1 hour ago, EmreY said:

 

How many pages do Egwene and Nynaeve spend training in the White Tower in the books?

 

 

You are correct, they weren't at the White Tower for very long, but Egwene did spend considerable time training with the Wise Ones. 

Nynaeve did not have enough time there, but I also remember that being to her detriment. She was good at healing, but not much else. 

On 1/21/2022 at 3:55 PM, Cauthonfan4 said:

and make it a crutch to do what the writers need to do.

Then rhey shouldn't have named it Wheel of Time. They should have written there own new show. You can't complain about getting comparisons when you literally use the name. 

 

We were told we were getting a Wheel of time TV series. We were lied too.

I promise I get what you are saying. 

I do not like this series because exactly this.  I am simply saying that there are two different critiques of the show: 

1. THe show is unrecognizable as Wheel Of Time. 

2. The show in-and-of-itself suffers from poor writing/inconsistency/poor time management etc. 

When presenting our disappointments with the show, I think it is important to seperate those two. 

For example, I Could have lived with issue 1 if there wasn't an issue 2. For some, issue 1 is a dealbreaker. 

32 minutes ago, RhienneAgain said:

I wonder if a lot of the disagreement over the Nynaeve mass heal scene could be just down to channeling being a bit different in the TV show compared to the books. We're all discussing the scene based around in-book rules (some very complex and nuanced).

 

In the show, talents may not be a thing (for example, we've already seen Egwene heal neardeath). Perhaps show characters don't have particular talents in different areas - they're just more or less effective at all channeling based on their relative strength. Would certainly simplify a very complicated magic system.

Agreed. I think even naysayers of the show have to keep conversations in the context of the show. You are totally right that so far we have only talked about power levels and not talents. Will be interesting to see if that is something that is discussed. If I remember correctly, Egwene's affinity for "earth" made her a valuable commodity to the Seanchan. 

11 minutes ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Will Accepted even be even in the series? Just possible they may skip that entire training arc.

THe show took the time to show that Amalisa had the serpent ring without the stone. I assumed that signalled that she is accepted. So I would assume since they took the time to show that, that we will learn about the novice, accepted, and aes sedai hierarchy. 

4 hours ago, Cauthonfan4 said:

Maybe, but they cut so much potential development with axing all 3 that we saw no real personal growth from most of them. Nynaeve obviously got lots of personal story and badass moments but her character hasn't really changed beyond her relationship with Lan. The rest...well its even worse. 

 

Exactly. There is a reason that tales of a Hero's Journey and coming of age stories have been around for 1000s of years..... they work. They are true to the human condition. 

YOu can say that this type of story has "been done". OK fair enough. 

Why did you want to tell this story then? Why adapt it when what made it soooooo good  was the characters themselves? The plot is basic, it is the characters, their growth, their personal struggles etc. that make it beautiful. 

Take Egwene: She is  the adventure seeking, innocent dreamer at the beginning of the story. She isn't jaded or mature.... just spunky and full of ability. Watching that be stripped from her during her enslavement was brutal, it made me love her because I watched her be hurt and the innocent girl die. 

Anyways I am rambling, but that is an example of coming of age.... a story of a person exiting innocence and engaging with a world that is wonderful and cruel at the same time. 

I really think that the show made a mistake by skipping all of that. 

14 hours ago, Ralph said:

4. We have Accepted leading circles of Novices in the books in Salidar iirc. 

Forgot about that! Thanks for the remind. 

Still trying to remember if Accepted were taught combat......  but regardless the show has  decided that an accepted has learned how to do that. 

Which brings me to another question....

If an accepted can do these things, how will the show differentiate between accepted and full aes sedai? 

37 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

I'm unsure of your argument here.  I suggested Amalisa was trained in terms of knowing how to weave and was essentially using Nynaeve and Egwene's power.  Her being personally weak isn't really relevant to the point being made

I have read the books several times, but it has been about two years so everyone can correct me if I am wrong.... but combat was NOT EVER something that was taught to a novice or an Accepted. 

23 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

 

Apparently all of this was done with practical effects.... which is freaking awesome. 

4 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

In a peaceful and calm situation?  absolutely agree.  In a situation where monsters out of nightmare are charging down a hill at me?  You better believe I'm going to throw in with the only person that was actually pushing them back.  When if she's right I'm saving myself AND my village and if she's wrong?  Well if she's wrong and nice I can double back to help my people.  If she's wrong and evil, I don't have the ability to fight her regardless. 

Fair Enough. ? 

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

 

Because Moraine used the comparison just a short time earlier and then he witnessed a feat that he knows he couldn't come close to pulling off?  Kind of like how you might say someone who pulls of a particularly impressive feat is "On fire" without them actually being covered in flames? 

I see where you are coming from.... I really do. 

But

Let's say the person pulled off an incredible feat using invisible fire. And (per your example)  I said that impressive feat was "on fire".

Everyone around me would  reasonably assume I could see the fire. 

38 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Been over this one too.  He's having a callback to what Moraine said to him, he's watched her heal a dozen mortal wounds in an instant while also cutting his weaves and throwing debris everywhere.  The phrase is perfectly appropriate even if she didn't also happen to make any light.

You not liking something =/= an actual plothole.

HOw does seeing dirt fly around translate to you saying "brighter than the sun".  When on screen we see (if I remember correctly) a light bubble around her. 

It is totally illogical to say that he wasn't responding to what we saw on screen when he is EXACTLY  describing what is on screen.  

Just because you like the show doesn't mean there aren't plot holes. 

You aren't wrong for liking the show, but can't we admit when there are issues? Doing so doesn't invalidate the fact that you like it. ? 

38 minutes ago, KakitaOCU said:

Yeah, why would they listen to a lady who says monsters are after them when the monsters literally show up and charge them?  Weird.   Let's try again.  You not liking something =/= an actual plothole.

We really can't agree that her suddenly... .with no prior interaction... announcing that they might be the DR and have to come with her, and them just agreeing isn't realistic? We really can't agree on that? THat it is unrealistic for 3 young men... one who hasn't buried his wife, one whose father is injured, and the other who is the sole provider for his sisters to just leave on a stranger's say so? With no prior interaction? 

Again, giving ground and admitting to flaws doesn't invalidate your enjoyment of the show. I am glad you liked it. Keep liking it!!! 

But you can like something and admit fault. 

Just like I can say that while I did not like the show, the show did a far superior job building the romance between Lan and Nynaeve. Those scenes were my favorite. 

Something super interesting (to me) about how this show was received.... 

There was a couple of new subreddits on LOTR news yesterday and today... Amazon finally released the name of the series. Anyways, in each of these forums it took about no time at all for the comments to turn to... "I was excited about this but WoT was so bad I have lost hope." 

One or two comments would have been unoticeable.... but that theme kept popping up over and over again. Maybe only toxic fans are on the internet.... or maybe Amazon made a mistake in releasing WoT first...

1 minute ago, KakitaOCU said:

Just because we don't KNOW an answer doesn't make it a contradiction or a plot hole.  Not until the series is complete.

Now, if at the end that's never explained, then I'd grant weak writing, but considering we're able to find multiple solutions to the issue without much effort and we're on season 1 of a theoretical 8, it's not unexpected to have gaps in our knowledge.

I think you are right in many cases.... but here.... they gave us an explaination. They give her a backstory. 

It just doesn't make sense. 

Which is a plot hole. 

Like Logain saying "brighter than the sun" is a plot hole. 

Like the lads going with Moraine when they have NEVER SPOKEN TO HER OR LAN is a plot hole. 

We have been given lots of information by the show that just doens't make an logical sense within the show itself. 

1 hour ago, Guire said:

 

 

The biggest story thing driving me insane  currently is Nyn grabbing knife in Winespring entrance of Lan.  No one else grabs a weapon.  This version of EF seems much less shut off from outer world. Aes Sedai cant sense other channelers so Moraine didnt set her spidey sense tingling.  A short bladed knife is a very aggressive self defense weapon. Book Nyn"s stick has lots of utility for someone foraging in woods and can be used as a corrective tool with a large range of consequences.  You can tap someone with a stick to get their attention all the way to knocking them unconscious.  A 4 inch blade can only be used to kill or maim someone.  I think this was again just a sloppy way to make her look protective but it went too far.

Yeah I am with you. 

I have been thinking a lot about how the show crippled itself by not allowing us to see the EF5 come of age on screen. They all began worldly, extremely powerful, sexually experienced, and criminals (Mat a thief, Perrin a killer). None have that small town niavete that gradually gets washed away by the realities of the world. There is little room for them to grow in wisdom, have new experiences, or discover that their conceptions of the world were wrong. 

And none of this has anything to do with screen time. 

15 hours ago, expat said:

 

 

Finally, I've asked this a couple of time, but never got an answer.  If you are in a group and go to a large location, normally you set a meeting location in case you get lost.  When you realize you (or members of your group are lost), do you wander about endlessly looking for them or head to the meeting location?

I agree with you, once MOraine was in the position with the Red Ajah she had little choice but to move to TV. 

However, I think it is a fair critique to say that Moraine giving the boys the coins int he book showed foresight, intelligence, and planning.... all which built her character. 

Also.... I remember her dogged faith in the pattern..... her faith that by following one coin (boy) that the pattern would deliver the others. This also built her character and displayed the depth of her faith and belief. 

The TV show missed an opportunity to showcase that. 

23 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

 

I do think 7 is acceptable for a first season? My favourite show of all time, the US Office, was probably a 4 or 5 in the first season.

 

It's not what I want or hope for the future, or what I wanted at the start (but I've said before on this forum, I actually worried/expected the show to be outright awful on every single level) but as a starting point, yeah I'm ok with it. 

 

I'm not comparing it to GoT (what Amazon say is up to them) and I'll talk about changes from the books and the problems with the show and theorise about ways the show could improve going forward. I don't see why we have to get into this territory every single time of "you defenders say this!" and "you haters say this!" 

Excellent point. I was not a fan of this season and not sure I will come back. 

However, you are totally right about The Office, and I would throw in Parks N Rec. I LOVE that show, but season 1 was dreadful and none of the actors had found their footing. 

So you are right, history tells us there is a ton of room for improvement. 

14 minutes ago, ashi said:

I am not sure I understand.

 

Sword training is a way for Rand to learn and master the Flame and the Void - and Oneness (which moreover is of spiritual significance), which is necessary for his mastery of Saidin, and ultimately of himself, and arguably gives him his intuitive thoughtless (in a positive way) ability to use the One Power.

 

Sword training and not pure Channeling / meditation / whatever also allows Rand to be his body as well as his mind. This improves, along with mental reflexes, the physical reflexes that are necessary for his survival.

 

The life and death confrontation that is a sword fight requires and teaches non-conceptual focus (including the body) in a way that channeling exercises do not.

 

Lastly, he should practice the sword because it makes him feel good, no? ?

I think that the sword training and his journey to becoming a sword master were a part of his arc and his growth. It was a visible symbol that illustrated how different he became from the kid who had no idea what to do with his daddy's sword. RJ used his sword training to symbolize his journey from boy to man. IMO that metaphor would work well on the TV medium as well... so I do think that seeing him train in the sword would serve his character on the show really well. 

3 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

Sounds like a problem with writing...or to be fair, a lamentable sign of the times regarding attention span. (And you know that what's said on that is sadly true)

Fair points.

Also just life. THere is a crap ton of content out there and only so much time to view it. With three kids and a career I am lucky to make it to 9 PM before falling to sleep!

3 hours ago, fra85uk said:

I am not talking About adaptation. I am talking About in-show qualities. The main defects of the show do not stem from poor adaptation but originate from poor filming, poor storytelling, poor dialogue, underwhelming action (exception: ep7 cold open), overuse of tropes like fake-out deaths.

My thoughts this morning: 

So I am with you. I think that is show is poorly done in almost every way, and not just IMO but objectively. 

Then I started watching Cobra Kai again (we cancelled Netflix a couple of years ago so am picking it back up). 

Oh man I love this show! But it is full of tropes, older actors who have seen better days, 1 dimensional bad guys, and (what should be cringy) high school karate brawls. 

And somehow.... its awesome. 

So maybe it is all subjective. 

10 hours ago, EmreY said:

I must confess, I still find it difficult to understand why channellers should duel with swords.  Perhaps in extremis, but why else?

Duel or train?

Duel... sport?

Train.... It is extremely beneficial for people to learn focus and discipline in a veriety of ways. LIke pro athletes doing yoga. 

Also, Aes Sedai find the need for swords.. which is why they have warders. 

21 hours ago, Gothic Flame said:

I'm a little bemused by that as well.

If I'm watching good stuff I want more. 

Come to think of it...sounds like an argument for less seasons as well. What is another season but a continuation of more of the story?

I'm kinda pissed that it seems anymore productions get smaller and smaller. 

So at first I was with you and everyone else saying this is silly.... but then I thought about my personal behavior...... 

I will binge a show and then get... bored. Even good ones like Homeland just got old for me.

My husband and I were in the middle of watching The Sopranos (him for the first time) and we just left it one day. 

So maybe they are right?

16 minutes ago, EmreY said:

 

I probably wouldn't.

 

Anyway, the point of the exercise is not to include or exclude anyone, but just that an exercise, my exercise, to determine what could be expressed in 100 words.  I did it because it's easy and short enough, but also because this is the sort of thing that needs to be done whenever someone tries to tell another's tale.

I promise that I wasn't trying to say anything negative about what you are doing in ANY way. 

Just engaging the point that Moraine could be left of out because she is unimportant....... I don't see how she could any more than Gandalf. 

That is all. 

Promise ? 

8 hours ago, EmreY said:

 

Yes, I agree with you (and would say she is important in other ways) for the books.

 

But in my 100 word precis, she doesn't exist.

 

BY this logic you don't include Gandalf in your "100 word precis" of The Hobbit. 

10 hours ago, Skipp said:

Between the end of book 1 and the end of the series, how important is it that Moiraine can channel?

 

Off the top of my head there are 3 big moments and a handful of smaller.  Introducing us to Balefire by killing some darkhounds in tDR, Balefiring Be'lal also in tDR, and joining the circle with Nynaeve and Rand at the climax.  Smaller moments can include healing Rand and washing him of exhaustion during tSR/FoH books.

 

During Book 2 I don't even know if we see Moiraine channel during the book, maybe during the Trolloc attack on Fal'dara but that scene is unlikely to happen in the show.

 

Whether they keep Moiraine shielded/stilled past season 2(I believe she is shielded btw) doesn't affect the plot all that much.  While introducing us to Darkhounds and balefire are semi-imporant and very important respectively it doesn't have to be Moiraine who does that.  I have said before that I think Be'lal is the most cuttable Forsaken of the bunch.  Yes, these are 2 kickass Moiraine moments but every character is going to lose moments in the show and these are not super important.

 

By the end of the show when Moiraine returns, assuming she is stilled, Nynaeve can heal her.

 

Honestly of more concern to me would be the smaller moments with Rand and Moiraine during the Aiel arc but she could provide the same role without being the one to heal Rand after every encounter.  Maybe this is why they are setting up Egwene to have some healing ability.

 

My personal theory is that season 2 for Moiraine will be similar to what she does in tGH but will involve Suian unknotting the shield on Moiraine before she is deposed. 

1. Her arc with the wise ones is dependent on her ability to channel and her position as an Aes Sedai. 

2. Let's agree that all of your points are valid, logical and true. Still doesn't make this a good story line worth exploring. There are still only 8 episodes next season, and we are going to spend book 2 and maybe 3 watching Moraine deal with this?

There are so many other things I would rather watch. 

2 hours ago, Skipp said:

"with EASE" meaning the certain deaths of 3/5's of them and a possible death of a 4th had healing not been immediately provided.  Also requiring the strongest channeler in 1000 years and the potential of a another benchmark channeler.

"With EASE"

Wiping out 1000s of the enemy while only sustaining 3 deaths.

Seemed like it was pretty easy.