I had responded to this post earlier but got a Bad Gateway request! I think it's a very fair post, however I'm not sure that they did not want to follow the books more, I think given the choice any fan of the books (which Rafe is) would want to ensure as much faithfulness to the source material as would be possible. But to answer your final point on the reasoning, much of Rafe's comments around creating the adaptation has focussed on telling the story of WoT in it's entirety. Even his post addressing the cancellation of the show mentions this - "One of my core goals in making this show, even from the earliest crafting of the pitch, has been to tell the whole story". I think they took the view in adapting the books that they needed to lay groundwork for the epic conclusion of WoT very early on. That meant showing us a lot more Aes Sedai politicking for example than we got in the books, or at least showing it "on screen". We see a lot more of the internal Aes Sedai divisions, and establishing how the White Tower would come to try and cage the Dragon for example, setting up Dumai's Wells in future. The Stepin episode was clearly to set up what happens to a Warder when their Aes Sedai dies - potentially establishing the danger for Rand further down the road. I think this driving factor really was behind the vast majority of adaptation choices, in that they were trying to make sure that the ending would really "land" so to speak. However, I think they may have gotten a bit lost in that big picture thinking and didn't spend as much time establishing the characters which drive the entire story. I said in the show cancellation thread that I think the big picture focus is good generally, they have to get across so much in the world of WoT in a limited time, so spreading the love is a good idea. And I liked things like the Stepin episode as a bottle episode almost, to show TV audiences how the Warder bond functions. However, given the choice to establish the EF5 more versus what was a very good episode on it's own, I would choose the former, especially early in the show. As it was, while the show improved and S3 was the best so far, I still think it suffered from not developing our main characters. I think very often they spread their focus too thinly and it was no coincidence in my view that the highest highs of the show was when they spent time on one character or story - Rhuidean, Nynaeve's Accepted Test, Egwene with the collar. Funnily enough, considering the issues they had with the casting, one of the best developed characters for me was Mat, as I felt it was clear what they were doing with his arc of being a reluctant hero. Just like the other characters though, I wish we had more time with him.

I think there is some unfair commentary and comparisons in here. Andor sits within an incredibly well established universe. Anyone with a passing interest in movies understands Star Wars and the general feel of that universe. There is very little world-building that needs to be done for a show like Andor. However it is very clear to me that Andor had more talented writers than WoT - or, at least, Tony Gilroy had more absolute control over the story of Andor than Rafe did over WoT. Disney obviously trusted Gilroy to tell the story in whatever way he saw fit, even though they shortened the seasons available to him from 5 to 2. I am not sure that Rafe had as much leeway from Prime studios, considering the stories around studio notes received on a single episode etc. There is a consistency in story-telling in Andor, and a depth to the writing, that is rarely present in WoT. I am not absolving Rafe and the creators from all blame here. But - and I may be repeating myself from discussions going all the way back to Season 1 - I really really dislike seeing commentary around WoT that describes the motivations behind creating the show as "they wanted to tell their own story" "they don't like the source material", "they had an agenda" "they hated the fans" and that general tone. We can debate all day long about how the adaptation worked and didn't work, but I really don't understand seeing interviews with Rafe in particular and thinking "this man hates Robert Jordan's books". It's clear to me he loves the story and world of WoT, and tried to adapt it as best he could with his own creative ideas on how to do so. That doesn't make him someone with sinister, selfish motivations. It just makes him an artist who loves WoT, maybe not in the exact same way that I love WoT, but that's fine, that's what art is all about really.

The series made me think a lot about the source material actually, more than I had in years. I am planning a re-read when winter comes and the weather turns. I remember a really good discussion with another poster about Veins of Gold, prompted by Tam’s explanation of the Wheel in episode 1. I was quite excited by that explanation and how it could pull Rand back for Veins of Gold, whereas the other poster felt it might simplify that later scene if they just rely on Rand’s relationship with Tam. I appreciated it and it gave me a new perspective on VoG. I also came to appreciate other characters like Perrin a bit deeper - it may seem silly to some but I never really thought too deeply about his Wolfbrother “violence” as a contrast to the Tuatha’an. I always felt his inner conflict was the axe - what he had to do in his new life as ta’veren and leader, versus the hammer - the simpler life he yearned for before Winternight. Violence was a part of this struggle of course but I never thought too much about the Tinkers as a contrast until the show came out and discussing it here. I also enjoyed thinking about the adaptation choices, and it was cool to see what people felt was absolutely core to the story against my own thoughts on it.

lots of discussion here but for what it's worth I re-watched S1 & S2 recently, while waiting for new episodes to drop for S3, and I was surprised by how much I still enjoyed S1 (up to episode 6). Yes there are changes and the opening to the show was really bad, I hated the Dragon "mystery" and the Leavetaking scene was terribly done as well - but I found myself still enjoying the majority of episodes once they got "on the road" so to speak. S2 was much more disappointing overall to me, apart from one or two excellent scenes and episodes.

It’s an incredibly frustrating platform to use as well. I’m a big fan of Invincible but had no idea there was a new series out until months after it had aired. Without a doubt the worst streaming service for me

I think the focus on the “Dragon could be a woman” thing is a bit misguided - the issue in S1 was that the Dragon was a mystery - because they did not execute the mystery plot well and in doing so all the characters suffered in S1. My frustration generally with the show has been a lack of depth and very inconsistent writing. I remember Rafe commenting about the Dragon being a woman line, saying that they felt for the show they could introduce the idea that the prophecies are not so certain, that Aes Sedai knowledge was not so reliable. I thought this was a great idea with potential in television, with Black Ajah shenanigans and Verin especially becoming a key character with her Brown knowledge and true identity. But it was a comment in an interview, and nothing within the show really felt like this was something being truly explored, at least to me. When you look at the writing in Andor, and how for example the Ghorman plot in S2. Without spoilers but I was more invested in this Star Wars planet and their culture and story in 6 episodes than really anything the WoT show achieved in 3 seasons. Rhuidean was the closest really. WoT always felt spread too thin in each series, and it’s no coincidence in my opinion that the strongest scenes and episodes are those that focus in on particular characters or arcs. Again, sad to see it cancelled. Josha became Rand to me, and I love Zoe as Nynaeve as well.

I’m happy for you that you’re so energised to go on and on about it, but I don’t have the energy to repeat what I’ve said on these pages since S1. so if you’re interested go through my post history but otherwise let’s leave our interactions on this point there

Pretty disappointing to see tired old arguments about woke-ism and Rafe’s sinister motivations in here. You can just dislike the show without descending into petty point scoring or revelling in the show being cancelled. I thought they had definitely found their footing and had really begun to focus properly on Rand’s story in S3. There are lessons in these 3 seasons for people looking at adaptations. Choices were made to sustain a vasts world across at least 8 seasons (per Rafe’s quotes about the absolutely minimum time needed to tell the story). However in hindsight, I think you would move things around a bit. Keep the world and story focussed and tight in S1, and expand things out bit by bit. I think they should have focussed on the EF5 almost exclusively in S1 with Moiraine’s leadership, and bring in the Tower politics and Warder bonds in S2. Abandon the Dragon “mystery” and let the EF5 breathe and develop on their own. The EF5 too often felt sidelined to me in that first season. I think it’s right to spread the focus, but maybe they did it too soon? On the flipside of this, I rewatched S1 recently and in my view it actually holds up quite well until they go to the Blight and the COVID impacted episodes occur. Even then, Rand and Ishy at the Eye, with the possible futures, was the best part of the finale. But I just felt the show was hampered by some of its own decisions really. I’m sad it’s cancelled. I think they casting wad excellent and I suppose we’ll always have Rhuidean

I don't really have anything to add around the discussion of Rand's dreams / Lanfear / Egwene, but I want to say that reading through the last few pages has made me rethink that whole triangle in the show which I'm on record as saying I really really disliked. I still don't like it and wish the show spent more time on other areas, but it's been interesting to read through the discussion and seeing those scenes in a different light.

I thought Elaida looked very slightly uncomfortable in that final scene with Siuan. I think as @Elder_Hamansays, she doesn't care for the truth, only that her goal of deposing Siuan and becoming Amyrlin is coming true. But in that scene there are a couple of shots of her close up where there are flashes of doubt in my opinion. Now that she's successful, I'm sure she can tell herself a different story to make the actions against Siuan completely justified

I liked in S1 how they just showed Rand and Egwene kissing and the next scene the understanding is there with what's happened. I don't really want to see anything like GoT for example, I find it very gratuitous and OTT. By the same token the romance/passion in most sex scenes is not particularly engaging, but that might just be because I never believed Lanfear and Rand in any of those scenes, so I just wanted to move on. Romance generally in the show, I've liked how they have done Nynaeve and Lan, and Perrin and Faile (though the kiss was a little rushed I thought). I'm happy enough if the show want to stick what they did in S1 with Rand and Egwene to be frank.

Just before Rand and Moiraine's scene, before Alcair Dal, Rand is staring off into the distance and a figure appears. Lews Therin?

I don't really see how Sammael should be kept. He was such a damp squib in the books for me and like I mentioned, I didn't really like this actor for him in the show, so I'm quite happy he's gone. Would I have preferred a cool fight with Rand, sure - but the way Rand took him out actually sort of hit home how powerful Rand is and how weak Sammael is in comparison (imo). A bit of a joke figure, even among the Forsaken. I'm hopeful that Rahvin will be much more of a serious threat for Rand. Moggy in the show is brilliant and I'm glad she seems to be more of a threat to the other Forsaken here - I'd have loved another mini-stand off with Nynaeve in the finale, but I expect it will be coming next season (if we get there). I generally agree with @jh557, I think I have also said it before but the show feels like it's great in some moments, solid and good in others, outright bad for other moments - and that inconsistency just frustrates me and I'm just left feeling that it isn't quite as good as it could or should be. That breakdown of the Mo and Lanfear stand-off gets to the crux of why I felt so meh about it all as well. I do think the writers' have shown an understanding of a lot of the key themes of WoT, they have done a lot of good foreshadowing for big moments further down the line imo - however unfortunately for me they have made a litany of missteps and poorly thought out decisions that have left the show feeling more hollow than it really should. I think Nynaeve sums it up as well. I love Zoe Robins representation of her, I thought she was easily the best part of S1, her episode in the Arches in S2 one of my favourites as well, but essentially since she got to Falme she has been poorly handled outside of small character moments and resisting Moggy's compulsion. What made Nynaeve awesome to me was even with her block she was capable, and they even showed that in S1 with her tracking Lan and Moiraine etc. But it seems like in the show as soon as she realised she has a block, she can't do anything. It's disappointing. However what I do keep telling myself is that the show certainly seems to be working for show-only people. My girlfriend is invested in it, she doesn't think it's amazing but there are bits of the show where I'm quite surprised at how well it lands for her.

In the English subtitles in the cold open of this episode, Alviarin says Aelfinn.

It was certainly a better finale than the first two seasons imo, but the big moments in the Waste fell very flat for me unfortunately. I think it was @SinisterDeath that said Siuan's final speech went on too long/took away from Rand a little at the end? I agree with that, it was a good end for Siuan but I wasn't sure about it overlapping with the other scenes. Really, I feel like they needed the events of this episode to be spread across two episodes. Tanchico was the best part for me, but it all felt like such a whirlwind. I found the "trap" for Lanfear very strange and Egwene's development in the dreamworld very OTT - why wouldn't the Wise Ones be there to help fight Lanfear in the Dream? The Wise Ones really have become totally sidelined after a strong start to the season. I also just didn't enjoy Moiraine v Lanfear at all to be frank, I didn't like the setting out in a random part of the desert (it seemed), and Lan not being there was just a weird choice. I also felt myself nitpicking at those scenes - why would Lanfear believe Lan is dead, surely she would know about the bond at this stage even if she didn't fully understand it? And what benefit did that "surprise" really have? I'll need to rewatch the episode but I came away from all of the Lan and Moiraine and Lanfear scenes just "meh" about it. I like how they have really established Rand and Egwene coming apart in this season, it sets things up well for further down the road (if we ever get there). But something about Alcair Dal just didn't work for me. Rand vs Couladin felt very forced or something, I'm not sure, something was off. But as was mentioned in the thread, this could be a scene that simply works much better on the page than on screen. I am more convinced now than ever that the plan is to have Asmodean in S4 if they get there. They have planted the seed of a Forsaken teaching Rand for show-only watchers. I'm also quite glad Sammael is dead as I wasn't really a fan of that actor. The Eelfinn was definitely strange to look at, sort of cartoon-ish but the creepiness of the scene sort of overtook any initial misgivings I had about the actual look (although whoever called it Dr. Seuss-like - I will not be able to get that out of my head now haha!). I thought it was well done as a scene, and my girlfriend was like "what the FFFF" the whole time haha. Overall I thought it was fine, I think just the stuff in the Waste not landing for me has left me a bit disappointed with the episode, but will give it a rewatch at some stage over the next few days.

I’m a bit confused what you’re trying to say. All stories are contrived so why complain about contrivances? Sorry if I’m picking you up wrong.

Is having her impaled or riddled with arrows the only way to remove her from battle? Why is she too powerful and needs to be removed? There are no negative repercussions to a woman channeling non-stop apparently (even though as I already said, they established those dangers in the S1 finale, and with Moiraine unable to continue channeling when the Trollocs are chasing them before Shadar Logoth), so she needs to be severely injured to remove her from the battle. These issues are all connected for me. If the only solution to remove her from battle that they can come up with is "let's impale her through the chest!" then I don't have much positive to say about that writing to be frank. Even if we give them the grace and say that that does work, it doesn't really explain the other ridiculous injuries and insta Heals. There is no purpose to having Liandrin stabbed like she was. It's faux drama and frankly ridiculous. My partner laughed out loud at it, like it was slapstick comedy. Nynaeve was stabbed how many times by Shadowspawn, and is fine? What purpose does that have? I would have believed the seriousness of that attack with a single wound! Maybe we just won't agree, and that's fine too. I can appreciate it doesn't bother other people as much and if I focus too much on it myself it starts souring things for me a little bit 😅 it's just one aspect of this season that has really annoyed me, but I like S3 overall so I'm just going to fast-forward through those scenes now like I said.

I think it's obvious at this point how much I dislike the Healing and OTT injuries in the show, but a wilder instinctively creating a shield is very on-brand for WoT (both books and show). I can even allow for the Cauthon girls being able to Heal Alanna in ep6 with this idea in mind, but what I didn't like about that scene was it felt less about need and instinct, and more like they were being taught how to do this very complex thing very quickly. More a criticism of how the scene plays out rather than the Cauthons being able to do it I suppose. But maybe I'm being hypocritical as well, I dunno 😅

My point is that if that is the world they are going with, away from all the lore where channelers get fatigued and Healing doesn't magically restore you to full health with no downsides - I don't find it interesting. I don't find the battles or injuries at all engaging. I find it incredibly boring, in fact, because anyone who is hurt will be fine within moments. If you don't, that's fine, I'm glad you're enjoying those scenes. But to me it feels cheap and I just want to get to the next bit where the story progresses because we're wasting time with people acting all hurt and they'll be up and fine within moments. What story are they trying to tell, what are they trying to achieve by these moments? Why should we, the viewers, care if someone is stabbed through the gut, so long as a channeler is nearby? And I swear, if someone says "they're raising the stakes" I will tear the last remaining bits of hair out of my bald head. There are no stakes! Other than the ones impaling characters. I don't want to be watching those scenes thinking "well they'll be fine, let's move on", I want to be in the scene and worried for whoever is injured. Luke losing his hand was earned, by all the moments leading up to it. There are stakes because he has lost the duel, we're not worried in that moment about him "being a cripple" we're worried about all hope being lost, will Vader kill him, wait Vader tries to recruit him, what? The mechanical arm comes later, when the film is ending, so we leave the film knowing he'll be ok but there are much bigger issues in his story. By rights the more serious suspension of disbelief in that scene is when he drops from the ledge and down a garbage chute. But I think what you're misunderstanding about my complaints is that I am absolutely open to waving things away as part of fantasy or sci-fi, this is my favourite genre after all. I'm not looking for constant logical explanations in every scene, or characters exposition dumping that "this-is-how-things-work" in this world. I just want consistency and well written, earned scenes where I am engaged in the outcomes. I didn't care that Luke fell through the air and conveniently landed without significant injury, because all the way up to that felt earned and true to the characters and story they were telling. I'll stop ranting about it now, it is what it is in the show at this point - but like I said the next time it happens (and it will) I'll just be fast-forwarding through it.

maybe it's my Irish bias but I really hope we get a bit more of Aram and Ila, I have loved pretty much every scene of the Tuatha'an in the show and these actors are some of my favourites

just to address Alanna surviving these wounds etc. I could get on board (though I would still think it was silly) if they were going down the "Green Ajah, battle Ajah badass" thing with her managing to deal with these wounds. I would also be ok with this being a benefit of the Warder bond. But the fact is the show has set up Healing and these OTT injuries not having any impact with other characters. Nynaeve stabbed how many times by a Gray Man? And Liandrin with the swords through the chest from Alanna's warders. Neither character has a warder bond benefit. But they are fine (immediately after being Healed in the same scene in Liandrin's case). So because of everything else about the show with arrows and impaling and horrific wounds - I just don't believe the show now whenever someone is injured. Why should I care? Unless I see a head chopped off or characters literally say "they're dead" and looking sad, I will just assume they're gonna be fine. I'm sorry to be so hung up on this but it really does annoy me, in a season where I've generally been really happy with the adaptation.

As "just fine" as I found ep7, the promo for episode 8 has me pumped

they already established the dangers of channelers linking and drawing too much power in the S1 finale. They even had the CGI show Alanna's face a little like Amalisa. It's so easy to give a reason for Alanna not to be able to hold them off for infinity. they could also avoid this by having Aes Sedai suffer obvious fatigue from too much channeling, but so often in the show it's just channel channel channel with no downsides whatsoever. Wouldn't it be a nice touch to show that Alanna was completely wiped out and can't hold the Trollocs back any longer? I don't even mind if they injure her again but can we stop with the over the top massive spears or arrows through the gut and chest, is that so much to ask? Like how many people did we see go down with a single arrow in this battle, yet Alanna survives long enough to be Healed no matter how many arrows hit her or spears impale her - are Aes Sedai like Wolverine or something? they write themselves into corners and the only way out is "dramatic" injuries that are Healed within a scene or two. I think S3 has been great generally but sorry this sort of thing really really annoys me and I'm struggling to let it go 😂

First reaction is - ehhh, that was ok I guess I'm done on the healing stuff, honestly, I just switch off now and wait til the next scene. Like what's even the point of those scenes any more, it doesn't serve any function to the story whatsoever and it's just eye rollingly boring and zero stakes and... bleugh. I did like how the Cauthons got over the mini-block to attack Valda though. And while I'm sad to see him go (great actor, great villain), I don't think he does much in the story from here on out? Might be wrong there. I guess the biggest thing here is Loial, and I'm fine with it - but I didn't really like how it was done. The off-screen nature of it has me doubting it and I'd prefer if they just committed to it happening. Loial is great, we all love him, but functionally does he do much after the Two Rivers battle in the books? He just sort of follows them around and occasionally exposition dumps from memory, and the whole arc of him trying to avoid his mother/being married off. None of it is all that important to the story from memory, so again I'm fine with him being killed off (if that's what they have actually done). Padan Fain... meh. Didn't do enough across 3 seasons to set him up. Nothing landed here for me. I think his chat with Perrin is the most he's spoken in the entire show. Which was good, you know showing the Dark Lords plans and how he's actually a coward at heart. But... meh. Also agreed on no Fades being a weird one, I'm sure it's a budget thing but I really think having at least one Fade would have added to it. Faile - 5 stars, love the actress and love how she interacts with Perrin. The bit where she was following him and fighting behind him was great. I really didn't like how she brought up Laila but then the line of "feel guilt about the enemies you didn't kill" or something like that I was like "nice" haha I guess Perrin going with the Whitecloaks sort of speeds up that entire storyline from the books, again I'm fine with them moving these things around, but it didn't feel right in the scene, like Faile and the Two Rivers folk wouldn't let that happen no matter what Lord Perrin said. Best part about the episode was Aram and Ila and considering how short those scenes were generally, that's a testament to those actors in my opinion. Aram with the baby was heartbreaking, I teared up in that scene. I sort of hope that Aram doesn't stay as the blacksmith, though it was a nice moment from Mistress al'Vere. I also wish we had a scene where Ila can't look at him after the battle, or Perrin finds out what happened. Small thing but I think it would have really added to it. Sidenote, were the Aiel so vitriolic about the Lost Ones in the books? Bain and Chiad seemed to despise them when they arrived. I also wasn't sure on Bain and Chiad generally in this episode. I like the actresses but something felt off. Overall I would say this episode might be my least favourite of the season, which is disappointing considering how much I loved this sequence in the books. I feel like this arc has sort of missed Verin, or another Aes Sedai, to alleviate some of the bits of nonsense I feel happened with the Healing and Alanna. Those scenes really take me out of the moment - the ambush in this episode where Alanna gets impaled I was just like, oh right ok this again, rather than being in the scene. It's just frustrating.

that's fair, their thinking might have been that within the episode it would be a little confusing as the Gaebril reveal doesn't happen until the following episode. Not saying I agree with that but might have been a note from some studio exec or just a lack of trust in the audience from the writers' room or who knows what Like I say I generally agree with you, I didn't like the scene and would prefer a bit more subtlety on Morgase's character, it felt very caricature-like to me, but it's not something I'm overly hung up on in the wider context of the show. For my non-book reading girlfriend, it definitely worked to establish Morgase in that episode. It's only one person but whenever she reacts positively or doesn't nitpick at something, I tend to be able to let it go a lot more even if I don't particularly like it 😅