oh I totally agree on that haha, and I think the show did a very good job with Nynaeve and Lan for example

this is also fair, maybe this representation is much more realistic 😅

it's one thing not adhering to logic, it's another to seemingly disregard all of those things with no turmoil about it. He seems to have not struggled at all with who Lanfear really is and only wishing about who she once was and could be again. But, I'm hoping there will be some payoff there.

No doubt my book biases are hard to suppress at times, but for me I don't really believe that he is in love with her. Maybe that's book knowledge seeping through but there is something about their scenes that just don't seem real or genuine in terms of love or anything like it. The only time I felt Lanfear was being authentic on screen was the Mierin flashback. Every other scene feels manipulative, and I think what is frustrating me is Rand feels much too naive around her. Even giving Rand some grace for falling in love with Selene etc., he knows who she is now and what she is capable of, he knows the stories and what she has done even in Cairhien when he baited her into rescuing him. He knows from his Rhuidean visions what she did in releasing the Dark One. But he doesn't seem to account for that when talking to her in his dreams. Maybe he is but it's not coming across to me. And maybe this finally coming to a head with Egwene will mean things are said and are out in the open a bit more and it might pay off a little. But as it stands it's just frustrating for me 😅

I will also say: SEA FOLK! I didn't expect any exploration of them in the show (there is so much to adapt), but they were done brilliantly. Also: HOPPER!

I am really surprised at the extent of some of the negativity to this episode. It was a classic TV episode that comes after a big, epic one - it was quieter, it was revisiting characters we haven't seen, it was moving pieces around the board. And those episodes can be BORING - but I actually really enjoyed this one! It gave me a lot of things I feel has been missing from the show across three seasons, quiet moments for characters, letting things breathe a little bit, hints at these people's true character if they were not thrust into this insane, world-ending story. Was it perfect? No, not even close, and of course I have complaints as always haha - but for a TV show I think it did a very good job with this sort of episode. And I understand some folks being very very disappointed with the show as a whole, and maybe this episode sums up why for them, but I suppose I'm seeing it in the context of this specific season and I think this season is doing a very good job. I also thought that Egwene dream-hopping felt a little off, not because "oh she's able to do this", but these are people's dreams, extremely personal. I actually didn't see it as the show saying "look how awesome Egwene is", it more felt like a check-in on all our characters and how they see themselves. I found it interesting Nynaeve dreamed of home, of being the Wisdom, and not of Lan (I thought it was a nice touch). My main complaint with this sequence is Perrin did not notice her in his dream - either this means the Dream is not something for Perrin and the Wolves (which I would absolutely hate), or the writers' missed this beat (which I would be very disappointed with, and is another small misstep that keeps this show at a solid 6-7/10 rather than top tier adaptation). One thing I will say in general about adaptation choices and specifically with regards to Siuan and Moiraine. I think that expanding their personal relationship is a really good way to show the stakes that are involved here. TV shows and movies do not have the same time or ability to convey character motivations and full personalities and internal monologues that books do. Moiraine is a wonderful character in the books, of course. But giving her personal sacrifice in the show, seeing Siuan say she wished they never heard Gitara's prophecy - that gives the entire arc of both of their stories an extra bit of something for TV audiences. It helps to have two great actresses in these roles. As book lovers, we can sit here and complain that "Duty is enough! The Last Battle is enough of high stakes!" and sure, that's true - but is it? Isn't it more interesting to see what people are willing to give up personally, rather than high concept end-of-the-world stuff? I think I have said on this forum before - and spoilers for anyone who possible hasn't seen Avengers movies (if you are out there!). What makes Endgame so good and Iron Man's entire arc so brilliant is not that he is a good man who will do the good thing and sacrifice himself for the world because that is what good men do. What makes it great is what he feels is his personal failure, with Peter being snapped, his personal journey to fix what he feels he personally messed up. Coming back to WoT, I do not give a damn about a change like this for the show - all I care about is whether it's working within the show. And for me, Moiraine and Siuan is working brilliantly. An example of something I think is not working at all, at least not for me, is the Rand - Egwene - Lanfear triangle. For me, Rand in the books was always struggling with his identity, with who he is, with who he has to become as the Dragon. The madness was a tinge to that as well - is he too far gone? We have had hints of his identity struggle in the show and they tend to be my favourite Rand moments. We haven't had any of the madness I don't think. Any time Lanfear and Rand meet in the dream I am, frankly, bored - I don't find it at all engaging and I don't find it believable that Rand would be tempted by her in this way. I could have gotten on board with Rand believing that Lanfear could possibly be saved. But I suppose that Book-Rand is so embedded in my brain, I cannot believe he would ever engage with her like Show-Rand has. I could even get on board with this if we were seeing more of Rand "too far gone" things and Lanfear trying to exploit that. But it feels surface level, forbidden-love type drama, with very little depth in my opinion. For me, this is an aspect of the show that just hasn't worked at all, and I'm struggling with it any time this plot is being played out. And I know I will struggle in later episodes as Egwene confronts him about what she saw in the Dream.

I haven't had a chance to post my in depth thoughts, I want to re-watch the episode before ep5 and will hopefully get a more fleshed out post in then. But I did mention nitpicks and I suppose one is a really petty one, and one is more a comment on the series as a whole: Josha's accent in the Lewin scene really took me out of it initially, as an Irish person I had a horrible feeling and was worried we would see some Harfoot-level nonsense like in Rings of Power. But thankfully, that entire sequence is written and acted so well that I got past the accent very quickly (Although I still just think - why? None of the other sequences gave them accents like that? It was strange to me). But more significantly, I mentioned in the build up to season three that I hoped for some interaction between the Aiel and Tuatha'an in order to really help Rhuidean "land", so to speak. We had one small scene where Rhuarc stayed behind to bury the "Lost Ones". We had a "previously on" reminder before the episode. But I feel like some of the significance was a little lost because we haven't had any time with the Tinkers since S1, and while a lot of work has been done this season to flesh out the Aiel, something just didn't land quite like it should have for me, with regards to the Way of the Leaf, ji-e'toh, the Jenn Aiel and the splits that occurred. Really this isn't a critism of the episode itself, as a standalone I think it's done an incredible job in getting across significant world-building and lore. More, were the crumbs laid out sufficiently, or enough importance given to them through the first 2 seasons, in order for Rhuidean to be elevated to an all-time piece of fantasy television? Unfortunately I don't think so, and while I finished the episode super happy and impressed with what they had achieved, part of me still felt quite a bit of sadness at what could have been if the show had been more consistent through the first 2 seasons. Like I say I will hopefully get a rewatch and post done on all the positives (of which there are many!!) before ep5 drops.

Wow. I will post more detailed thoughts another time but can I just say that it is quite amazing how much dense lore and worldbuilding they are able to get across in such a short timeframe. I have some complaints of course 😅 but I think as a standalone episode it is an incredible piece of work. bravo to Josha and the entire team on this

It's got to be Asmodean in my opinion. How else will Rand learn? I thought they might give Logain that role but he needs to be healed, and I think things are moving too slowly in that regard to get Rand where he needs to be. So really we are left with Asmodean. I think the thing with both Mesaana and Demandred is that the current Forsaken in the show can fulfill their roles. They don't do anything in particular that can't be taken on by another Forsaken for show purposes, which gives the current Forsaken more to do and makes them more of a threat (particularly Sammael). Whereas Asmodean's role is so specific, I struggle to see how the show replaces him.

Thanks for the replies - I think what confused me was "Where they came from centuries ago", it implied to me that Elayne already had this knowledge of where the Seanchan came from as opposed to figuring that out. But I may also be misremembering something from S2 and what they've learned about the Seanchan up to this point!

The Black Ajah murder spree is really the only thing I really really didn't like about this episode. It breaks a bit of immersion for me for the reasons Mailman says about it being such a public move imo. There are some other small things I took issue with, however I think this episode was the best so far this season. - I love Rhuarc and Bair! Such good casting and great character building moments so far. A good indicator of how quickly you can establish a character with small bits of dialogue and actions (Rhuarc burying the Lost Ones). - "That is Wise One's business" hahaha - Mat and the quarterstaff! I just wish there was a bit more of an audience to it. But it was really well choreographed, I think they are trying to establish that Mat was capable even before the memories issue, but he's definitely accessing something else now. One small thing, when he speaks the Old Tongue, I don't see any translations for it, is that the same for everyone else? It's a bit of a strange choice for the show if so in my opinion. - Faile! Great casting as well. I was surprised at Lord Luc's appearance, I for sure thought he would be cut. - Some Perrin ta'vereness going on with getting the Two Rivers folks to stay? - I have watched this episode twice and when Nynaeve and Elayne are figuring out Tanchico, before the Grey Man attack. Elayne says something like "Tanchico is next to Falme, where the Seanchan landed, where they came from centuries ago". What? Did I misunderstand her lines here? Because if not I have no idea what that's supposed to mean or how that helps them decide to go to Tanchico. - Suspicion being cast on Verin this early doesn't quite sit right with me but I suppose they do need to condense things, my girlfriend picked up on it right away and I've just said how really they can't trust anyone, so it's good to question everyone. - Rand and Lanfear in the Dream, I think they are really going down the love triangle route with Rand, Lanfear and Egwene and honestly I do not like it at all. I also didn't like that scene in general, but Natasha O'Keeffe really sells these scenes in fairness. Overall I think this season is very strong so far. There are choices made and bits that I haven't liked, but overall I'm much more positive about things than I was at this point of S2 for example. And from most reviews I believe this next episode is one of the best. I am nervous because Rhuidean is my favourite (and I know many people feel the same), but I hope they do it justice.

As mentioned I think the biggest issue is the Healing power creep. I appreciate the idea of Nynaeve being able to Heal the mind which could be a great arc, but I still have an issue with the lack of stakes so long as an Aes Sedai is nearby to Heal. The Grey Man on Nynaeve really was overboard. I am not too bothered about big displays of the power outside of the Healing, although Moiraine's display at the end of S2 just didn't work for me within the story (I really didn't enjoy the S2 finale and thought that power display was a bit weird and pointless). It doesn't bother me that she was able to do it. But I do agree that the apparent lack of fatigue is an issue for me as well. But I am willing to let this play out a little. Whereas with Healing I think they have established how powerful it is, so the show has given itself a problem I don't really see how they can fix at this point.

Not sure if he was in the intro but he's definitely mentioned later on by Gaebril to Elayne, right? Fwiw I agree that the cold open didn't sit quite right with me, not so much that Morgase made that decision but more how it was made - making them swear to her and "all is forgiven" etc. That felt too much like a villain twisting their moustache to me. I can understand in the context of a Succession War that those you defeat face death, but yeah, it felt like a "twist" that didn't need to be done in that way. It's sort of an example of things that have happened across the 3 seasons of the show where I feel like they've gone for something that doesn't particularly work for me, that feels sort of cheap and unearned. But, my book knowledge has spoiled me there as my partner loved the scene and was fully engaged with Morgase as a character for the entire episode. And she properly believes her when she threatens bringing an army to Tar Valon later in the episode. So in that respect, for establishing Morgase as a character for television - it worked. No doubt Olivia Williams helps in that respect! In terms of the compulsion, I understand the need to pick it apart, it does seem a little overpowered to me and if you start to think about how it functions like Mailman has pointed out (in terms of this guy appearing a month ago but he's apparently been around for 10 years), there are holes there. Was Bryne questioning things are suspicious/resistant to the Compulsion, is that part of why he had to go? How long does the compulsion last if the weave isn't tied off? Will we get a scene later in this season where Elayne mentions Gaebril to Nynaeve, who says she had never mentioned him once before? How detailed are these false memories? It's something I am willing to see play out a little before having a full judgement on it. But, as it stands I think it's overpowered. However I do agree with the post earlier in the thread that sometimes you need a bad guy to be able to something just as a function of being the bad guy. Rule of Cool and all that. I think they could have established it a bit better but at the same time I like all the scenes with Gaebril, and I liked the little hints that something is off with the pauses before Leane says his name, before Elayne greets him again etc. So as part of the show, it's probably worked - this is where I think the casting has helped the show get over some cracks. And again it establishes the Forsaken as capable and dangerous, and that they don't all have the same sort of skills - my partner is most definitely worried about them which is a nice change from the books at times.

completely agree and even from a show-only perspective, it adds to the "who is a DF' element - when evil people are revealed to just be evil and not tied to the Shadow, it adds a layer of complexity on character motivations and I think is rewarding for a show-only watcher. This world isn't simply good people versus the Dark One and his followers.

Merging those things make sense for television. I was a little worried they would merge Machin Shin and Mashadar as they are sort of similar "entities", and I could see it being a note from the studio that they are repetitive (even though we all know from the lore they are very much not the same). But bubbles of evil/Dreamshards is the sort of merging I can get behind and definitely adds something to the show in that they get a danger across for a TV audience without confusing things too much I think But I agree on the DO, I am hopeful for some indication of the DO's touch on the world in S3 because as enjoyable as the Forsaken have been so far, they are not the big bad!