way, what would Rand have done if Aes Sedai were not bound by their oaths? He would not have been satisfied with an oath of fealty then, and would likely have sent the Salidar AS to the Wise Ones along with the Tower AS.

 

For three thousand years the world saw the White Tower as a monolithic entity, and the Tower was careful to cultivate that view. It would have been unrealistic to expect Rand, the Asha'man, or the Aiel, to distinguish between Aes Sedai factions.

 

Like the old saying says, "Aes Sedai do what they do for their own reasons, and those reasons are not what they first seem to be." Rand most likely suspected that those AS might have rescued him from other AS as part of some convoluted plan to put strings on him.

 

The Salidar Aes Sedai did become Wise Ones Apprentices

 

And we're back to being punished because they're Aes Sedai, I don't think Rand thought the Salidar Aes Sedai were working with the Tower Aes Sedai

 

And if you want to judge people by groups; Perrin should never have trusted Galad, the dragonsworn band of the red hand should have been treated the same as the diving bands of murderers, the Salidar Aes Sedai were right to hold Rand responsible for the Aiel attack on them etc etc etc

 

Given Jaks points about situational context that Rand was lashing out it's 'understandable' it wasn't 'right' 

[solarz]

29 minutes ago, BFG said:

 

The Salidar Aes Sedai did become Wise Ones Apprentices

 

And we're back to being punished because they're Aes Sedai, I don't think Rand thought the Salidar Aes Sedai were working with the Tower Aes Sedai

 

And if you want to judge people by groups; Perrin should never have trusted Galad, the dragonsworn band of the red hand should have been treated the same as the diving bands of murderers, the Salidar Aes Sedai were right to hold Rand responsible for the Aiel attack on them etc etc etc

 

Given Jaks points about situational context that Rand was lashing out it's 'understandable' it wasn't 'right' 

 

Yes, apprentices. Meanwhile, the Tower Aes Sedai became da'tsang.

 

The oath of fealty was not a punishment. Punishment does not enter into it. Rand offered the Salidar AS a way to prove that they were not a threat to him. Given what had just happened, he also wasn't about to let them run loose if they refused.

 

Remember that it wasn't the Salidar AS that rescued Rand, it was really the Asha'man and Rand's own actions. The Salidar AS just showed up after the battle *claiming* to have been trying to help. If Perrin had not been there to confirm that story, Rand would very likely have just thrown them together with the Tower AS.