Rand, LTT and the taint

[Phiotr AlManera]

It's my believe that Rand having LTT inside his head is an effect from the taint on saidin. Although this voice has been in a lot of ways helpfull for Rand, it's not normal. Had there been no taint on saidin, I don't think (it's speculation obviously) he would have heard the voice.

The taint doesn't (didn't) cause voices, it causes insanity, in Rand's case, a voice.

 

Any other ideas?

[Beckon]

I think it's because he's LTT reborn. He's not just hearing a random voice he's conversing with LTT. Also, when Rand first begins to notice it, it's because he's remembering things that LTT experienced. For example he remembers what Sammael's real name was even though it's not recorded in any history book. It's more than just a crazy voice in his head.

[DemandredFO]

I saw somewhere, on this board, and I agree that it was as a result of whatever Ishamael did just before Rand killed him. When they were having their fight at the end of tDR Rand feels a ripping and thinks Ishamael is trying to rip his soul out but Rand counters it. My 2cents

[SBoydW]

I would agree with Demandred now that I think about it. That makes a lot of sense. I don't think that the taint could have done this to him. Maybe if it was just the voice, but that voice is teaching him stuff because it is actually LTT.

[Beckon]

Someone here, can't remember who, keeps suggesting that LTT's appearance is connected to Rand trying to harden himself, i.e. that LTT is there to be Rand's emotion since Rand is trying to stifle it. Almost a Sybil multiple personality kind of thing. That kind of intrigues me as it makes sense to a degree.

 

Rand is trying to deny himself, his soul, and be pure cold logic all the time and perhaps that is leaving LTT room to bubble up and try to take over. When Rand can be taught to cry again, accept himself again, then the strength of his soul will push LTT out.

 

Just a thought

[Luckers]

The taint causes a general destabalisation of the mental state. This results in a variety of manifested abnormal psychological functions, including that of hearing voices AND hearing real voices.

 

If the Dragon heard the voices of the previous Dragons, it would have been remarked on in LTT. Lews Therin was not the leader of the light in the Age of Legends because of any prophecy, he was the elected leader of an organisation, and any sign of mental instability would have seen him removed from office. Latra Prosae Decume would have seen to that.

 

As for the suggestions that it was Ishamael... I dont see it. Ishamael tried to destroy Rand, not bring out another aspect of his soul.

[Beowolf]

Well, I believe Rand has a split personality issue(going a bit wacko...), as well as a bunch of leftover memory in his head, from his past life as LTT. "LTT" is an alternate personality of Rand's responding to the "leftover memory". This makes sense with basically every prophecy, as well as anything concerning LTT. It also works with the theory that this is not unique to Rand, but has happened to insane people in the past...

[Paladin]

The insanity theory can explain away a lot of things but there are a few instances where Hearing voices just is not enough to explain away LTT's existence.

 

In TFOH ch 55, Rand & Rhavin are battling it out in TAR.

 

"Good. He stopped at the edge of one of the palace gardens. The roses and whitestar bushes looked as drought bedraggled as they would have in the real palace. On seme of the white spires rising above the rooftops, the White Lion banner rippled, but which spire could change in the blink of an eye. Good, if I don’t have to, share my head with- He felt odd. Insubstantial. He raised his arm, and stared. He could see the garden through coatsleeve and arm as through a mist. A mist that was thinning. When he glanced down, he could see the walk’s paving stones through himself.

No! It was not his thought. An image began to coalesce. A tall, dark-eyed man with a worry-creased face and more white in his hair than brown. I am Lews Ther- I am Rand al’Thor, Rand broke in. He did not know what was happening, but the Faint Dragon was beginning to fade from the misty arm held in front of his face. The arm began to look darker, ‘the fingers on his hand longer. I am me. That echoed in the Void. I am Rand al’Thor.

He fought to picture himself in his own mind, struggled to make the image of what he saw in the mirror every day shaving, what’ he saw in a stand-mirror dressing. It was a frantic fight. He had never really looked at himselfe The two images waxed and waned, the older dark-eyed man and the younger with blue-gray eyes. Slowly the younger image firmed, the older faded. Slowly his arm grew more solid. His arm, with the Dragon twined around it and the heron branded into his palm.

There had been times he hated those marks, but now, even enclosed within the emotionless Void, he almost grinned to see them."

 

Is insanity or hearing voices enough

1) Give LTT such a strong self image that when Rand re-affirms his existance he starts becomming LTT.

2) If there is no LTT in his head, why would Rand, even an insane Rand, want to become someone else?

 

Another thing that for me at least confirms the existence if LTT.

In Winters Heart. In Far Madding.

 

"If you describe these fellows well enough, maybe

we can ask questions. You certainly can't search the whole

city alone."

We are dead men, Lews Therin murmured. Dead men should be

quiet in their graves, but they never are.

Rand barely heard the voice in his head. Suddenly he knew he

did not have to describe Kisman and the others. He could draw

them so well that anyone would recognize the faces. Except, he

had never been able to draw in his life. Lews Therin could,

though. That should have frightened him. It should have."

 

How does someone with no talent for drawing suddenly develop

the ability to draw portraits without any training or effort whatsoever?

How does being insane & hearing voices give you the ability to draw?

 

 

There are other examples but I am not going to list them all here. My personal theory is that LTT is real. Rand needed a teacher, and the patern provided LTT. Unfortonately LTT was driven mad first by the Taint and then by realising that he had killed his entire family.

[Beowolf]

^ With your examples, and even Rand's need for a teacher, LTT can still be an alternate personality of Rand's, respondong to memory from his past life as LTT. Because of those memories, Rand's alternate personality now thinks he is LTT, and can do things like channel old weaves and draw because of the memory in his head. And, like Min said in her viewing, the two are coming together. That's why Rand can draw without passing on control, and why LTT can try to take over. Going a bit further with Min's viewing, it can actually mean that eventually, one of these personalities will take full control, and the other will cease to exist.

[Paladin]

Beowolf, interresting analysis.

So the Memories themselves are real, but Rands insanity created the self aware personality that uses those memories. I never thought of it along those lines.

 

My money is still on LTT being real, but your theory is a valid alternative.

[Phiotr AlManera]

LTT is real, I think that's proven.

Rand is the dragon reborn, wich would mean that Rand and LTT have the same soul. In their lifetimes, they are different persons, with different personalities. In some way now, LTT slipped through.

Birgitte mentions something simular somewhere. She says that in between lifes she stays in TAR. While in TAR she can remember who she is and all her previous lifes. In all her lifes however, while living them, she could not remember.

This is what seems to have gone wrong with Rand then?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Um .... personalities ARE the sum total of memories. If the memories are real (which, given all we've seen, they have to be) then the Lews Therin in Rand's head is the actual person, the dead man, Lews Therin Telamon. The part of the "Dragon" that made Lews Therin different from the "Dragons" before and after him is the part thats residing in Rand's head.

 

This has to do with the difference between a person, and a person's soul, in RJ's conception. He views the "soul" and the "person" as two different things. Much as the same clay could, if used differently, be molded into different kinds of sculptures, so too can the exact same "soul" result in different people, or personalities, every time. At the death of that person, the "soul" is returned to it prototypical state, and awaits rebirth. The "person" becomes separate in some way from the "soul".

 

In Lews Therin's case, probably because of how miserably he believes he failed in death, a part of that "person" refused to separate from the "soul". So, when that "soul" was reborn as Rand al'Thor, Rand was susceptible to having that "person" influence him. When Rand began using tainted saidin, the taint weakened his overall mental state, allowing the "person" who had always been there to emerge into Rand's consciousness.

 

Thats how I see it, anyway.

 

Therefore, if Rand succeeds where Lews Therin failed (ie, Cleanses the Taint [check] and fixes the Bore [still to do]) then Lews Therin won't have any reason to cling to the "soul" anymore, and can fully pass on.

[Beckon]

Just a note because I have a bit of a fascnination with multiple personalities (it's known as Dissociative Identity Disorder now)....

 

It's still disputed whether the disorder actually exists but it's not a psychosis (i.e. insanity), it's a neurosis. A person in the real world with multiple personalities would be considered sane. It's just a really elaborate defense mechanism developed by someone (usually as a child) who's experienced some kind of severe emotional trauma (most often severe sexual abuse).

 

The general idea as I understand it is that everyone dissociates. Ever been driving somewhere, a trip that you make often, and you get to your destination and have no memory of the actual journey? That's dissociation. For someone who is a multiple they've just honed that art to such a great degree that even with their subconscious mind in control they appear to be functioning normally as opposed to being "spaced out" as someone without the disorder would seem.

 

The core personality though has no memory of what they did while the other(or others) was running things; they're only one to whom it seems that they "spaced out". MPD or DID whichever you want to call it, doesn't manifest itself as voices in your head, that's more along the lines of schitsophrenia(sp?) which I believe is a psychosis.

 

I think LTT is a completely unique phenomena, the link between the original Dragon and the prophesied one. Other male channelers don't seem to be able to carry on conversations with their previous incarnations (in WOT everyone is reborn just not taveren every time like Rand and the heroes of the horn). If it were as simple as that there'd be other examples of it manifesting that way.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well ... its a little innaccurate to put our world's definitions to some phenomena in a fantasy story. After all, Rand has spoken with dead people other than the ones in his head, and they are quite real in the story. A psychiatrist would have Rand heavily medicated after hearing the story of Falme.

 

Whats happening with Rand and Lews Therin is not precisely like either DID or schizophrenia, and the people of Randland (Graendal and Semirhage possibly excepted) don't differentiate between neuroses and psychoses and various other forms of mental illness.

 

The taint does not seem to cause any specific kind of insanity, it simply makes the user more prone to the kinds of insanity that already occur. In Rand's case, the potential to hear Lews Therin's voice was probably there from his birth. All the taint did was erode Rand's mental strength so he would succumb to it.

 

This is, of course, all just opinion. Until we see how (or if) Rand gets rid Lews Therin, we won't really know. Even then, RJ may have to explain it some more, if he feels like it, for us to understand.

[Karthak]

Didn't Semirhage at the end KOD state that Lews Therin was real?

[Phiotr AlManera]

Thats how I see it, anyway

I agree with that but not with your

Therefore, if Rand succeeds where Lews Therin failed (ie, Cleanses the Taint [check] and fixes the Bore [still to do]) then Lews Therin won't have any reason to cling to the "soul" anymore, and can fully pass on.

I do think it is an insanity wich is getting worse, as Semirhage said. Graendal had investigated and treated others who heard 'real' voices so I don't think Rand is unique here with his 'real' voice.

a psychosis and a neurosis

This is an old classification, it isn't really used anymore except by a few psychoanalysts.

I'd go with this

Well ... its a little innaccurate to put our world's definitions to some phenomena in a fantasy story.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I do think it is an insanity wich is getting worse, as Semirhage said. Graendal had investigated and treated others who heard 'real' voices so I don't think Rand is unique here with his 'real' voice.

 

I agree that it is getting worse. But its a classic case of haunting. In hundreds of "ghost stories" and various myths and fairy tales, ghosts cling to this world because they left something undone, or had some injustice perpetrated against them. Whatever it is, they stayed for a reason.

 

Thats why Graendal wouldn't be able to have much success in reintegrating people with the condition. Its not suceptible to normal medications or psychotherapies. The only way to fix it is to fix the problem, and most people can't fix the problems that their past self had. Rand is fortunate in the sense that he has a chance to fix the problem, and so get rid of Lews Therin.

 

Of course, fixing the problem is going to involve dying, and coming back, or being alive and dead at the same time. While they are both dead (Rand and Lews Therin) it should be relatively easy for Lews Therin to let go.

 

This is entirely speculative, and could be completely wrong. Its just one situation that seems to fit the situation as I see it.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Good points, hadn't considered it like that.

 

However, I don't really see LTT disappearing. I don't think it would be compatible with the 'contamination' of the taint on Rand.

[Luckers]

Didn't Semirhage at the end KOD state that Lews Therin was real?

 

No, she stated that he WAS real.

 

Well ... its a little innaccurate to put our world's definitions to some phenomena in a fantasy story.

 

Not really... real life psychology deals with recognising and treating symptoms. Theoretically its perfectly possible to analyse an imagined abnormal psychological state. It might even add pleasure to the suspending of reality--which is, after all, the goal of all fiction.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not really... real life psychology deals with recognising and treating symptoms. Theoretically its perfectly possible to analyse an imagined abnormal psychological state.

 

Except that the treatment of symptoms has to derive from an understanding of the underlying causes. And the "science" of our current world would not even truly consider the possibility of an actual persona from a previous life manifesting within a living person. So tagging such a potential condition from a fictional work with a diagnosis based on our modern criteria is, at best, innaccurate.

[Luckers]

No offence to anyone, but having studied psychology i am convinced it is a witch-science more convinced with maintaining the sanctity of its discapline then examining the true reality of its teachings. Yes, i think its has made any number of innovations, and observed and recorded any number of psychological functions that are truly fascinating... but between the strong indoctrinatory effects of the training, and the inherent arrogance present throughout the psychological discapline... well, assuming a total knowledge of underlying causes strikes me as fictional, irrespective of actual reality vs. fiction.

 

The reality is that psychology has an excellent paradigm established for the examination of the mental state... the truths it draws from that examination are, however, suspect. Therefore the examination of a fictional character is valid--especially one in a world whose author ascribes to the philosophy that if you are asking a reader to believe a fiction, then you'd best make everything else as real as possible....

 

Moreover, there is wiggle room in that whilst Rands psychological state is fiction, RJ's is not. And RJ's establishment of a character would be based on his inherent understanding of the human condition.

 

As i said... the annalysis of a character is not nessasarily the function of a mind that is too absobed in a fictional reality, but rather a method of gaining new, and exciting meaning from the text--effectively increasing the overall experience of the fictional reality. Indeed, the postmodernists would argue that this flexibility of interpretation, and this ability for a story to gain new life, and new reality depending on the individual witnessing it is the main reason we as humans look to the arts. Especially since the actual real world is so much a construct of our imaginations.

[Beckon]

Well ... its a little innaccurate to put our world's definitions to some phenomena in a fantasy story. After all' date=' Rand has spoken with dead people other than the ones in his head, and they are quite real in the story. A psychiatrist would have Rand heavily medicated after hearing the story of Falme.

 

Whats happening with Rand and Lews Therin is not precisely like either DID or schizophrenia, and the people of Randland (Graendal and Semirhage possibly excepted) don't differentiate between neuroses and psychoses and various other forms of mental illness.

 

The taint does not seem to cause any specific kind of insanity, it simply makes the user more prone to the kinds of insanity that already occur. In Rand's case, the potential to hear Lews Therin's voice was probably there from his birth. All the taint did was erode Rand's mental strength so he would succumb to it.

 

This is, of course, all just opinion. Until we see how (or if) Rand gets rid Lews Therin, we won't really know. Even then, RJ may have to explain it some more, if he feels like it, for us to understand.[/quote']

 

I'm not saying real world rules should apply to Randland. RJ is afterall an auther and he can make his world do whatever he wants. I'm just saying I don't think the voice is a manifestation of the taint or the insanity caused by the taint. As you said, his mental instability is perhaps the reason it's such a struggle for Rand to keep LTT from completely taking over. I just don't think there's a direct cause/effect relationship between the two as some are saying.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And RJ's establishment of a character would be based on his inherent understanding of the human condition.

 

Except that humans can access and weave the Power that drives time .... talk to dead people .... etc etc.

 

There are definitely variables in RJ's imagination that don't exist in the real world, especially in the influences that contribute to Rand's mental state. So any diagnosis from this world is bound to be at a minimum, incomplete, which in the world of diagnosis and treatment, is inaccurate.

 

I totally agree that psychology is a "pseudo-science". All talk therapy depends on cognitive methods, which cannot be quantified, and therefore cannot have the scientific method applied to them.

 

Psychiatry could become a true science in the future, if our understanding of human brain chemistry becomes sufficient. But frankly, that would terrify me, and I don't think it will ever happen.

 

As i said... the annalysis of a character is not nessasarily the function of a mind that is too absobed in a fictional reality, but rather a method of gaining new, and exciting meaning from the text--effectively increasing the overall experience of the fictional reality.

 

I've always felt that this was a dangerous trend in literary criticism. Meaning achieved from a fantastical situation, rather than a merely fictional situation, can be .... less than reliable in truly realistic, much less actually real, situations. As a purely mental exercise its fine, but humans are really bad at making anything purely mental.

[Phiotr AlManera]

Wow, had to read that a few times Luckers.

 

A very specific feature of fantasy-fiction lies in the fact that the author makes up things. This means that the reader is very dependant of the authors explanation. You know, if RJ says something, then it's like that. The succes of this forum can be a bit explained by this.

 

I'd say the mental situation of Rand is an example of this. I just think RJ made up 'new' or fantasy physics here.

 

I'm just saying I don't think the voice is a manifestation of the taint or the insanity caused by the taint.

Well, saidin had a taint, Rand channeled saidin.

Channeling tainted saidin causes insanity, Rand hears a voice.

Any explanation wich says that voice isn't connected to the taint goes a bit against logic.

 

btw just discovered you can't post a reply wich has the word 'sh*t' in it, it get automaticly replaced :(

[Paladin]

Well, saidin had a taint, Rand channeled saidin.

Channeling tainted saidin causes insanity, Rand hears a voice.

Any explanation wich says that voice isn't connected to the taint goes a bit against logic.

 

According to that logic:

 

saidin had a taint, Fedwin Morr channeled saidin.

Channeling tainted saidin causes insanity, Fedwin Morr's mind reverted to that of a 5 year old.

Rand must have the mind of a 5 year old.

 

OR

 

saidin had a taint, new student at Black Tower channeled saidin.

Channeling tainted saidin causes insanity, new student started screaming that spiders were under his skin after two days.

Rand must believe that he has spiders crawling under his skin.

 

The taint causes insanity.Is Rand totally sane? Probably not.

Does that mean that LTT has to be part of his insanity. no. In RJ's world it could very well be an insane former dragon speaking to Rand.

At the end of the day, no matter how much we debate this. If we find the truth the only reason that would matter is : 'cos RJ said so.