23 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

Reacher released all 8 episodes at once in its first week. WOT only released 3 episodes its first week.  It would be expected that Reacher should then have more that twice the total minutes streamed during its first week compared to Wheel of Time, if they were equally popular.  However, the point of this article is that Reacher had 1.84 billion minutes streamed compared to Wheel of Time's 1.16 billion minutes streamed.   WOT had 367 million minutes per episode streamed.  Reacher had 230 million minutes per episode streamed.  And that is only shown in the United States. WOT has good outside the US appeal. I don't know about Reacher.

SO maybe I am reading wrong, but it didn't just beat out WOT week 1 numbers. It beat out the entire viewing numbers... in 3 days. 

https://comicbook.com/tv-shows/news/wheel-of-time-beat-out-reacher-new-amazon-prime-series/   

Hard to do an apple to apples comparison since Reacher isn't a fantasy series. HOwever, Amazon took a drastically different approach to this series... the stuck to the source material.... and the speak for themselves. 

On 2/5/2022 at 6:53 PM, wastingtime said:

Ideally yes, but many things would make the Reacher novels much simpler to translate to screen faithfully than the WOT novels, surely? 

100% easier to adapt. No need for CGI, no complicated magic system etc. 

FWIW I watched REACHER on Amazon last night which is based on a novel. It was almost  scene for scene adaptation, and it was AWESOME. ALso has a 96%  audience score with an 82% critics score. 

Lesson? Stick to the damn source material!

37 minutes ago, Andra said:

 

Yes, it had a good premiere.

But demand decreased each week after that first three-episode release.

 

Whether that trend was alarming enough for Amazon to take note and step in to address any of the concerns mentioned here and elsewhere?  WAFO. ?

Hadn't seen this. The drop in week-to-week demand should be alarming to everyone who wants to see this show continue.  

On 2/1/2022 at 4:45 PM, Andra said:

Just to point out:

The $1 billion is profit.

The film cost a little over $300 million to make, and grossed $1.3 billion worldwide.  It's less profit than they expected given tFA's performance, but it isn't a loss. 

 

Only in a franchise like Star Wars could the most profitable movie of the year be considered a disappointment.

 

Hell, not even Solo actually lost money.  But it came close.  And it did the worst of all the Star Wars films.

I concede that Jedi made extremely poor profits (in star wars terms) as opposed to a loss. That billion dollars profit was low enough to send the franchise into panic mode, then Solo came out. 

And Solo LOST 76 Million. Panic turns to crisis. 

Again, Amazon isn't here yet. But I think they will be with WoT, and already worried that LoTR will follow the same trend. 

https://deadline.com/2019/04/box-office-bombs-2018-solo-a-star-wars-story-mortal-engines-wrinkle-in-time-robin-hood-nutcracker-1202591271/

13 hours ago, Humbugged2 said:

How is making a $ 1 bn dollars a loss

The fact that it earned half of Force Awakens. 

https://deadline.com/2018/03/star-wars-the-last-jedi-box-office-movie-profits-1202351603/ 

"The $417.5M profit on Last Jedi is -46% from Force Awakens $780.1M." 

And then the last film earned even less. 

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-box-office-profit-comparison/  

There are also things to consider like toy sales etc. Those tanked. 

So If I am using this as an example for WoT..... if Season 2 still has decent numbers, but the viewership is 46% less.... then the show will be in crisis mode, Just like Star Wars was after Last Jedi. Right now there is no reason for Amazon to panic.... really. THough I would argue that this IP is following the same trend that Star Wars did. 

They def went a different direction than say Spiderman or Ghostbusters which honored the origional content and earned huge profits. They are trying something origional. I think it will ultimately fail. But right now Amazon believes in this new direction so we will see. 

16 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

 

*cough* last jedi *caugh*

Absolutely. This will follow the same course. The only difference is that DIsney lost money on Jedi and had to try to fix it with Rise (ugh). 

Amazon hasn't lost money yet. 

18 minutes ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

I would not quote the RT scores as good.

 

1) Critics scores are mostly worthless.  Big businesses buy those all the time.  If you look into the critics comments many of them weren't that kind. 

 

2) 64% and falling on RT isn't very good.  If you dig into the comments they are getting raked over the coals.  What you are seeing is the positive blitz for the first 3 episodes and heavy promotion giving way to actual viewers.

Totally fair. 

My point remains that all of the data tells Amazon that WoT is a success. Rafe has no reason to change. 

Season 2 will be make or break. Personally, I think it will break. 

9 minutes ago, Andra said:

The answer to that question will depend on a couple of trends, and how they balance out.

 

We know (or at least suspect) that there aren't enough original book fans for the show to rely even largely on them.  So Rafe (and Amazon) expect the non-readers to like it so much that they compensate for any loss of readers.

 

So these are the trends that matter:

Non-readers who liked it enough to keep watching, but have no intent to ever start on the books.  And who don't care about the opinions of readers.

Non-readers who liked it enough to start on the books, and then decide whether to keep watching based on that experience.  These people are much more likely to care about the opinions of friends and family who are readers.

 

Please note that, unlike for Game of Thrones (for various reasons), even the people in that first group most likely only watched in the first place because readers encouraged them to.

 

And what I think will be the deciding factor regarding the ultimate success of the series into the second season and beyond will be that second group. 

 

The trend that has been seen in that group is this:

Non-readers liking the show enough to start on the books now that the season is over, and hating what the show did to the story once they read the source material.

 

If the people who read the book after watching the show are alienated at the same rate as original readers, I think the show is dead.  Because the loss of them from the viewership will be greater than the gain from people who won't ever read it.

Correct, my point is that right now, Rafe has not real data that would convince him to change. I feel like the writing is on the wall. But season 2 will tell. 

I think we have to be fair though...... 

Right now WoT is well reviewed (overall), had millions of viewers, and an 82% critics score (64% audience) on Rotten Tomatoes. 

Amazon is happy. Rafe's job is to make them happy. Not those of us on this or other forums. 

However, Season 2 will be the test. Will enough of those viewers return to keep Amazon happy? I doubt it. 

18 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Consider the bragging contest they had in front of Tuon in the last book.

 

I love these books. ? 

58 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

You should recall how villified men that could channel were. Even those that were decent men at first. The mention of one man who woke up one morning and realized he sleep-channeled and flattened his whole village.

Excellent point. Mat, as a character, did a lot for the plot in this respect. That even good friends found male channlers an abberation. 

1 hour ago, ilovezam said:

I don't think Lan would ever be cool with abandoning Moiraine for love either. Maybe they could have had Nynaeve lead Lan to Moiraine using some saidar tracking shenanigans (instead of "she has a tell") through the Blight they could have given Lan some cool action sequences to protect her, and then Rand can take Tarwin's Gap like he's supposed to T_T

Yeah... when I first heard him describe that scene I loved it. I still think it would be a beautiful stand alone moment.

However, the cornerstone of Lan's personality is his belief in duty before self. That moment would have hone against everything he stood for.  

15 hours ago, Andra said:

But the only reason he knew he had to go to Rhuidean or die is because he didn't leave Tear when he could have.  Leaving Rand after discussing it with him and basically getting his permission is not "abandoning" him.

 

Having other motivations doesn't change what he actually did.

And his "ideals" preventing him from leaving is the entire point.

 

Book Mat had those ideals.  Show Mat apparently doesn't.

You are absolutely correct that show Matt is more of a low life than book Mat. I’m just trying to point out that we don’t have to pretend that book met with a saint in order to dislike the changes that were made in the showI’m just trying to point out that we don’t have to pretend that book met with a saint in order to dislike the changes that were made in the show

His smirk when talking about Joshua's acting ability. 

?

Edit: And then again when he talks about Perrin's arc. 

8 minutes ago, Skipp said:

Mat is with Rand at that point because he was told he had to go to Rhuidean or else he would die.  I don't doubt Mat's friendship in tSR but lets not pretend that he didn't have other motivations at that time.

 

And he did try to leave Rand after tSR but a mixture of Ta'vereness and his own ideals always stopped him.  Only after the battle of Caerhein did Rand put his foot down and told Mat he wasn't going to be able to leave.

jinx ?

12 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

But he never leaves him...until Rand either leaves him or orders him. He was there in the Waste, and despite the dangers, went with him to Rhuidean. A constant presence until told to go and find "Miss Prim" and not to leave her side until he escorts her "well rounded bottom" to the throne of Andor.

 

He always says a lot of...stuff, run away, get away, and never does. But once he gives his word...he keeps it.

Which is why we love him. 

But again let's be honest. He didn't go to Rhuidean for Rand, he went because he was told to by the foxes (snakes? can't remember who he saw first)  in spite of being with Rand. 

HE tries to run away from battles.... but Rand's Taveren nature pulls his back as much as his inner sense of loyality. 

He is the very archetype of a reluctant hero. 

The actor leaving was a problem to which there was no elegant solution. 

Perhaps talented, experienced writers could have managed the problem better.... but honestly who knows.

16 hours ago, Skipp said:

The Great Hunt, Chapter 11, Glimmers in the Pattern;

 

After stopping for the night on the hunt for Fain Ingtar gives Rand the bundle from Moiraine.  Rand sneaks into the woods and finds it to be the Dragon Banner.  Mat and Perrin follow him and find out he can channel.  Mat tells Rand that he won't stay near him much on their journey, "you just are not the same any more", and leaves.

 

Now while this is solved by Rand/Lanfear using the Portal stone it doesn't change Mat's initial reaction is to not be around Rand as much as possible.  By the time Rand and Mat reunite in Cairhein I don't recall this plot point being brought up again though. 

 

I may have been stretching by using the word abandon but it is not like Mat could leave the Shienarians as they were his only hope to retrieve the dagger.

16 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

"...may have?"

There was no abandonment here.

You misrepresented Mat because you prefer Rafe's rotten characterization.

NOw look..... I did not love the Mat in the Show.... but let's not pretend that Mat was loyal AF to Rand. Mat spends quite a lot of time avoiding Rand and trying to stay away from him and everything that has to do with the Dragon. I seem to remember his reluctance in taking Asha'man in his ranks even though they gained him a tactical advantage. 

Of all of them, Mat's prejudice against men able to channel lasted the longest. 

2 hours ago, WhiteVeils said:

The problem is you're using the term 'objectively well done'.  It's not objective.  It's subjective.

 

So, to take the flip side, you can't say "David sucks and was lazily and sloppily done"  just because you don't like it or it doesn't match what you thought the statue of David ought to look like.

David took many more hours to craft, however.  It took time and money.  Those are objective measurements.  You can measure that...that's objective.  You can survey the audience and say 'The consensus of opinion regarding this piece of art is XXX', and if your survey is done correctly, that is objective.  You can be an expert in the field, and say, David used this special technique and this special technique and this special technique in the carving of it.

It sucks or it's good are opinions. Time and $$ are objective standards. Techniques used is based on an experts evaluation.  And consensus is a plurality of opinion.

It has had plenty of time and money invested in it, and many of the people working on it are considered very skilled. 

Plurality of opinion general opinion is that it's not perfect, but it doesn't suck  (currently 64% on rotten tomatoes)

Plurality of expert opinion is that it is good (82% on rotten tomatoes)

Industry professionals like the podcast initially cited spend hours and hours explaining what techniques were used in the storytelling and why, and how that makes it good.

None of that adds up to 'Objectively bad'.  The 'Bad' is an opinion. You're welcome to it, but you can't claim it as fact.  You can claim that maybe you weren't the target audience?  I don't know.
 

I see what you are saying about experts. 

I also think that 99% of humans don't need an expert to understand that the Statue of David is a superior work of art, especially when compared to a banana nailed to a board (or whatever it was). 

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

https://winteriscoming.net/2022/01/23/4-ways-the-wheel-of-time-improved-books-robert-jordan-failed/

Thanks for sharing! I thought this was a very balanced review of the highs and lows. HOnestly it is hard to disagree with his assessment. 

He actually made a very compelling arguement in favor of Mat's change.... which makes me more sympathetic to changes I have hated throughout the season. 

The main difference between the author, who is excited to watch Season 2, and myself is that the negatives outweight the positives. 

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

 Now, there is a question of if they taught her channeling vs just custom, culture and the dream.

 

Is there though?

4 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I thought it was a few days, and then correspondence learning as needed?  (I might well be wrong.)

 

...

 

At this point in time, isn't all we've seen is Nynaeve mass-heal (and maybe heal herself! (I think it was not Egwene)), Egwene be reasonably competent at battle, and both act as batteries.  I personally do not think this is overblown.

I remember Egwene being with the wise ones for months. To the point where several of the wise women were trying to get her to marry one of the Aiel and stay with them. 

9 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Well…Either they will become less powerful, stay the same over powered as they are now or become even more powerful….

 

Now which do you see happening going forward?

SOmeone has already mentioned this and I think it is smart.... 

If the writers are smart, they will use Nyn's near death experience as the source of her block. Which, IMO would be an improvement over "anger".