The Unifying Model of Aes Sedai Social Ranking

[E James Todd]

Hello all!  I was reading through the WoT Companion as commentary to my second read of the series, and became curious as to the variance within the White Tower in regards to the Aes Sedai's strange multifaceted social ranking.  Here's where I got in pursuit of that.

 

The premise

When I started thinking about the Tower in Exile, I realized that there must be some pretty impressive recall going on to remember which Aes Sedai stood where within their internal ranking.  The original thought came when I read through the first meetings of the Hall in Salidar, but then expanded to include the normal sisters as well.  I know there are explanations given both in the Companion and elsewhere to explain how the ranking and deference works, but aside from saying "these are the guidelines the Aes Sedai use" I have yet to find one single source to put these disparate factors together.

 

The project

This realization tripped me into a rabbit hole during which I disappeared from the world for two straight months.  I compiled as comprehensive and exhaustive a list as I could from every named Aes Sedai within the main 14-book storyline, detailing as much information as I could pertaining to the factors in the social ranking.  This done to the best of my limited ability, I considered the weight of each of the three listed factors in the Companion – strength in the One Power, time spent as novice & Accepted, and age; I added in "social position" to account for the higher standings of Sitters, the Amyrlin Seat, and certain Cadsuane-like Cadsuanes – and compiled them together into a mathematical expression taking all those things into account.  I then compiled a second formula for Sitters to show the internal politics within the Hall of the Tower, which function on different factors because of course they do – chiefly age and term of their Sitting, but as this got into some messes with the Salidar Hall I threw in the time as novice/Accepted factor to act as a determinant.

 

The request

What I have is incomplete, as not all Aes Sedai have the same amount of information available on them; but more importantly I consider it incomplete because I only have myself working on this project.  I would greatly appreciate it if there were some mathematically- and analytically-minded users who could look at what I have so far, help me refine it, and (where needed) update the raw database I have.  My findings are currently in a Google Spreadsheet which I will happily share with those who want to help, and once it's done I would like to share the finished product with the community as a whole.  Just shoot me a PM, and I can add people to the document.

 

***

 

So is anyone interested?

[DojoToad]

Not having seen what you put together, my mind is already spinning.  Don't think I'm the one to help but I wish you luck on the project.

[Orderofolde]

Wow, there are so many factors to consider, and you hit on most of them, but then there were several delegations/missions sisters were sent on where little of that mattered because a Red headed up a party here or there going to the Black Tower, or a Gray was put above others, or the girls were raised by Elayne but still Vandene and her sister and the others didn't recognize their authority until much later in Ebou Dar.  There were a lot of factors at work to their hierarchy system.  Mostly they seemed to serve as guidelines more than rules, with a few strict things like not addressing a sister's age or messing with her warder as being almost law.  And RJ even kept changing up the levels of power and used a few different versions and couldn't keep things straight between changing his mind on things or fleshing ideas out fully as the books progressed.  Good luck with your undertaking!

[E James Todd]

Since most interest seems to be in viewing, I'm going to make the prototype available to people here via an open link:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hO5a0GWCeHweeZA55L7wA6GH-mWASSchlpxQSXBqTAs/edit?usp=sharing

 

Feel free to leave commentary, thoughts, suggestions, etc. here in the thread.  I will read through anything someone leaves and implement it, so long as it's not "this needs more kitties" or "y u do this nub"

 

Thank you all for taking interest.

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Wow, there are so many factors to consider, and you hit on most of them, but then there were several delegations/missions sisters were sent on where little of that mattered because a Red headed up a party here or there going to the Black Tower, or a Gray was put above others, or the girls were raised by Elayne but still Vandene and her sister and the others didn't recognize their authority until much later in Ebou Dar. There were a lot of factors at work to their hierarchy system. Mostly they seemed to serve as guidelines more than rules, with a few strict things like not addressing a sister's age or messing with her warder as being almost law. And RJ even kept changing up the levels of power and used a few different versions and couldn't keep things straight between changing his mind on things or fleshing ideas out fully as the books progressed. Good luck with your undertaking!

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Their system was pretty simple to me.... OP strength first, then length of time in training, and finally age, unless you are a Sitter or Ajah head, then that fact gets first consideration. Also, if you are part of an embassy or other group, the leader is appointed by the Amrylin. Winter's Heart is the book that clued me in to the inner workings....One of the things RJ points out several times in this book is the fact that no one really understands how the Aes Sedai rank themselves, so it was interesting watching the Sea Folk women trying to puzzle out who was in which camp and who followed who's lead.

[Niniel]

I started to do a list like this many years ago but never finished it. This must have taken some time.:)

[Wheel of Thyme]

This has already been done by the folks who run the WOT blog The 13th Depository. http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

[E James Todd]

While the Thirteenth Depository's list does rank overall strengths of the various channelers, and indeed while there are several other lists that do the same thing, that was not my intent with this formula. I didn't want to rehash what had already been done and codified in a much more official and professional capacity than what I could hope to do; rather, I sought to create a shorthand expressly for the social rankings of the Aes Sedai within the White Tower. This is why, in the later sheets within my document, I cut out the other channelers I had initially included, as even I had trouble sticking to my original purpose. The Thirteenth Depository et al. do a spectacular job at ranking strengths of channelers across the collected work; I'm simply trying to approach the social aspect within the Aes Sedai specifically.

[E James Todd]

I started to do a list like this many years ago but never finished it. This must have taken some time.:)

Yes. This is about ten weeks' worth of not seeing another human soul inside the rabbit hole ;)

[Kesiera_Sedai]

Hello all! I was reading through the WoT Companion as commentary to my second read of the series, and became curious as to the variance within the White Tower in regards to the Aes Sedai's strange multifaceted social ranking. Here's where I got in pursuit of that.

 

The premise

When I started thinking about the Tower in Exile, I realized that there must be some pretty impressive recall going on to remember which Aes Sedai stood where within their internal ranking. The original thought came when I read through the first meetings of the Hall in Salidar, but then expanded to include the normal sisters as well. I know there are explanations given both in the Companion and elsewhere to explain how the ranking and deference works, but aside from saying "these are the guidelines the Aes Sedai use" I have yet to find one single source to put these disparate factors together.

 

The project

This realization tripped me into a rabbit hole during which I disappeared from the world for two straight months. I compiled as comprehensive and exhaustive a list as I could from every named Aes Sedai within the main 14-book storyline, detailing as much information as I could pertaining to the factors in the social ranking. This done to the best of my limited ability, I considered the weight of each of the three listed factors in the Companion – strength in the One Power, time spent as novice & Accepted, and age; I added in "social position" to account for the higher standings of Sitters, the Amyrlin Seat, and certain Cadsuane-like Cadsuanes – and compiled them together into a mathematical expression taking all those things into account. I then compiled a second formula for Sitters to show the internal politics within the Hall of the Tower, which function on different factors because of course they do – chiefly age and term of their Sitting, but as this got into some messes with the Salidar Hall I threw in the time as novice/Accepted factor to act as a determinant.

 

The request

What I have is incomplete, as not all Aes Sedai have the same amount of information available on them; but more importantly I consider it incomplete because I only have myself working on this project. I would greatly appreciate it if there were some mathematically- and analytically-minded users who could look at what I have so far, help me refine it, and (where needed) update the raw database I have. My findings are currently in a Google Spreadsheet which I will happily share with those who want to help, and once it's done I would like to share the finished product with the community as a whole. Just shoot me a PM, and I can add people to the document.

 

 

***

So is anyone interested?

[Kesiera_Sedai]

I am definitely interested...I've always been keen on spreadsheets, graphs, etc.

[E James Todd]

I am definitely interested...I've always been keen on spreadsheets, graphs, etc.

Excellent!  Here's the link:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hO5a0GWCeHweeZA55L7wA6GH-mWASSchlpxQSXBqTAs/edit?usp=sharing